"Corporate Uniform" Gone!!

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Sorry I'm late to the party, and I wish I'd have seen this sooner, but I have to say...

The "corporate service uniform" is gone? It's GONE?!?

YES!

(Also, to CyBorg: It's not just the uniform that HWSRN peed in the Air Force's corn flakes about. At least 40 other reasons that I'm aware of, through semi-official, semi-corroborated RUMINT.)

[RiverAux]

Unless the Air Force makes an official statement to the contrary, I still stand by my opinion this is strictly an internal CAP (NEC) decision.

Obviously CAP made the decision, the question is whether it was something the AF was pressuring us to do. 

Now, if this was done as a regular agenda item, CAP-USAF would have been forced to put some sort of comment on it and we would know what their position was.  But, that wasn't the case.

I wonder what the CAP-USAF comments are in the official meeting notes when the CSU was originally approved?   

Incidentally, with Buckeye's post this thread has popped into the top 10 threads (by replies) of all time on CAPTalk.  First new entry on the list in almost two years. 

[Eclipse]

I wonder what the CAP-USAF comments are in the official meeting notes when the CSU was originally approved?   

Was it ever run through channels?  I thought it was basically a last-minute, no agenda deal.

[flyboy53]

Ok guys, you've really beat this one to death. You act like kids with their hands caught in the cookie jar and then you respond the same way everytime. You thrive at the quazi-military affiliation/status and the moment someone says "no" or standards are imposed, you yell, I'm a civilian, you can't treat me like that and you run home screaming all the way. I really think Ma Blue was very patient about this whole thing. Remember, we are still the Air Force auxiliary by federal law...even with the most recent Aux On/Off legislation. That pretty much places us in a similar (sic) vein as the Air National Guard (federal status only when activated; a governor's big stick the rest of the time). So the Air Force has imposed a standard if you want to wear their uniform. What's wrong with that...imagine HEALTHY CAP members? At the recent National Staff College, one or more AF officers complained about the multitude of uniform combinations. Those officers in the know at the college knew in October that the uniform was on its way out. The TPU/CSU represents a horrible time for this organization and HWSRN still is the Air Force poster child on how we are perceived. Do you really want to look like him? Finally, instead of complaining, remember that we are supposed to be mentors/supervisors/leaders of cadets, who, for the most part, laugh at us because of our lack of military bearing and poor appearance. We need to work at chaging that and losing this uniform is a good start. The only positive I would hope to come from this is that National organize a uniform/badge/ribbon  board and test things before getting Ma Blue's permission.

[Eclipse]

That pretty much places us in a similar (sic) vein as the Air National Guard (federal status only when activated; a governor's big stick the rest of the time). So the Air Force has imposed a standard if you want to wear their uniform.

Please feel free to cite any evidence you have in this matter relating to the CSU. 

Also, last I checked, the Guard issued uniforms and paid their members, swore them in as commissioned officers, and provided them with a whole host of benefits.  Therefore not exactly the same situation, right?

What a lot of people seem to forget is that military service is not a one-way street of benefit with the soldier or airman providing their skills and time for free.  When you raise your hand in the military, you agree to obey your superiors, perform your duties, and make yourself ready, in exchange for pay, benefits, clothing, shelter, and health care.  In that case, it is expected and reasonable to salute and execute in nearly all manners.

CAP's paradigm, by design, is somewhat different, with its members providing their outside skills, time, and money, for altruistic satisfaction of service to the country.  In most cases the scale of service and benefit is heavily tipped to the member's side, in the country's favor, which is why in all things the impact to the membership should be considered as the paramount factor.

[flyboy53]

The last time I checked, a National Guard or Reserve officer/enlisted was a civilian unless they were activated that's what the (sic) meant. That's why that get four pay periods for two-day UTA weekends. Care to challenge that one?

[Eclipse]

The last time I checked, a National Guard or Reserve officer/enlisted was a civilian unless they were activated that's what the (sic) meant. That's why that get four pay periods for two-day UTA weekends. Care to challenge that one?

