"Corporate Uniform" Gone!!

[billford1]

If it's all about displaying the bling, here's an idea:

Standardize on a specific blue blazer, and specific gray pants for uniformity reasons. Allow ribbons and a badge or two on the blazer, use the black nameplate with rank on it. Keep the crest, or don't. Problem solved.

The blazer's appearance isn't really that much different from the AF service coat that McPeak brought in. It's basically a standard suit coat. We put ribbons, badges, stars, bars, birds and leaves on it already, and no one thinks it's bad looking.

Uses an existing uniform, just changes the rules a little for it. People in blazers get to wear decs. Even across the board.

Is the Blazer Combo really considered a uniform? I've always considered it a substitute. I don't mind wearing mine because I could spend a little extra and get the nicest looking navy blue blazer I could find and combine it with dress slacks that aren't the same shade as the gray slides. If new rules for the Blazer combo are applied I think what you'll see is a lot of Seniors take off the CAP crest and name plate for whatever occasion and just show up with the suit and tie to stand along side the rest of the crowd in Class A's. If new standards are applied for the Blazer my bet is most will not purchase it.  I wonder how some AF folks who may be reading this forum are reacting to it.  As I say this let me state that I mean no disrespect to anyone on this forum. It's just that what many years ago we looked like one CAP. If CAP/USAF Ok'd the CSU in 2006 what could have happened that has made the CSU look like such a mistake  that making the decision to make it go away has such urgency?

[PhotogPilot]

I am not sure what you all are being offended by. Is it this line, "Corporate style uniforms do not exist  to allow those who may not wear the USAF--‐style to have a military--‐looking alternative", and if so, why? Can anyone cite where cap or AF regs says that cap must provide a military looking dress uniform for those that don't qualify for USAF style wear? I have never seen such regs. Also, it is a little funny to me that some of those that are offended by the uniform leaving, are also the ones that want to take away the AF style uniforms all together. Kind of funny that it's ok to you, to take away my military style but when it comes to yours you cry foul. Flame away....

I have never advocated taking away the AF uniform, but rather arriving at a compromise that we can all wear, that reflects our AF heritage, but recognizes that we are a service of our own, with our own traditions and mission that predates the Air Force.

The arrogance and condesension of the AF purists never ceases to amaze me. If you are so in love with the AF uniform, there is an organization that will allow you to wear it anytime you please. It's called the United States Air Force.

The position that the Air Force is now taking that they can dictate our CORPORATE uniforms, says to me that our honor, duty and patriotism are not valid because we don't meet their weight standards. The statement that we can not have ANY military looking uniform, and must not look like any other service basically is saying to me, "OK fatboy, wear your polo shirt, shut up and do as your told, we don't care that you spend countless dollars of your own going to exercises and missions, paying dues, proficiency flying on your own dime, spending time away fro your family and sometimes your PAYING job. respect is reserved for those who make us LOOK good, not those who DO good". 

I know what you're going to say, "lose weight you worthless slug" , believe me, I'm trying, but at 51 it ain't as easy as it was at 21.

And with this renewed interest in our appearance,  is the AF and NHQ going to start enforcing the standards across the board, or are the connected and high ranking going to get to do as they please?

One last thought, the folks who are listed as stakeholders, put the membership pretty far down the list, after Vanguard (and that's assuming that "Member Services" is meant to be the voice of the membership, and that's a pretty big leap of faith).

Guess I know where the members of this organization stand.

[Hawk200]

Is the Blazer Combo really considered a uniform? I've always considered it a substitute.

It's considered an alternative. Considering how broad the idea of what the combo can be, it's basically a close enough to everybody else uniform. I've seen some pretty well tailored coats alongside some cheap off the rack stuff worn, so even as a uniform, the differences can be glaring.

I would advocate a standard coat, and standard pants. I would also pose that it should be permitted to be worn without insignia. You end up with more usability. A lot of people could probably use something a little more formal in their closet, I know I could. Shoot, I'd buy something like it so I'd have something else to wear for occasions.

