"Corporate Uniform" Gone!!

[flyguy06]

BBDUs are fine for field wear. What about a more formal uniform to match the AF Service Dress combination? That's what all the heartburn is about.

Oh, I would say desin a coat similar to the TPU coat. I actually liked that uniform except for the bright sliver braid.

But here is another ideal idea. Whats wrong with enforcing weight standards. Rightnow we make "accomadations" for people that are over weight. We dont want to discriminate or leave these folks out. But inthe name of fitness and health why not "motivate" them to want to get insgaoe. I dont meanthey have to be a marathin man, but just enough to be healthy. I mean part of CAP is promoting a healthy lifestyle isnt it? So a good start could be mandating that members be in a certain height and weight range. It makes the unit look better overall and its good for the individual member.

[flyguy06]

One thing I notice on here. Everybody has their little "my sources" going on. There is not much unity cause everyone wants to trump everyone else with "thier special sources that nobody else has"

Again. like I always say if we are going to be an organization, we have to work together as a team and stop trying to one up each other

[NCRblues]

I am not trying to one up anyone. My sources are the men and women in the U.S. Air Force that I serve with every day. I'll let you know exactly my source on the CSU was, the command chief of Whiteman AFB. He told me directly when he found out I was a cap member that he (along with other influence people in the command structure) received varied complaints on the CSU jacket about the hard rank, sleeve braid and several other items on the CSU. He asked me my personnel opinion on it, which I politely told him that I don't think it was my place for such a thing. This was during a post check that was supposed to be for the welfare of the active duty men and women, yet turned to cap once he asked what I did in my free time. This is a HUGE problem in cap, we blow off simple nudges (that are meant to save us face) until the air force TELLS us this is how its ganna be. By listening to those "sources" people have, maybe oh god just maybe, we would have a better overall relationship with ma blue. MHO. rant over flame away

[PA Guy]

But here is another ideal idea. Whats wrong with enforcing weight standards. Rightnow we make "accomadations" for people that are over weight. We dont want to discriminate or leave these folks out. But inthe name of fitness and health why not "motivate" them to want to get insgaoe. I dont meanthey have to be a marathin man, but just enough to be healthy. I mean part of CAP is promoting a healthy lifestyle isnt it? So a good start could be mandating that members be in a certain height and weight range. It makes the unit look better overall and its good for the individual member.

Seems to me that is a slippery slope for a volunteer organization.

So after we mandate ht/wt requirements are we going to mandate a degree to be an officer, periodic physicals especially for the over 40s or have some sort of PHA?  What do you think the mandated retirement age should be?  Mandate progression in the PD program or be non retained?   

[billford1]

To try to enforce weight standards on members is worse that unfair. I say that because such a mandate would affect more than just the individuals themselves. Most of the strong players in our wing are older, overweight people who couldn't manage to diet and exercise their way into meeting someone else's ideals. The organization would lose them and the huge contribution they make to CAP for almost nothing in return. Weren't there overweight people in CAP before all the uniform diversity started in the 1990s?

[SarDragon]

But here is another ideal idea. Whats wrong with enforcing weight standards.

That policy will drive out at least a third of our functioning members, perhaps more. Outside of GT members (addressed elsewhere on here or CS), nothing we do requires the level of physical condition or appearance require by the military.

What are you going to do when "middle age spread" hits you, and you migrate into the group you are trying to reject from membership?

[FW]

One thing I notice on here. Everybody has their little "my sources" going on. There is not much unity cause everyone wants to trump everyone else with "thier special sources that nobody else has"

Again. like I always say if we are going to be an organization, we have to work together as a team and stop trying to one up each other

I think a point is being missed.  The object of the discussion, IMO, is unity.  Unity based on a set process, proper ethics and a true belief and practice of our core values as CAP members. 

I'm getting major heart burn over the way things are being "explained" to the membership with out proper "back up".  We, as members, agree to abide by the decisons of our leaders.  However, it becomes increasingly difficult to perform when we are given the wrong information.  How can we follow when we are misinformed or given less than full instructions before making decisions or taking action?

It seems our double standard is alive and well.  It seems we have gone back to the days of secret votes, threats and, character assasination.  If this is true, we need a major overhaul and, it needs to start with the top and go all the way down to the newest SM and cadet. Our core values need to be more than just words.  We need to honor them as well as each member who volunteers; at any level.

A very close friend once told me to stick to the "high road" and do what was right.  All I can do is try to live by this advice.  I believe that every one of our leaders tries to do what is in the best interests of CAP and the membership however, there must be a free and open debate with full information given.  Anything less should  be unacceptable to us; as members, as taxpayers, as citizens of this great country.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

As far as the enforcement of height/weight/facial hair standards...I don't see it happening, not without us losing a heck of a lot of members, who, as has been pointed out, contribute quite a bit.  Even State Guards, who have state military authority on their side, are a bit more "loose" on this than the actual Army and Air Guard.

As far as the formal end of the CSU...one thing I have learned over many years of dealing with both CAP and the AF, is that until something is in writing, it hasn't happened.  Once an ICL is issued and/or someone higher up the food chain than me orders me not to wear mine, I will continue to wear it.  However, I am not going to be investing in a service coat any time soon.