No, because you are missing the point.

[lordmonar]

Okay.....let's just let this one die.

[flyboy53]

I didn't miss your point and I do agree with some of your comments. I understand that this dramatic uniform change has a substantial impact on those CAP officers who chose to wear the TPU/CSU, but the impact seems to be focused on the cost of the service coat that a lot of people couldn't afford in the first place, not the shirts or the pants, etc. What does that have to do with a military officer you ask? You should know that a military officer isn't issued his or her dress or utility uniforms. They have to pay for them, too. Change also happens dramatically in the Air Force. In my Air Force career, I think I was one of the last group of airmen issued 1505s and rather short-lived long sleved light blue shirts in basic training. I think I got to wear the 1505s one month and only one of those long-sleved shirts before they were phased out pretty much at the same time. I had to buy the new uniform items, four each, out of pocket, on the pay scale of an airman basic (about $250 a month in the 70s). My uniform allowance didn't kick in yet, and if I remember correctly, it was only about $5 a month. The current Air Force uniform was implemented in a similiar way. Existing supplies were depleted and you had to buy the whole new uniform even if you were only replacing a tie or flight cap. That was $350 to $500 all at once. The new mess dress was the same way....mine cost $500 when the medals and metalic-embroidered rank was added. I had to buy the uniform, I was a senior NCO and it was required. The point is that change always comes at a cost, it's your choice what to do or how to proceed. Are we strong and willing to move forward over the obstacle, or stuck on a treadmill of complaints?

[RiverAux]

I wonder what the CAP-USAF comments are in the official meeting notes when the CSU was originally approved?   

I just checked the March 2006 NB minutes and it was not a regular agenda item -- brought up during the Development Committee report.  There were no CAP-USAF comments noted in the minutes. 

Normally, CAP-USAF would also provide comments on new regulations, but as we all know, 39-1 hasn't been modified since the adoption of the CSU, so that eliminated another possible way to get official word of CAP-USAF's opinion on the matter. 

[Pumbaa]

The TPU was brought into existence under shall we say dubious circumstances.  It 'might' look good, but it was still ill conceived.  If I remember correctly when it first came out, these forums were rather hostile towards them. (lest we forget)

I say good riddance, it is time to erase to let this one die the death it deserves.

Maybe HWWSNM will adopt if for his Ranger Corps now.

[billford1]

Ok guys, you've really beat this one to death. You act like kids with their hands caught in the cookie jar and then you respond the same way everytime. You thrive at the quazi-military affiliation/status and the moment someone says "no" or standards are imposed, you yell, I'm a civilian, you can't treat me like that and you run home screaming all the way. I really think Ma Blue was very patient about this whole thing. Remember, we are still the Air Force auxiliary by federal law...even with the most recent Aux On/Off legislation. That pretty much places us in a similar (sic) vein as the Air National Guard (federal status only when activated; a governor's big stick the rest of the time). So the Air Force has imposed a standard if you want to wear their uniform. What's wrong with that...imagine HEALTHY CAP members? At the recent National Staff College, one or more AF officers complained about the multitude of uniform combinations. Those officers in the know at the college knew in October that the uniform was on its way out. The TPU/CSU represents a horrible time for this organization and HWSRN still is the Air Force poster child on how we are perceived. Do you really want to look like him? Finally, instead of complaining, remember that we are supposed to be mentors/supervisors/leaders of cadets, who, for the most part, laugh at us because of our lack of military bearing and poor appearance. We need to work at chaging that and losing this uniform is a good start. The only positive I would hope to come from this is that National organize a uniform/badge/ribbon  board and test things before getting Ma Blue's permission.

I agree with you that we have a poor appearance and and lack Military Bearing. CAP has what it started with for uniforms and organizational structure. A lot of people in CAP wear the AF uniform and I agree they should in many cases exercise more care with how they wear it. As far as organizing a uniform/badge/ribbon  board would that be different that the "Uniform Team" I've heard about? What kind of outcome would you envision for what uniform CAP members should wear?