...like how we are allowed to wear "U.S." cutouts which are definitely an Air Force item.

That was Air Force approved, they made more of a big deal out of it than we did.

[NCRblues]

Billford1, from everything I have heard and was told (some of you will jump me by saying "oh buts it's not official") was that the air force leadership approved it, but when average active duty personnel starting encountering the CSU on bases, complaints were sent up the chain and was apparently heard in the top levels. Apparently confusion reigned on military instillations across the nation. Was this person navy because of the silver braid? Was this person a general's aide, or a foreign officer? Were some of the complaints that were sent up through Whiteman AFB alone.
Photogpilot, I am in the air force and just to let you know, we can't wear our uniforms anytime we please, there are regs stating when and why a uniform can be used. I would never tell you to lose weight, but I am of the strong opinion that complaining on captalk, is not going to help anyone in the slightest. It's over and done with, the CSU is going the way (thank god) of the berry boards, and I say good riddance. Wear the white and grays, wear them with pride and make them look good. It's all about how you present yourself. I am not an "air force purist" as you say, just an advocate for the air force style, because their seems to be a lack of those supporters on captalk. I never said you were the one advocating for the removal of the air force style, but there on here and vocal about it (sometimes). And about your comment on the connected and high ranking, continuing to do whatever they want, yes they will. That is a big BIG problem in cap. The good ol boy club runs rampant.

[BillB]

Blues, Whites, Greys....Why not go back to the CAP and USAF uniform of the 60's. It's no longer a USAF uniform. Wear khaki uniforms with AF blue belt and flight cap. Wear metal rank on the right side of the collar and CAP cutout on the left. And is required a shoulderpatch, either a wing patch of national patch.
While it still looks military to an "outsider" it is not a current USAF uniform so there should be no problem with AF authorization. Such a khaki uniform also shows part of the history of CAP. The problem is what service coat would be worn with this uniform.

[flyboy53]

That is a big BIG problem in cap. The good ol boy club runs rampant.

BRAVO! On target.

[flyboy53]

it is not a current USAF uniform so there should be no problem with AF authorization.

Actually, regardless of whether it is no longer authorized, it is still the Air Force uniform -- 1505s, 505s, Shade 84 or 1549 blues, et al. Retirees/veterans are authorized by law to wear those uniforms at certain days or events. Remember also that we are federally chartered and report to the Air Force under federal law so the Air Force would still control the shots. The sad part is that the ol' good old boys club designed a uniform that fit their egos and the result was a big WWF slap down and now the Air Force is going to control the uniform changes because we couldn't do it ourselves.

[Gunner C]

I don't see this as authoritative.  Just briefing slides.

No, but it certainly provides information on the factors as national leadership saw them, their reasoning behind the decision, and the level of CAP-USAF, BOG, and USAF involvement.

You are correct.  Here's the way I see it as set forth in the timeline:

• Aug 2006 USAF/A3 complained that there was a problem.  The BoG replied they were ready to dialog with EX as POC; EX heard nothing so did nothing.
• Nov 2009  Someone gets told that the AF is pissed about our uniforms.

1.  CAP/EX dropped the ball.  He gets paid WAY too much to let anything drop through the cracks.  He needs to be fired.

2.  When the BoG offered to talk with AF/A3, he should have done so.  We have someone in that office (an AD 0-6) - it shouldn't have gotten this far. 

It sounds to me that the AF wasn't that worried about it, but it finally got to the bottom of the "in-box" and there was our stuff.  But three years?  Really?  Come on.  No one stays in a job at the Pentagon that long!  We have some n^tless wonders in both offices.

If folks would just say what they mean, there would be a great deal more harmoney between CAP and USAF.

[Spike]

Remember also that we are federally chartered and report to the Air Force under federal law so the Air Force would still control the shots.

That was how it used to be, CAP no longer reports to USAF unless carrying out an AFAM. 

