"Corporate Uniform" Gone!!

[Hawk200]

Well, if you prefer to think that our leaders are lying to us, I suppose that your right, but there is no evidence of that either.

I wouldn't even worry about it, River. Some people refuse to accept anything other than their own opinion,  try to stir things up, or blatantly misrepresent facts. I'd let it go, it's a brick wall argument.

[Eclipse]

Well, if you prefer to think that our leaders are lying to us, I suppose that your right, but there is no evidence of that either.

There's no "lying" here, there hasn't been any official communication from anyone.  The stuff we're seeing are hearsay messages downstream that don't even include a hard sundown date.

I'll believe the decision is "final" when I see something from NHQ that says when we should knock it off.

As to the "why's?" we may never know, but no one has presented anything at all that the USAF cared except for side conversations or their own assumptions.

[RiverAux]

Email from a member of the NEC explaining that it was done in part because of AF objections seems like pretty good evidence to me and is a better explanation than we usually get for such actions. 

You know very well that ICLs and the like take an unreasonably long time to process, but the vote has been made and unless reversed by the BoG or NB it is a done deal, just as much as any other decision.  Sure, some wings have not sent out official word, but others have.  Just a standard example of poor information transfer within the organization, nothing more. 

I don't understand why you're being so obstinate on this matter.  Its not like its something that has any immediate impact anyway. 

[SJFedor]

Concur w/ RiverAux. I've gotten emails from my Wing/CC regarding it. Somewhere in there was something about the AF not being happy w/ the uniform.

And I don't believe my commander is one to be spreading hearsay.

[FW]

Oh, hum.... some people just wish to go on and on.
The bottom line is the NEC made a decision. It really no longer matters why.  I think there are other things to deal with now.....


BTW, Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

[lordmonar]

Well, if you prefer to think that our leaders are lying to us, I suppose that your right, but there is no evidence of that either.

There's no "lying" here, there hasn't been any official communication from anyone.  The stuff we're seeing are hearsay messages downstream that don't even include a hard sundown date.

I'll believe the decision is "final" when I see something from NHQ that says when we should knock it off.

As to the "why's?" we may never know, but no one has presented anything at all that the USAF cared except for side conversations or their own assumptions.

My chain of command is about as offical as you can get.  The Regional CC, breifed the wing CC who breifed my commander....I was there well.

We do have a hard sundown date it is 1 Jan 2011.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Jeez, can't you assume that he meant getting AF approval (or at least not disapproval) for his suggestion?  Did he say he was going to start wearing this on his own initiative?  Apparently the AF didn't like the CSU in its current format, but there is no reason to believe that they might not go along with one that has certain alterations to the existing one.

I've thought of that too - possible modification.

Either lose the hard rank on the service coat or put (yet another!) CAP cutout on the epaulette above the hard rank.  However, I think the replacement by the grey epaulette would be more likely.  Lose the silver/grey cuff striping and visor on service cap.

Either replace the blue AF epaulettes with grey ones (more likely) or get pre-1990's CAP blue epaulettes authorised for that uniform only (less likely).  Replace the two-line nameplate with either the current grey or the older blue style (pre-1990's).

Maybe a distinctive belt buckle with the CAP crest?

Of course, this is all speculation, but I wonder if the AF would be willing to meet us halfway on this - remove the things they find objectionable and in return we still get a good-looking uniform that many like.

One thing I have never thought was good was having grey epaulettes on outergarments (trenchcoat, etc), because if it gets soaked and the epaulette gets soiled beyond cleaning then you're out the money for the epaulette.  I'm wondering if the current hard rank/CAP cutout would still be tenable for the black outergarments.

[Eclipse]

I'm not arguing that the uniform was removed, I'm saying that no one knows why, beyond hearsay, and in most cases the email messages are all quoting back to random comments.

We may never know why, and we may never know what the reason for expediting the removal really was, but assuming comments made off-handedly by Region CC's or others are "canonical" won't help.

[RiverAux]

Considering that said Region CC was a member of the group that made the decision, I'd say thats pretty good.  I also wouldn't consider an email sent announcing the decision and trying to explain it as "off hand".  Its not like someone heard it in the hallway.  He sent it out to try to head off a mad uproar. 

[flyerthom]

This was published on the OH wing webpage: http://ohwg.cap.gov/

Elimination of the double breasted uniform combination


Members of Ohio Wing,

At the most recent National Executive Committee (NEC) meeting the NEC voted to eliminate the double breasted corporate uniform effective 1 January 2011. The NEC choose to act now rather than have the Air Force impose a change on us. And believe me when I tell you, we were not very far from having that happen. So, after 1 January 2011 the only uniform combination's authorized for CAP senior members will be the Air Force style (blue epaulet shirt with blue slacks/skirt) or the white aviator shirt with grey slacks/skirt.

Please wait for the interim guidance to be published before you make additional uniform purchases. When that guidance is published I will forward it through your chain of command.

Thank you!

