"Corporate Uniform" Gone!!

[FW]

I respect what Col. Carr has written however, the facts about how the "CSU" came into existance and, the Air Force's acceptance is a little different than he explained:

I didn't see where he said anything about how we got the uniform in the first place.

He didn't however, he implied the Air Force was not in agreement with it.  As the statement makes clear; after some serious negotiating, they agreed to it's use.
Now, it may be said it shoudn't have come to us like that however, IMHO, getting rid of it in the same quick and secretive manner is no better.  All this does is muddy the waters and give the "Tums" employees some overtime.....

[RiverAux]

Its not been a secret that there was some serious issues between AF and CAP over the introduction of this uniform, though your information is by far the most detailed I've ever seen on it.

[Thom]

Well, everyone else has weighed in, I guess I'll include my two cents:

Keep in mind, I am writing this from the perspective of a relatively new member, having only been in CAP for a few months and not having experienced much of the history of these uniform issues.

1.  I agree completely with Pylons earlier post about the haphazard manner in which the CAP leadership seems to make decisions, and the lack of visibility that the majority of the membership has into those decisions and the reasoning behind them.  I need to (as others said) print that post out and keep it as a reminder.

2.  I personally thought the CSU looked better than the Grey/White, BUT I could live with the Grey/White happily if it was just a complete uniform system.  No coat, no headgear, no standardization, means it isn't really a uniform alternative to the AF Blues.  I'm using the weight standard for the AF Blues as a weight-loss target to keep me motivated, but in the meantime I'd like a complete uniform option.

3.  As a relatively new member, I don't know anything about the history of how the CSU was adopted, and I DON'T CARE.  I shouldn't need to know about politics from 3 YEARS AGO in order to know how to spend my money as a new member.  And, as a point of information, the materials that they send to new members now are splattered with equal representation of the CSU with the Grey/White uniform, if not slightly more pics of the CSU.  So, you'll have a lot of new members, who have no knowledge of the history behind any of this, who see the materials and think, gosh the CSU is more complete, and has more pics, I should probably get that!

Finally, I am OK with the Air Force forcing us to get rid of the CSU, IF THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED.  And, if so, JUST TELL US.  I'm a big boy, I can take it if the AF was just PO'd about hefty CAP officers in a close facsimile of the AF Blues.  But be honest, and tell us that is why you did it.

Any chance they'll try to 'fluff up' the Grey/White option with a complete set of standards and headgear and outergarments now?  Ok, I can dream.

Thom

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Lieutenant Hamilton:

I've seen CAP go through a lot of uniform changes in the 16 years I've been involved on and off.  Very rarely have I seen a cogent explanation as to "why," but most of us just suck it up and get on with things.

However, I do share your opinion that we should be told the "why and how"...not that we'll get it, but it's a good idea.

[Майор Хаткевич]

It isn't even the issue of getting rid of it. It's the issue of getting rid of a nice looking uniform.

The CSU looks great with or without the service coat. If it had to come down to this, then it should have been to dumping the coat, not the whole uniform. If the Air Force didn't like the design of the coat, fine, go to gray slides for it, no braid etc.

I was very impressed by it when I first saw it, and it most definitively looked that much better than any other uniform SMs have the option of wearing besides the blues.

On the other hand, in 2010 a who bunch of SM will go to Halloween parties dressed up as MGen TP

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Just a guess, but I'm wondering if they're trying to do away with anything reminiscent of Pineda.

[davidsinn]

Just a guess, but I'm wondering if they're trying to do away with anything reminiscent of Pineda.

SHHHHH we don't speak his name. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Just a guess, but I'm wondering if they're trying to do away with anything reminiscent of Pineda.

SHHHHH we don't speak his name. 

OK then...trying to get rid of anything associated with the former National CC of CAP who designed a uniform that seems to have cheesed-off the AF...

[NCRblues]

I would say you nailed it on getting rid of teddy's pimp uniform. I mean, he stepped on so many toes inside AND outside the organization why would this shock anyone?

[Eclipse]

Just a guess, but I'm wondering if they're trying to do away with anything reminiscent of Pineda.

SHHHHH we don't speak his name. 

OK then...trying to get rid of anything associated with the former National CC of CAP who designed a uniform that seems to have cheesed-off the AF...

The correct term is "He Who Shall Remain Nameless" or HWSRN for short.  The terminology was added officially to CAPR 20-1 in early 2008.

[LtCol057]

Looks like Vanguard is already acting on the corporate jacket.  On it's website, the banner is still there, but when you click on it, the page is blank. 

[Gunner C]

They probably didn't have that many on the rack - costs too much to keep that much stock on something that probably didn't exactly "fly" off the rack at any given time.

[LtCol057]

I was getting ready to order one, but had a nagging feeling to wait a couple of weeks.  Looks like it was a pretty good feeling.  My group commander told me he has one he'll let me get since he's leaving CAP at the end of the month. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Just a guess, but I'm wondering if they're trying to do away with anything reminiscent of Pineda.

SHHHHH we don't speak his name. 

OK then...trying to get rid of anything associated with the former National CC of CAP who designed a uniform that seems to have cheesed-off the AF...

The correct term is "He Who Shall Remain Nameless" or HWSRN for short.  The terminology was added officially to CAPR 20-1 in early 2008.

Got it.