Incidentally, is there an official guide on how the black sweater is to be worn?  With the blue epaulettes, or not?  I checked the CAP Knowledgebase and couldn't find anything.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I'll let you know exactly my source on the CSU was, the command chief of Whiteman AFB. He told me directly when he found out I was a cap member that he (along with other influence people in the command structure) received varied complaints on the CSU jacket about the hard rank, sleeve braid and several other items on the CSU.

No flames here.

Usually SNCO's, especially a Command Chief, first shirt, etc. are a pretty good barometer of what's going on in their corner of the world.

I agree with him about the sleeve braid.  I don't think it was necessary and to me it looked garish, and was an extra expense to purchase and have affixed.  But I also don't think we need a commissioning stripe on the AF uniform (we're not commissioned) and I'd be satisfied for all members to wear the airman's flight cap with blue braid.  I remember an AFRES NCO in a former squadron who was also a CAP officer, and he said he sometimes got some odd looks at MCSS when purchasing "officer" items.

As far as the hard rank...again, a lot of other agencies wear it so I'm a bit puzzled on that one, especially since the uniform had CAP cutouts and nameplates.  I'd also be interested to know their position on encountering a CAP CMSGT wearing the uniform with his/her stripes on the service coat...seems to me that would cause a bit of confusion too.

[lordmonar]

BBDUs are fine for field wear. What about a more formal uniform to match the AF Service Dress combination? That's what all the heartburn is about.

Oh, I would say desin a coat similar to the TPU coat. I actually liked that uniform except for the bright sliver braid.

But here is another ideal idea. Whats wrong with enforcing weight standards. Rightnow we make "accomadations" for people that are over weight. We dont want to discriminate or leave these folks out. But inthe name of fitness and health why not "motivate" them to want to get insgaoe. I dont meanthey have to be a marathin man, but just enough to be healthy. I mean part of CAP is promoting a healthy lifestyle isnt it? So a good start could be mandating that members be in a certain height and weight range. It makes the unit look better overall and its good for the individual member.

The reality is that if we did....about 25-45% of CAP would have to go away...about 10% more would walk just because we were kicking out their buddies.

I know in my squadron about 50% of the SM do not/cannot meet weight standards.
The mission will suffer.

[airdale]

But here is another ideal idea. Whats wrong with enforcing weight standards. Rightnow we make "accomadations" for people that are over weight. We dont want to discriminate or leave these folks out. But inthe name of fitness and health why not "motivate" them to want to get insgaoe. I dont meanthey have to be a marathin man, but just enough to be healthy. I mean part of CAP is promoting a healthy lifestyle isnt it? So a good start could be mandating that members be in a certain height and weight range. It makes the unit look better overall and its good for the individual member.

It's hard for me to decide whether it's the arrogance or the astonishing lack of good judgment that is more objectionable in this post.

[flyguy06]

But here is another ideal idea. Whats wrong with enforcing weight standards. Rightnow we make "accomadations" for people that are over weight. We dont want to discriminate or leave these folks out. But inthe name of fitness and health why not "motivate" them to want to get insgaoe. I dont meanthey have to be a marathin man, but just enough to be healthy. I mean part of CAP is promoting a healthy lifestyle isnt it? So a good start could be mandating that members be in a certain height and weight range. It makes the unit look better overall and its good for the individual member.

Seems to me that is a slippery slope for a volunteer organization.

So after we mandate ht/wt requirements are we going to mandate a degree to be an officer, periodic physicals especially for the over 40s or have some sort of PHA?  What do you think the mandated retirement age should be?  Mandate progression in the PD program or be non retained?   

I'm just saying other "volunteer" organizations do it. How do they do it?

[flyguy06]

But here is another ideal idea. Whats wrong with enforcing weight standards. Rightnow we make "accomadations" for people that are over weight. We dont want to discriminate or leave these folks out. But inthe name of fitness and health why not "motivate" them to want to get insgaoe. I dont meanthey have to be a marathin man, but just enough to be healthy. I mean part of CAP is promoting a healthy lifestyle isnt it? So a good start could be mandating that members be in a certain height and weight range. It makes the unit look better overall and its good for the individual member.

It's hard for me to decide whether it's the arrogance or the astonishing lack of good judgment that is more objectionable in this post.

Its not arrogance. I sincerely want our organization to look good and feel good about itself. I read on here about how ma blue doesnt respect us. Well, in my opinion I think this is one reason why.

[davidsinn]

But here is another ideal idea. Whats wrong with enforcing weight standards. Rightnow we make "accomadations" for people that are over weight. We dont want to discriminate or leave these folks out. But inthe name of fitness and health why not "motivate" them to want to get insgaoe. I dont meanthey have to be a marathin man, but just enough to be healthy. I mean part of CAP is promoting a healthy lifestyle isnt it? So a good start could be mandating that members be in a certain height and weight range. It makes the unit look better overall and its good for the individual member.

Seems to me that is a slippery slope for a volunteer organization.

