"Corporate Uniform" Gone!!

[Short Field]

But here is another ideal idea. Whats wrong with enforcing weight standards.

Nothing - and we also need to start enforcing USAF education standards and entrance testing standards.  Want to be a CAP 2Lt - get a bachelors' degree.  Master's recommended for field grade officers.  That would greatly improve our leadership!       Pilots would have to meet USAF vision standards.

[flyguy06]

Look I am not going to sttop to thelevel of ignorance for having an opinion.

I amnot saying get rid of al the overweight members. I am saying that we should instill a healthy physical fitness program. DO we not do the same for cadets? Do we not encourage cadets to eat right and maintain a healthy lifestyle? Why not do the same for seniors?

What we are doing now is making conscessions and trying to please everyone. But hey if thats the way CAP wants to do it so be it. Its just a suggestion. I take it all back how about that? Make a billion uniform styles I dont really care.

[Short Field]

I read on here about how ma blue doesnt respect us. Well, in my opinion I think this is one reason why.

You need to spend less time on this board and get out and interface with ma blue if you want to know what they think about us.  Just finished a weekend supporting a major air show where the Cadets were fully integrated in USAF activities.  Cudos for the Cadets were received from several general officers, various unit commanders, politicians, a ton of retired senior officers, and the Secret Service.   I saw one SNCO get a weird look on his face after asking if we were going with his folks to the next activity - we were doing such a great job he forgot we were using Cadets.

[Short Field]

I amnot saying get rid of al the overweight members. I am saying that we should instill a healthy physical fitness program. DO we not do the same for cadets? Do we not encourage cadets to eat right and maintain a healthy lifestyle? Why not do the same for seniors?

And all seniors are forced to "retired" after a max of 10 years....just like cadets.

[NCRblues]

Plus Female SM couldn't be pregnant, Sm couldn't be married. We have more stringent rules for the cadets because we are trying to instill into them a good life style and work ethic. By the time you're a SM if you don't have a good work ethic or healthy lifestyle I am not sure cap regs would change it.

[NCRblues]

Also, the air force is transitioning to an all contracted oversight of the PT testing and program because when the squadrons were in charge of PT testing, the testing was not always honest. People in critical positions were not being tested fairly because of a fear that failing them and having to (eventually) kick them out would put an undue burden on the squadrons. Don't you think this would happen in cap? You don't think that some (some not all) CC's would just let bob or Tim that are the pilots or GT leader's slide just a little? I think it would happen.

[PHall]

Also, the air force is transitioning to an all contracted oversight of the PT testing and program because when the squadrons were in charge of PT testing, the testing was not always honest. People in critical positions were not being tested fairly because of a fear that failing them and having to (eventually) kick them out would put an undue burden on the squadrons. Don't you think this would happen in cap? You don't think that some (some not all) CC's would just let bob or Tim that are the pilots or GT leader's slide just a little? I think it would happen.

Not contractors, civilian employees.

[flyguy06]

I read on here about how ma blue doesnt respect us. Well, in my opinion I think this is one reason why.

You need to spend less time on this board and get out and interface with ma blue if you want to know what they think about us.  Just finished a weekend supporting a major air show where the Cadets were fully integrated in USAF activities.  Cudos for the Cadets were received from several general officers, various unit commanders, politicians, a ton of retired senior officers, and the Secret Service.   I saw one SNCO get a weird look on his face after asking if we were going with his folks to the next activity - we were doing such a great job he forgot we were using Cadets.

I am just repeating WHAT I read onhere. Why pick on me? I get it.

[SarDragon]

We're not "picking on you".

You asked a Q. We responded. You proceeded to push your viewpoint. We pushed back.

I amnot saying get rid of al the overweight members. I am saying that we should instill a healthy physical fitness program.

We already do that. A significant chunk of ECI13 covers just exactly that. Segue to something about horses and water and drinking.

Does this "training" happen early enough in a SM's career? Probably not. But it's there.

BTW, you still haven't answered this Q:

What are you going to do when "middle age spread" hits you, and you migrate into the group you are trying to reject from membership?

[ZigZag911]

USAF weight standards are all about looks......not health, not mission accomplishment, but looks.  And the USAF paid a lot of lip service to the weight managment program while still letting by those who were overweight but critical to their mission.

If the USAF standards are cosmetic, it would be very difficult to maintain that CAP standards derived from them were "mission related"...any action of this sort could be opening CAP to a discrimination lawsuit.

[ColonelJack]

I still think the NEC's decision on the CSU was shortsighted and wrong.  It was clear that the AF approved of the CSU after HWSRN took off the "U.S." insignia and the grade from the flight cap.  The then-Secretary of the Air Force (I believe) signed off on it, as did the CSAF.

So where does the sudden disapproval of the CSU come from?