[PHall]

It sounds to me that the AF wasn't that worried about it, but it finally got to the bottom of the "in-box" and there was our stuff.  But three years?  Really?  Come on.  No one stays in a job at the Pentagon that long!

Sounds like a "end of tour" thing where somebody was getting ready to PCS/Retire and didn't want to leave it for their replacement.

[billford1]

It sounds to me that the AF wasn't that worried about it, but it finally got to the bottom of the "in-box" and there was our stuff.  But three years?  Really?  Come on.  No one stays in a job at the Pentagon that long!

Sounds like a "end of tour" thing where somebody was getting ready to PCS/Retire and didn't want to leave it for their replacement.

If that is the truth it is really lame. And now we're told that some in the AF have complained and expressed their feelings about CAP members in that uniform. I've met many real (RM) USAF Officers. I've never seen even a hint of indecisiveness on their part. They pay a price to get where they are and when something get's to their desk for review there is deliberation and decisions are made and rendered. I have a hard time with the notion of something being stuck in someone's inbox without being ever seen by the right decision makers.  In the Military I'm familiar with somebody would lose some pay for this. I may be wrong but if I were in that office I would be calling for further deliberation that would be affected by more than the input of just a few. Someone there may not feel that this is significant. Some body way up the food chain might have said oops and then reacted by slamming the gavel but such a scenario is hard for me to grasp if involves the USAF. The RM folks are extremely accountable and always work for the correct outcome that won't need fixing later. Tell me if I'm wrong.

[PHall]

It sounds to me that the AF wasn't that worried about it, but it finally got to the bottom of the "in-box" and there was our stuff.  But three years?  Really?  Come on.  No one stays in a job at the Pentagon that long!

Sounds like a "end of tour" thing where somebody was getting ready to PCS/Retire and didn't want to leave it for their replacement.

If that is the truth it is really lame. And now we're told that some in the AF have complained and expressed their feelings about CAP members in that uniform. I've met many real (RM) USAF Officers. I've never seen even a hint of indecisiveness on their part. They pay a price to get where they are and when something get's to their desk for review there is deliberation and decisions are made and rendered. I have a hard time with the notion of something being stuck in someone's inbox without being ever seen by the right decision makers.  In the Military I'm familiar with somebody would lose some pay for this. I may be wrong but if I were in that office I would be calling for further deliberation that would be affected by more than the input of just a few. Someone there may not feel that this is significant. Some body way up the food chain might have said oops and then reacted by slamming the gavel but such a scenario is hard for me to grasp if involves the USAF. The RM folks are extremely accountable and always work for the correct outcome that won't need fixing later. Tell me if I'm wrong.

Of course they're not going to tell you to your face that they don't like your uniform, they'll bring it up to their Commander and/or First Sergeant/Command Chief.

And everybody's In Box is usually sorted by priority, CAP uniforms would probably be a rather low priority item.

[NCRblues]

What Phall said is spot on. With the Air force going through mass changes internally, cap uniforms would be very very low on the list of things to be done. It doesn't surprise me one bit it took this long. You got to think about this, after the Minot incident, the air force almost tore itself to pieces. Everyone was blaming everyone else. The DOE and DOD decided it was time to take us back to a more SAC style system with nukes and combat aircraft, so they decided to stand up global strike command. Half of ACC is moving over to GSC, AETC is being revamped again, early retirements are up almost 15%, and retention rates are down. So out of all this, cap, and our uniform fiasco is pretty low man on the totem pole. Also like Phall said, they won't tell you to your face that they don't like your uniform, but they will make it know to their first shirt, who answers to the command chief, who has the ear of the wing king, who has the ear of the numbered air force commander who has the ear of..... You get the picture.

[Gunner C]

If someone has a bee in their bonnet and they don't say something for three years . . . That's just stupidity.  This is obviously came at a high level. Something else happened - things just don't reappear after three years.  Beep and a rush . . .

