"Corporate Uniform" Gone!!

[LTC Don]

As several have already suggested, I'm fully in support of simply removing the AF slides and blue nameplate from the CSU (OR, we go back to the original blue slides with the embroidered CAP on them and keeping the blue nameplate...which I like even better), and adopting the grey slides and grey nameplate as the new Standard CSU.  This is clearly the best and cheapest way to salvage what is the best looking of the two corporate style uniforms. The service coat can remain unchanged with the exception that the US should come off and the original CAP cutouts go back on the lapel.  The military style metal insignia is easily obtained from multiple civilian public safety sources. 

There are many however, that will not want to pony up the coin for the service coat, so the blazer should still be a viable option.  The only question becomes, will a civilian 'navy blue' blazer still look good with a mil-spec AF blue pair of slacks?

I fully support dropping the grey slacks/white shirt combination in favor of the blue pants/white shirt combination with the grey slides and grey nameplate (OR, as mentioned above, going back to the original, blue CAP slides and keeping the blue nameplate). Either is acceptable.

I could also get my head around dropping the Air Force style uniform, IF we could get everyone into the modified CSU (grey slides/grey nameplate), because I also believe we should be a one-uniform organization.


Cheers,

[Strick]

They greys have to go, we look silly wearing military grade with this combo, they should jut go backto using the black name tag. + noribbons on this combo

[tinker]

... there plenty-o-Public Safety catalogs that CAP and CAPers can dream from to get new threads ...

Yup.  Golf shirt and 511-style khaki pants would be fine with me.  Not criticizing those who did, but personally I did not join CAP because I wanted to play soldier.  I joined for the opportunity to fly with some kind of useful purpose.  I read these uniform threads for the same reason I read "News of the Weird."  YMMV, of course.

[Strick]

... there plenty-o-Public Safety catalogs that CAP and CAPers can dream from to get new threads ...

Yup.  Golf shirt and 511-style khaki pants would be fine with me.  Not criticizing those who did, but personally I did not join CAP because I wanted to play soldier.  I joined for the opportunity to fly with some kind of useful purpose.  I read these uniform threads for the same reason I read "News of the Weird."  YMMV, of course.

You know............. back in WWII we were not playing soldier, being uniformed is a big part of CAP heritage.  We are not a flying club.  We also do more than flying(Cadet Program).

[Eclipse]

+1  Uniforms, and the discipline to wear them properly, are supposed to be part of making us a professionalized group.

Those that think they are too much hassle, are both missing the point and making the point at the same time.  A lot of our members would fly in shorts and flip-flops, while scribbling their releases on the back of a bar napkin if we let them.

[EMT-83]

A lot of our members would fly in shorts and flip-flops, while scribbling their releases on the back of a bar napkin if we let them.

Didn't think anyone would recognize us. Must remember to wear sunglasses next time.

[davidsinn]

Any bets on when the first official word on this starts coming out?

Now:

Gentlemen,


Needless to say there are plenty of upset members (probably pissed-off and downright hostile is a better description) over the NEC's action to eliminate the Corporate Uniform (TPU).  Some because they invested hard earned money purchasing the uniform, some because they felt only the NB has the authority to make uniform decisions, and others for various reasons.   

The following is a synopsis of information presented by Col Joe Vazques, MER/CC, on the NEC's action.

   1. Something had to be done.  The Air Force has one basic uniform and CAP has three.  No matter how you slice it, somebody was going to be disappointed when we started consolidating.  Either the white and gray goes, the white and blue goes, or the blue and blue goes (ie – we get completely out of the Air Force Uniform).
   2. Knowing something had to be done, it is better to decide that issue now than wait 4 months and have that many more senior members potentially buying the wrong uniform.
   3. The Air Force does NOT like our very over weight senior members showing up at Air Force bases in a near approximation of the Air Force uniform.  Nobody wants to clearly say that out loud, but that is behind much of the feedback going to Col. Ward.
   4. Col. Ward is not going to back down.  His public comments "my only surprise is that it took CAP 18 months to act on this" indicate he was close to acting on his own.  His private comments during the closed sessions back that up.