[RiverAux]

Now, if we take the limited information we have about this change at face value -- that it was prompted by the Air Force, shouldn't we be putting a little more blame on the AF for this whole fiasco? 

Apparently at one point they did say to CAP that the CSU was good enough for them, right?  They apparently demanded changes in the original proposal, which were made, right?

So, at some point after the CSU was approved by the USAF powers that be and by CAP, the AF MUST have changed their minds about it.  According to an earlier post, CAP-USAF has apparently been upset by it for 18 months -- but its been in use for over THREE YEARS!

So, if this change was prompted primarily by AF concerns, then it seems to me that the burden of anger here should be on the AF, not on the CAP leadership.

Now, one possibility is that CAP is trying to lay the blame for this change off on the AF and that they really haven't been upset by the adoption of this uniform.  Perhaps the primary reason behind the change is to reduce uniform combinations and they're just using the AF to redirect anger away from themselves.  I don't really believe that though. 

[FW]

River, I have no idea what the real reason was for ridding us of the CSU however, I have personally asked the last 2 CAP-USAF commanders if there was any further objection "up the chain" to this issue.  Each answer was, "NO". 

As far as I'm concerned, this is - and always was- an internal CAP matter.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Now, if we take the limited information we have about this change at face value -- that it was prompted by the Air Force, shouldn't we be putting a little more blame on the AF for this whole fiasco? 

Apparently at one point they did say to CAP that the CSU was good enough for them, right?  They apparently demanded changes in the original proposal, which were made, right?

So, at some point after the CSU was approved by the USAF powers that be and by CAP, the AF MUST have changed their minds about it.  According to an earlier post, CAP-USAF has apparently been upset by it for 18 months -- but its been in use for over THREE YEARS!

So, if this change was prompted primarily by AF concerns, then it seems to me that the burden of anger here should be on the AF, not on the CAP leadership.

Now, one possibility is that CAP is trying to lay the blame for this change off on the AF and that they really haven't been upset by the adoption of this uniform.  Perhaps the primary reason behind the change is to reduce uniform combinations and they're just using the AF to redirect anger away from themselves.  I don't really believe that though.

Like you said, the information we have is limited, and I'm really doubtful if we're going to get anything more.

However, Colonel Dave Winters, OHWG CC, posted this on his Wing's site, and it would indicate that there was indeed AF pressure:

Elimination of the double breasted uniform combination


Members of Ohio Wing,

At the most recent National Executive Committee (NEC) meeting the NEC voted to eliminate the double breasted corporate uniform effective 1 January 2011. The NEC choose to act now rather than have the Air Force impose a change on us. And believe me when I tell you, we were not very far from having that happen. So, after 1 January 2011 the only uniform combination's authorized for CAP senior members will be the Air Force style (blue epaulet shirt with blue slacks/skirt) or the white aviator shirt with grey slacks/skirt.

Please wait for the interim guidance to be published before you make additional uniform purchases. When that guidance is published I will forward it through your chain of command.

Thank you!

Dave Winters, Colonel, CAP
Commander, Ohio Wing

So it would seem to me that Col. Winters has some information that the AF was, indeed, unhappy.

However, River, I second what you said.  If the AF was so hot about the uniform, why wait until it was in such wide circulation and after a lot of CAP'ers had dropped coin to buy the thing?

As far as reducing uniform combinations...I'll believe that when I see a definitive 39-1 without a load of ICL's attached, along with a minimum five-year moratorium on any uniform changes.

When I first joined back in '93, there were fewer uniform combinations than there are now (on the SM side, anyway):

AF-style (four-button coat), blue nameplate, berry boards, CAP cutouts only
BDU's
Smurf suit
Flight suits in green, royal blue and orange (aircrew only)
Guyabera shirt
Grey/white/blazer, no epaulettes, no ribbons, black nameplate with grade attached
Polo shirt

Now, we have:
AF-style, grey boards, U.S. and CAP cutouts, depending on grade
Grey, blue and brushed silver nameplates (latter two in both AF-type and CAP-distinctive)
TPU/CSU until 2011
Grey/white, ribbons, rank slides
BDU's
BBDU's
Utility jumpsuit (which I mostly wear; worlds better than the "Smurf suit")
Green flight suit and flight jacket
Blue flight suit and flight jacket
Black A-2 jacket
Gore-Tex outergarment

(If I left any out, put it down to age-related brain deterioration)

And many in CAP are pushing for the ABU, which I really don't think we need.  For field ops, I'm good with the utility jumpsuit or BBDU's.

Back when the AF changed its service dress, I remember there was talk of us keeping the old four-button with CAP buttons, blue CAP nameplate, CAP cutouts, hard rank, no commissioning stripe, etc.  That would have been perfectly OK with me.  My old one is hanging upstairs in my closet.

The concept of reducing uniform combinations is a bit like pollies saying they're going to cut government spending...a lot of talk but very little action.

[Eclipse]

^ Where would new members get jackets no longer in production?

[ol'fido]

I would imagine from the guy who up until a few days ago was making CSU Service Coats.

[FW]

The concept of reducing uniform combinations is a bit like pollies saying they're going to cut government spending...a lot of talk but very little action.

A good comment.

BTW, Col Winter's  letter just paraphrased Col Carr's words about this subject. 

Unless the Air Force makes an official statement to the contrary, I still stand by my opinion this is strictly an internal CAP (NEC) decision.