So after we mandate ht/wt requirements are we going to mandate a degree to be an officer, periodic physicals especially for the over 40s or have some sort of PHA?  What do you think the mandated retirement age should be?  Mandate progression in the PD program or be non retained?   

I'm just saying other "volunteer" organizations do it. How do they do it?

Which ones?

Its not arrogance. I sincerely want our organization to look good and feel good about itself. I read on here about how ma blue doesnt respect us. Well, in my opinion I think this is one reason why.

Ma Blue has a stick up her FPOC and forgets that we were formed by those that couldn't fight but still wanted to contribute to the effort.

[airdale]

Its not arrogance.

What if someone told you your grammar, spelling, and typing skills were inadequate for membership in CAP because they would make us look bad?  Would that be arrogance?  Your presuming to tell others what is healthy for them, that their elimination would make their unit look better, and that they aren't respectable is far worse.

[flyguy06]

But here is another ideal idea. Whats wrong with enforcing weight standards. Rightnow we make "accomadations" for people that are over weight. We dont want to discriminate or leave these folks out. But inthe name of fitness and health why not "motivate" them to want to get insgaoe. I dont meanthey have to be a marathin man, but just enough to be healthy. I mean part of CAP is promoting a healthy lifestyle isnt it? So a good start could be mandating that members be in a certain height and weight range. It makes the unit look better overall and its good for the individual member.

Seems to me that is a slippery slope for a volunteer organization.

So after we mandate ht/wt requirements are we going to mandate a degree to be an officer, periodic physicals especially for the over 40s or have some sort of PHA?  What do you think the mandated retirement age should be?  Mandate progression in the PD program or be non retained?   

I'm just saying other "volunteer" organizations do it. How do they do it?

Which ones?

Its not arrogance. I sincerely want our organization to look good and feel good about itself. I read on here about how ma blue doesnt respect us. Well, in my opinion I think this is one reason why.

Ma Blue has a stick up her FPOC and forgets that we were formed by those that couldn't fight but still wanted to contribute to the effort.

Thats true. and i am an example of that. I wanted to be a fighter pilot but I couldnt due to my vision. (I didn join the army as a grunt though) So I completely understand where you are comming from.


But just like we tell people that we are professional volunteers. we should look professional too.

Thats why I propose an alternate uniform for those that dont meet ht and wt or grooming. There is nothing wrong with that. The Coast Aux has strict standards why shouldnt we/

You have to look and act professionally to precieved as professional.  Not only that but its also about health. I want my fellow senior members tolive a long and healthy life. so mandated weight standards would only serve to help them in the long run.

[flyguy06]

Its not arrogance.

What if someone told you your grammar, spelling, and typing skills were inadequate for membership in CAP because they would make us look bad?  Would that be arrogance?  Your presuming to tell others what is healthy for them, that their elimination would make their unit look better, and that they aren't respectable is far worse.

Just lookin out

[davidsinn]

Thats true. and i am an example of that. I wanted to be a fighter pilot but I couldnt due to my vision. (I didn join the army as a grunt though) So I completely understand where you are comming from.


But just like we tell people that we are professional volunteers. we should look professional too.

Thats why I propose an alternate uniform for those that dont meet ht and wt or grooming. There is nothing wrong with that. The Coast Aux has strict standards why shouldnt we/

You have to look and act professionally to precieved as professional.  Not only that but its also about health. I want my fellow senior members tolive a long and healthy life. so mandated weight standards would only serve to help them in the long run.

Of course they'll live long lives, because with your idea the only one's left are the thin healthy people! You institute that and my unit goes away tomorrow because all we'd have left are three officers.

[NCRblues]

It is just not possible to keep cap viable if we were to implement weight standards. How would it look to go up to a SM that has served, oh 20 years in cap, and say, "hey, we understand you're an older gentleman, and losing weight is tuff for you, but uh to bad, bye bye!" What an insult to the members.

[lordmonar]

Thats true. and i am an example of that. I wanted to be a fighter pilot but I couldnt due to my vision. (I didn join the army as a grunt though) So I completely understand where you are comming from.


But just like we tell people that we are professional volunteers. we should look professional too.

Thats why I propose an alternate uniform for those that dont meet ht and wt or grooming. There is nothing wrong with that. The Coast Aux has strict standards why shouldnt we/

You have to look and act professionally to precieved as professional.  Not only that but its also about health. I want my fellow senior members tolive a long and healthy life. so mandated weight standards would only serve to help them in the long run.

......unless the mission failed in the short. 

I agree that we need to ACT and look professional to be percieved as professionals.  A single uniform will help with that.

Weight and groom standards could help with that as well....but.....unlike AD USAF we don't have the benefit of a professional recruiting and training system to replace those who no longer meet the standards.  We have to relie on volunteers to fill our ranks and getting people who can do the job well is more important than getting people who look good doing the job well.

USAF weight standards are all about looks......not health, not mission accomplishment, but looks.  And the USAF paid a lot of lip service to the weight managment program while still letting by those who were overweight but critical to their mission.

I'm not against manditory weight standards....but we must be prepared for the FACT that we will fail in our mission if we kick out those who don't meet standards.