Dave Winters, Colonel, CAP
Commander, Ohio Wing

I think maybe we should wait for the ICL

[billford1]

I've never worn the CSU.  Since this thread is still alive I'd like to again remind those who handed this decision down that there are some who do so much more than others like myself.  They devote an awful lot of their time and heart to things that really matter in CAP. They spend long hours taking responsibility for CAP assets, Cadet Programs and many other things that matter a lot and are very costly to those members who really care enough to do those jobs. I know people who give too much of their life to CAP and nobody should laugh at that if they don't know what these people do. An AF TSgt LO told me he could hardly believe what he's heard about people who spend over $10.000 a year on CAP activities. Many of these folks had to switch to a different uniform in the 90's that makes them look different than the most of the crowd.  To make matters worse many Cadets refuse to salute them because somewhere there's a rule about saluting only seniors who are wearing an AF uniform.  These unselfish folks just keep on going. Three and a half years ago the corporate uniform change was an upgrade for them. It was announced and encouraged by NHQ.  I've seen these people spend a lot of money for this uniform that the National Leadership endorsed. The Leaders who have made this decision should think about the people who are impacted by it. It really is a slap in the face.  For the rule makers to make this choice and then not offer a strong reason why is truly unacceptable. 

[NCRblues]

^^ I believe that region and wing CC's saying the air force was en route to make us change is a pretty good explanation. Now, you can choose to not believe the wing and region kings, but I'm pretty sure they are better informed than say oh the average captalk poster on this subject. (sometimes *wink wink*) Is it a slap in the face? Sure, but what honestly would you rather have, our own governing body change it, or the air force storm in one day and say " you can no longer have this this and this, have a nice day"?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Although, to be very strict, hair-splitting and pedantic, the only things the AF could have taken away from the CSU are things that exclusively belong to them.

Headgear (finding another match would be difficult, but not impossible)
Trousers (maybe the formal grey ones others have suggested?)
Tie (another shade of blue wouldn't be difficult)
Belt (black, grey or non-AF issue blue)
Epaulettes (existing grey, or new blue with CAP embroidery)

The Air Force does not own hard rank, nor do they own the CSU service coat (though I'm not sure about the cloth itself).

Is it feasible to modify the CSU to take away anything that is AF-proprietary?  I don't know.

[lordmonar]

There are otheways they could make their displesure known......like maybe reducing CAP from USAF bases?  Withholding funds?  Reducing missions?  Emplacing different members to the BoG who would force the changes they want?

I don't know what the USAF really said at the NEC....but I am sure that the NEC did what was best for CAP.

[FW]

I'm not going to argue the point on the Air Force's position on the CSU anymore because it really doesn't matter.  I'm not going to argue on the NEC's decision anymore because it also, doesn't matter.  Barring any information to the contrary,  it's a dead issue at this point.  IF the NB wishes to revisit the issue, it will.  Bigger guns than those writing on CT are going to figure it out.  All I can say is "good shooting"

[RADIOMAN015]

Although, to be very strict, hair-splitting and pedantic, the only things the AF could have taken away from the CSU are things that exclusively belong to them.

The Air Force does not own hard rank, nor do they own the CSU service coat (though I'm not sure about the cloth itself).

Personally I see the uniform as violating AFI 10-2701 para 1.3.4 in that it looked too much like an AF uniform in low light conditions, etc. 

Not sure who in the Air Force signed off on this corporate uniform, but hopefully ANY CAP distinct uniform changes in the future will get an approriate AF level coordination/approval signoff

This was an expensive uniform, and I'd be surprised if there were more 150 to 200 people that bought this uniform.

It is unbelievable the amount of posts & how many read the postings on this subject.  Way too much time is spent by CAP on uniforms .   

I think we should suspend ANY changes to CAP uniforms for a 3 to 5 year period, unless it can be shown that the supply of a particular uniform is no longer available! 
RM

[Eclipse]

This was an expensive uniform, and I'd be surprised if there were more 150 to 200 people that bought this uniform.

Be surprised.

I'd say at least 1/2 that number in my wing alone are wearing it, and at least 1/3rd of the corporate officers nationwide, judging by photos.

The CSU was becoming an increasingly popular uniform at wing staff meetings and regional activities.

I know of a lot of members who did or were making the transition from the USAF to the CSU in recognition that they would not have the metabolism of a 12 year old forever.

[lordmonar]

It is unbelievable the amount of posts & how many read the postings on this subject.  Way too much time is spent by CAP on uniforms .   

And yet you read and posted as well.......what does that say?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

This was an expensive uniform, and I'd be surprised if there were more 150 to 200 people that bought this uniform.

Be surprised.

I'd say at least 1/2 that number in my wing alone are wearing it, and at least 1/3rd of the corporate officers nationwide, judging by photos.

The CSU was becoming an increasingly popular uniform at wing staff meetings and regional activities.

I know of a lot of members who did or were making the transition from the USAF to the CSU in recognition that they would not have the metabolism of a 12 year old forever.

Believe it.

I personally saw the wing CC wearing one, as well as other wing-level brass.

The only silver lining for me personally is that I didn't shell out for the service coat.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Personally I see the uniform as violating AFI 10-2701 para 1.3.4 in that it looked too much like an AF uniform in low light conditions, etc. 

Not sure who in the Air Force signed off on this corporate uniform, but hopefully ANY CAP distinct uniform changes in the future will get an approriate AF level coordination/approval signoff

I just re-read AFI 10-2701 para 1.3.4.

The wording about "low light conditions" and "confusion will not occur" is kind of vague, as I see it.

Even from a distance the AF-type uniform (short or long sleeves) looks like an AF officer is approaching and the distinctive items aren't apparent until you're within fairly close visual range.

"Confusion" is kind of subjective too, if you don't know what you're looking for.  Coast Guard personnel can look like AF personnel in certain circumstances, and like Navy personnel in others.

1.3.4 says that "the Air Force must approve any changes to the CAP Air Force-style uniform" - which the CSU was not, though it used probably too many AF items.  That is why I believe we should take not using any AF items into any sort of uniform modification/redesign, if such a thing ever happens beyond the pages of this forum.