"Corporate Uniform" Gone!!

[Farrah]

Does anyone know if viewing the NEC meeting, again, is available?

[RiverAux]

Nope, they aren't archived online.  I wonder if however recordings of the meeting are saved for historical purposes?

[DG]

All I can say is that I am thankful for CapTalk because I am glad I learned of this deauthorization action, before I bought the uniform.

The uniform looked good, and I was very close to putting out the shekels.

Thank you CapTalk.

[flyboy53]

Agree. Such passionate communications in this thread. Perhaps the lesson here for all of us is to be more actively involved, with ears to the ground, on what is going on in our higher chains of command. I've aways thought that the opinions in the field don't seem to count much to the commanders at the NEC/NB level because they are so wrapped up in the politics of the moment. Also, I think there is a broader issue of the "culture" of our organization and where we as a group intend to head in the future. Sometimes, I think we really get hung up on uniforms, badges and ribbons and it saddens me because it saps the energy out of the membership. It has always bugged me that we do something right that has broad acceptance like the first AF Aux command patch and then it's changed. Thank all of you for your insight even when it got a little heated.

[Hawk200]

This was in my email this morning. It's got Courter's name on it. Seems to be all we really need. According to the file, the Air Force has the right to approve any corporate uniforms as well.

[Gunner C]

I don't see this as authoritative.  Just briefing slides. 

[Pylon]

I don't see this as authoritative.  Just briefing slides.

No, but it certainly provides information on the factors as national leadership saw them, their reasoning behind the decision, and the level of CAP-USAF, BOG, and USAF involvement.

[High Speed Low Drag]

The briefing slides really bothered me.  There is something about the slides that strike a skeptical chord in me – I would need to know who these slides were made to be presented to.  I'm not sure I buy it w/o knowing more about them.  It seems to contain an awful lot of flavor from the thread discussions here on CT. 

I'm also skeptical of the sentence "USAF owns the approval of militarily-styled uniforms...."  If that was the case, police, fire, etc could not use military-style uniforms w/o DOD approval (or a small-town police chief ludicrously using 4-stars as his rank).

I took the flavor of the slides to be a pre-emptive strike against us "fat & fuzzies".  To me, it is saying that if you do not meet H/W, you don't deserve to wear a military-style uniform.  (Rather arrogantly).  It seems to inherently prevent fat & fuzzies from wearing a smart uniform wear they can display their achievements with pride instead of a dumpy coat.

I do not think that those of us working for a change should take this as a set-back.  We should still continue our work – to develop a CSU that all members could wear with pride, and to recognize the fact that we ALL contribute to the missions, not just those that can wear the AF-style.  It is as if the AF is saying, "OK guys, for those that can wear our uniform, good job.  Those of you that can't, who cares what you have accomplished, you need to hide under a "blue" rock so that no one knows you are associated with the AF." Instead of what they should be saying, "OK guys, we are proud of all of you that support our missions, and for those of you can't wear our uniform, here is a different uniform that is totally non-AF that you can still wear proudly."

I hate to say it, but those slides make me really unappreciated by the AF and HQ CAP.  "Fat & Fuzzies don't deserve a good-looking uniform to reflect the pride they have in our organizations" 

[FW]

Even though I said I wouldn't argue these points, I thought I would chime in one more (fruitless) time....

The powerpoint presentation by Gen Courter is interesting and more factual than the original one presented previously by some (NER/CC). 

However, to my knowledge, the Air Force was not silent on the CSU as changed by the NB in 2006.  Both Gen. Chilton and then Sec. Dominguez did approve the changes and found the uniform acceptable.  Now, whether or not there was a change of mind; I have no idea.  But, any official Air Force response would have gone to the Chairman of the BoG, Gen Hopper.  To date, there has been no official request for any action on the "CSU"; at least until the summer NB meeting (Sept 2009). 
So, as I've said previously, who knows what will happen next.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Corporate Uniform may not be military in style? Then why aren't all members required to have a corporate uniform? Why is it encouraged for members to make contact with local gov/agencies/etc wearing dress blues?

That's all BS. Have their blazer, but make a military style uniform as well.

[Eclipse]

Then why aren't all members required to have a corporate uniform?

All senior members not wearing the USAF-style blues are required to have the aviator whites.

Before anyone hits the "cite please" button - read Page 8 of 39-1.

Now, if the assertion is that the aviator whites are not to be "military style", so be it - remove the grade, ribbons, and badges, and go back to the black name tag and be done with it.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Then why aren't all members required to have a corporate uniform?

All senior members not wearing the USAF-style blues are required to have the aviator whites.

Before anyone hits the "cite please" button - read Page 8 of 39-1.

Now, if the assertion is that the aviator whites are not to be "military style", so be it - remove the grade, ribbons, and badges, and go back to the black name tag and be done with it.

The slides stated that corporates should be non-military because of the need of a 'suit' in a suit meeting. Well in that case, I expect that to be a required uniform and suggested one over Dress blues.

[FARRIER]

Reading through the post, I'm not sure this point has been made yet.  The aviator whites without the blazer does look professional. You put on the blue blazer you now look like the security gaurd at the Chase bank. Airline pilots and even Customer Service Representatives have a more professional looking uniform when it comes to wearing a coat/blazer. Being a flying organization, with all the corporate branding going on, they would have put that same effort into our apperance.

[Airrace]

Glad to hear the uniform will be gone!