And in the face of Vanguard having a stock of CSU jackets that it won't be able to sell to members (who's going to pay $175 for a service coat that they can't wear more than a year or so?), who's going to pay for that?

I still see the CSU being revisited by the NB at their next meeting.  If the Wing Kings buck the NEC and reinstate the CSU, it will make for an ... interesting ... turn of events.

Don't discard your CSU just yet.

Jack

[lordmonar]

USAF weight standards are all about looks......not health, not mission accomplishment, but looks.  And the USAF paid a lot of lip service to the weight managment program while still letting by those who were overweight but critical to their mission.

If the USAF standards are cosmetic, it would be very difficult to maintain that CAP standards derived from them were "mission related"...any action of this sort could be opening CAP to a discrimination lawsuit.

Over weight is not a protected class.

[NCRblues]

So where does the sudden disapproval of the CSU come from?

Col, maybe you should read my post about my conversation with a command chief. The "sudden" disapproval came from once the general population of the Air force started to encounter the CSU jacket on instillations. Why is it so hard for people to understand that things change? If the leadership of the air force received enough complaints (as I was lead to believe by command chief Hornbeck) from air force members, it’s not a very far jump to think maybe they revisited their decision.

[davidsinn]

So where does the sudden disapproval of the CSU come from?

Col, maybe you should read my post about my conversation with a command chief. The "sudden" disapproval came from once the general population of the Air force started to encounter the CSU jacket on instillations. Why is it so hard for people to understand that things change? If the leadership of the air force received enough complaints (as I was lead to believe by command chief Hornbeck) from air force members, it's not a very far jump to think maybe they revisited their decision.

Sounds like an education issue to me. Maybe if the AF taught their people about us this wouldn't be a problem.

[tinker]

You guys continue to amaze me.  I just got spent 4 days working my ass off looking for a downed airplane, two days flying and two running Air Branch.

You know what?  Not a single person at mission base was strutting around in a double-breasted jacket.  And a large fraction of our most valuable people were not the sort who would make their squadrons "look good."

The mission is not about "looking good" or wearing fancy soldier suits.  IMHO people for whom those are paramount would be better off finding a good drum and bugle corps to join.  There you also get to wear hats with tall feathers on them.

[Strick]

You guys continue to amaze me.  I just got spent 4 days working my ass off looking for a downed airplane, two days flying and two running Air Branch.

You know what?  Not a single person at mission base was strutting around in a double-breasted jacket.  And a large fraction of our most valuable people were not the sort who would make their squadrons "look good."

The mission is not about "looking good" or wearing fancy soldier suits.  IMHO people for whom those are paramount would be better off finding a good drum and bugle corps to join.  There you also get to wear hats with tall feathers on them.

First off,Thank you for working the mission.......Second, I hope no one would be wearing the corporate service jacket at a mission base unless they were in the PA ROLE.  Third, is it necessary to use profane language in your post?

[NCRblues]

Well tinker, thanks you that rant. I would hope someone wouldn't be looking for a down aircraft in full dress blues. There is a time to look good, and that's what we are discussing. The CSU was a good looking uniform, but it had some problems from the get go. Did I like the CSU, no, did I like the way it was sent away, no.

Davidsinn, how would you propose educating every Air force personnel about every aspect of cap? We would have to brief everyone in the air force on every uniform combination we have. We can't even get it right for our members let alone the world's largest air force! Then what do you do about the Air force personnel that don't like us wearing anything that remotely looks like an active duty uniform?

[Eclipse]

You guys continue to amaze me.  I just got spent 4 days working my ass off looking for a downed airplane, two days flying and two running Air Branch.

You know what?  Not a single person at mission base was strutting around in a double-breasted jacket.  And a large fraction of our most valuable people were not the sort who would make their squadrons "look good."

The mission is not about "looking good" or wearing fancy soldier suits.  IMHO people for whom those are paramount would be better off finding a good drum and bugle corps to join.  There you also get to wear hats with tall feathers on them.

Last time I checked, ES operations were only 1/3rd of our total mission, and we have several appropriate, inexpensive, options for our members to execute that mission.

The other two are generally executed in more formal classroom and/or military environments, and in a lot of the CAP world, AE & CP are a larger part of the program than ES.

Tunnel-visioning your personal square of the universe just makes you seem uninformed. Likewise marginalizing the service of others in an effort to make your own service more "important".  The above is very typical of the single-focus operator mentality.  "If its not in my world, its not important."

[Pace]

I'm not going to get in the middle of this one, but I wanted to pass along a document sent down the chain (stated to be from CAP/CC in the email) to provide clarification over the decision.

I apologize if this has already been posted elsewhere.

[Eclipse]

^ For starters, point #2 is gross oversimplification to make a point which is ultimately incorrect.  The uniform was both reviewed and approved by the USAF.

"Approved" does not necessarily equal "preferred".