[flyboy53]

I agree with you that we have a poor appearance and and lack Military Bearing. CAP has what it started with for uniforms and organizational structure. A lot of people in CAP wear the AF uniform and I agree they should in many cases exercise more care with how they wear it. As far as organizing a uniform/badge/ribbon  board would that be different that the "Uniform Team" I've heard about? What kind of outcome would you envision for what uniform CAP members should wear?

I really think one of those uniforms has been locked in place by the Air Force. As for other options, I would hope the uniform team/board would come up with suggestions, test them in field wearing periods and then seek approval up the chain. That's the way the Air Force does it now. That's part of the reason why the sleve braid rank for officers got shot down when the new uniform was designed. It wasn't popular in the field. I would hope that charging the uniform board to operate the same way, would stop the knee jerk type of changes that we have now. Do you realize that lack of input was how most of the speciality badges were designed? The membership needs to be able to make input on such changes. You know I was angry at the four changes made to the organizational/command patch. Then I found out afterward that the AF didn't want anything showing Air Force Auxiliary on uniform items worn during our "special missions." I read about that somewhere in some official Air Force document. Would that knowledge have softened the harsh critism that followed the latest patch change? I would hope I am optimistic about the organization. I keep hearing about strategic planning concepts. When you are at Maxwell for a school, you see things from a strategic concept. Yet, when you return to the field, you sense a disconnect and membership that are disgruntled because they are out of touch and focusing on local problems. In reality, that has been what was echoed here with the frustration behind this vote.

[Eclipse]

Then I found out afterward that the AF didn't want anything showing Air Force Auxiliary on uniform items worn during our "special missions." I read about that somewhere in some official Air Force document. Would that knowledge have softened the harsh critism that followed the latest patch change?

Wive's tale.  Cite please.

Much of the CAP vs. USAF/Aux issues are holdover procedures from HWSRN's famous attempt to move us to HLS.

[Gunner C]

Much of the CAP vs. USAF/Aux issues are holdover procedures from HWSRN's famous attempt to move us to HLS.

Wive's tale.  Please cite.

[Eclipse]

Much of the CAP vs. USAF/Aux issues are holdover procedures from HWSRN's famous attempt to move us to HLS.

Wive's tale.  Please cite.

I'll capitulate, I have nothing to cite, though I think his budgetary battles and the threats to move us to HLS are fairly common knowledge on this board.

No more, or less, than what it says on our aircraft or patches changes our PC status.

[RiverAux]

I don't think I've ever heard that TP tried or even threatened to try to move us to HLS and I'm here every now and again 

Certainly moving CAP to HLS has been discussed here, but only by us lowly CAPTalkers.  Can't recall anyone ever mentioning that this was something NHQ was "threatening" the AF with.

[NCRblues]

I think we all can agree that TP pee'ed into one too many coffees, but threatening the air force with the homeland security? I have never heard of this, from any form, either it be here or just the basic word of mouth rumor mill. I do believe that the TP era antics played a role in this but maybe not the main role.

[Eclipse]

I don't think I've ever heard that TP tried or even threatened to try to move us to HLS and I'm here every now and again 

Certainly moving CAP to HLS has been discussed here, but only by us lowly CAPTalkers.  Can't recall anyone ever mentioning that this was something NHQ was "threatening" the AF with.

The coffee-house fodder that came to me, through a source I trust, was that this was around the time CAP was embroiled in a budget crisis because the DOD was hitting everybody with "war taxes" - look at the boards in the Dec 2006 timeframe.

This is also the general timeframe when there were talks about making us a MAJCOM (thus the patch), or at least moving us up the chain from AETC.

Anyway, the scuttle was that when told of the budget cuts, he had a shouting match with whoever it was he thought was taking his money and stormed out threatened to restructure under DHS, which then prompted a lot of the discussion here and elsewhere.

An increased role in HLS and/or LE then started the buzz about PC issues and the insignia.

Rinse, repeat.

[MIKE]

Ding.