[Hawk200]

Of course they're not going to tell you to your face that they don't like your uniform, they'll bring it up to their Commander and/or First Sergeant/Command Chief.

Most people in the Air Force know that telling you doesn't mean anything anyway. You won't do anything about it if they do, after all you spent the money on it, and one person by themself doesn't make a difference. Only when something grows and expands to like minded thinker does something happen.

I still think it was the Air Force epaulets and the use of Army uniform pieces that were part of the "triggering event". I seriously doubt this would have happened if the same epaulets and nametag had been used for the CSU. It wouldn't have looked "pseudo Air Force", and probably would have been accepted that way with less of an issue.

Something else that no one seems to be considering is that it may not have been the Air Force as the primary complaintant on this. Any one paid attention to the fact that the CSU lite version looks very similar to the new Army Class B? The Army may have had issues with it, and sent the Air Force a nasty gram. Their trenchcoat, their sweater, their windbreaker could have just have easily been ammo for that battle. CAP members could have been shopping in the Army Mil Clothing, and had plenty of people saying "Civil Air Patrol? Air Force Auxiliary? How come you're not shopping at the Air Force uniform store?"

[NCRblues]

Very good point hawk. Maybe not even on army instillations, we have an army unit at Whiteman, and there is one at Scott as well, they could just have easily been perturbed by the options on the uniform.

[LtCol057]

The new Army uniforms are not being received in a very good way by the people in the army.  When they first announced the new army uniforms, every issue of the Army Times had letters denouncing them.   I know that I personally don't like them either. Glad I didn't have to wear them when I was AD.  i think about the only thing they disliked more was the beret.

As far as our uniforms, I just wish someone would grow a pair and decide something.  I don't have a problem with blues for cadets and white/gray for seniors since it seems that seniors are who the USAF has problems with.  Just my 2 cents worth. 

[FW]

One more time guys:  If anyone had a major heart ache over the "CSU" (on the military side), it would have gone thru channels and landed at the desk of the BoG Chairman  via the CAP/EX.

BTW; In the reply to the Air Force, the BoG instructed Gen Chandler and Mr. Goodwin (SECAF/MIR) to contact the EX directly if there was a further issue with the uniform. No contact was made; in writing.  Verbal contact was made saying the uniform was acceptable. 
No official comments to the BoG or CAP/EX were ever made to date with a change of attitude or direction.  And even if there was a recent request for change, The first letter to the BoG from the Air Force said it would be done with "cooperation and dialog" with the CAP.  It would not have been "gone or else".

The only other scenario would have been a private talk between the CAP/CC and the SECAF/MIR  or CSAF during a face to face meeting.  That may have happened however, if it did, the CAP/CC would have put it in her power point to the membership.



(I must be getting Alzheimer's.  I'm starting to repeat myself)

[FARRIER]

Just an observation rereading the powerpoint, Factors Slide 1, point 2, and Factors Slide 3  point 7, somewhat imply USAF displeasure. Taking that with what information FW has provided us, to me it it would show NEC didn't have the fortitude to just say look, we were reducing the number of uniforms and this is the one we chose. They didn't need to provide all the extra points.

[NCRblues]

I would like to know why it is so hard for some people to think maybe just maybe the air force wanted us to save face, or even they wanted to save face. Things don't always go through "official channels". Maybe instead of the letter going to the cap leadership saying we think you should change it, maybe there was communication from person to person, saying hey change is coming down the line, maybe you all should step up and take the incentive t fix it now before we officially ask you to. It happens all the time in the military and politics. Why is it so hard for some to believe that it can happen in cap? I really enjoy the  "if their isn't an official letter with letter heard and signatures it didn't happen" people. Also maybe the air force wanted to save their own face, because if you remember, there has been a new SECAF, and new chief of staff for the air force, since the CSU was given the go ahead (maybe) from the air force, did you ever stop and think maybe they didn't want to come outright and say we don't like it, maybe they wanted to help cap out instead of slapping us in the face again.