[PhotogPilot]

The briefing slides really bothered me.  There is something about the slides that strike a skeptical chord in me – I would need to know who these slides were made to be presented to.  I'm not sure I buy it w/o knowing more about them.  It seems to contain an awful lot of flavor from the thread discussions here on CT. 

I'm also skeptical of the sentence "USAF owns the approval of militarily-styled uniforms...."  If that was the case, police, fire, etc could not use military-style uniforms w/o DOD approval (or a small-town police chief ludicrously using 4-stars as his rank).

I took the flavor of the slides to be a pre-emptive strike against us "fat & fuzzies".  To me, it is saying that if you do not meet H/W, you don't deserve to wear a military-style uniform.  (Rather arrogantly).  It seems to inherently prevent fat & fuzzies from wearing a smart uniform wear they can display their achievements with pride instead of a dumpy coat.

I do not think that those of us working for a change should take this as a set-back.  We should still continue our work – to develop a CSU that all members could wear with pride, and to recognize the fact that we ALL contribute to the missions, not just those that can wear the AF-style.  It is as if the AF is saying, "OK guys, for those that can wear our uniform, good job.  Those of you that can't, who cares what you have accomplished, you need to hide under a "blue" rock so that no one knows you are associated with the AF." Instead of what they should be saying, "OK guys, we are proud of all of you that support our missions, and for those of you can't wear our uniform, here is a different uniform that is totally non-AF that you can still wear proudly."

I hate to say it, but those slides make me really unappreciated by the AF and HQ CAP.  "Fat & Fuzzies don't deserve a good-looking uniform to reflect the pride they have in our organizations" 

IF the powerpoint is really the output of NHQ and Maj Gen Courter, I would consider myself HIGHLY insulted and offended. It says to me, and a lot of others, that sense of duty, honor, service to community and country, and pride are really meaningless as military attributes, as long as one has the metabolism of a 19 year old airman or GQ cover boy.

If the USAF really has say over corporate uniforms, can we expect to see some enforcement of standards. At a recent SAREX, I saw CAP officers, who looked like they got their AF flightsuits out of mothballs, complete with cloth subdued grade and cloth name patches with AF wings,. I flew with a 5'8" Lt Col in a green zoom bag, who W&B the AC at 240 lbs.  I saw woodland BDUs with tapes and grade that looked like they were sewn on by a hyperactive 12 year old on a sugar high. 

I may just be a dumb, weak willed overweight 51 year old, but I wear WHATEVER uniform I'm authorized CORRECTLY. Usually BBDU or CSU. I don't own a polo shirt, but I might as well buy one now, because hey, what's the point.

[NCRblues]

I am not sure what you all are being offended by. Is it this line, "Corporate style uniforms do not exist  to allow those who may not wear the USAF--‐style to have a military--‐looking alternative", and if so, why? Can anyone cite where cap or AF regs says that cap must provide a military looking dress uniform for those that don't qualify for USAF style wear? I have never seen such regs. Also, it is a little funny to me that some of those that are offended by the uniform leaving, are also the ones that want to take away the AF style uniforms all together. Kind of funny that it's ok to you, to take away my military style but when it comes to yours you cry foul. Flame away....

[arajca]

FLAME ON!

I'm one of those offended by both the withdrawl of the CSU and the comment that "corporate uniforms do not exist...". I am not one of those suggesting, recommending, of encouraging dumping the AF uniform. And if you look at those wanting to drop the AF uniform, it was to provide uniformity among seniors and DID include a military style dress uniform.

To tell me that I am not good enough to wear the awards I earned from CAP on a dress uniform is insulting. What's the point in have those awards if we cannot wear them!

You're right. Neither CAP nor AF regs say CAP must provide a miliatry style uniform for the second class members who keep the organization running. They also do not say CAP has to provide a military style uniform for the AF posterchildren. CAP is 'permitted' to wear the AF uniform, but not required by regs to provide it.

I guess it's golf shirt time for EVERY CAP function for me from now on. Before someone starts in with minimum required service uniform, NOTHING requires a member to wear it.

[FARRIER]

I am not sure what you all are being offended by. Is it this line, "Corporate style uniforms do not exist  to allow those who may not wear the USAF--‐style to have a military--‐looking alternative", and if so, why? Can anyone cite where cap or AF regs says that cap must provide a military looking dress uniform for those that don't qualify for USAF style wear? I have never seen such regs. Also, it is a little funny to me that some of those that are offended by the uniform leaving, are also the ones that want to take away the AF style uniforms all together. Kind of funny that it's ok to you, to take away my military style but when it comes to yours you cry foul. Flame away....

I don't want to see the Air Force uniform go away. Call me a tradtionalist, but we always have been a uniformed organization. Being a person who is now in the not "the meeting grooming standards" condition due to a medical reasons, like some of the others on this board, I would like to see us keep a non-Air Force uniform that presents a professional appearence.

[FARRIER]

To tell me that I am not good enough to wear the awards I earned from CAP on a dress uniform is insulting. What's the point in have those awards if we cannot wear them!

My sqaudron commander during my time as a cadet and early on as a senior, who was a retired Air Force Master Sergeant, told me many times the way we pay back the people for the effort they put into CAP is the awards, since they couldn't be paid a salary. I joined the organization as a cadet, so I've been a proponent of the organizations goals from day one. But I'm with Andrew, if I can't display the awards, given to me by others because they appreciated the sweat and elbow grease (sometimes literally) I put into the organization, that stinks.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Hmmm...I wonder what will happen if we somehow unearth an ES organisation somewhere that wears white shirt and grey trousers?

Too much confusion...jack the uniform.