The Winter NB can of course vote this back in.  If they do, we will be lucky if the reaction is merely to put red epaulets on everything.  The options open to the Air Force include banning CAP senior members entirely from wearing a blue uniform (ie – everybody gets to wear the white and grays), to simply enforcing the decision the NEC already made.  I have reminded some of my commanders that the last time CAP went to war with the Air Force we lost, and got a Board of Governors.  The NEC has provided cover to the NB by taking on this explosive issue, and they should be grateful they did not have to make it.

Please feel free to relay this information to your personnel.

Thanks,

Chuck Carr

           

[Strick]

Even more reason to ditch the AF uniform and keep the CSU.  I always feels like the AF does not care for us. 

[Eclipse]

I always feels like the AF does not care for us.

Feel free to cite anything you've heard, know, seen, or smelled on that.

Saying it doesn't make it true, but doesn't help the situation, either.

[AlphaSigOU]

...I always feels like the AF does not care for us.

Further perpetuating the perceived 'red-headed step-child' attitude CAP senses is coming from Ma Blue. Granted, we've probably torqued them off plenty of times; uniform wear being but one of the many posterior irritants.

I wouldn't be surprised if we get a divorce from the RealAirForce® and get picked up by Homeland Security.

[Eclipse]

I wouldn't be surprised if we get a divorce from the RealAirForce® and get picked up by Homeland Security.

Please don't start that again. Its starting to feel like 2006/7 around these parts.

[Strick]

PM and I will give you a particular situation

[Eclipse]

PM and I will give you a particular situation

Hit the link to the left and send it...

[Eclipse]

PM and I will give you a particular situation

Hit the link to the left and send it...

The example Strick cited was hearsay from the early '90's.
Not relevant in today's post 9/11/Katrina/Challenger CAP. 

Our uniform issues are an itch the USAF would probably like to scratch once and for all, as would we.  Nothing more.

Those of use with real-world experience at a scope outside CAPTalk know that in most cases these issues are rarely discussed much in the "wet" world.

I guarantee you there are still members wearing smurf suits to missions, and some that never heard of the CSU, let alone the stand down.

Performance people.  That's all the USAF and 1AF actually cares about. 

The rest is coffee-house fodder, nothing more.

[cnitas]

I always feels like the AF does not care for us.

Feel free to cite anything you've heard, know, seen, or smelled on that.

One thing I just read, proported to be from a region/CC, was:

"The Air Force does NOT like our very over weight senior members showing up at Air Force bases in a near approximation of the Air Force uniform.  Nobody wants to clearly say that out loud, but that is behind much of the feedback going to Col. Ward."

I am not sure how to read that.  Either the AF is telling our leaders directly, your people are fat and we dont want them in a uniform.  And our leaders are afraid to relay that message to the membership....OR the AF is afraid to bring the issue out into the open with our leaders and whispers it into the ears of a few staffers. 

Either way, is a problem in my book. 

The bottom line: If there was a deep respect for CAP and what we do by AF leaders, then they would not be concerned with fat CAP members wearing corporate uniforms on bases.  They would be thanking them for stepping up and volunteering their time and money to complete AF missions.

Performance people.  That's all the USAF and 1AF actually cares about.

I wish this topic was on CAP's performance.  It is not.  It is about the elimination of a military style uniform for our overweight members apparently because "The Air Force does NOT like our very over weight senior members showing up at Air Force bases in a near approximation of the Air Force uniform."

[AirAux]

I'll bet ol' Curt LeMay would stand up for us, buy us a cigar, a brandy and toast us and what our fatties can do..

[RicL]

I've for the most part refrained from jumping into the conversation because of all the angst and conjecture taking place. All I'll say is that I tend to agree with the AF side of things. CAP has no need for multiple corporate uniforms and the blue/white corporate combo -did- bear a close resemblance to the air force blues.

There are many places where wearing an AF style uniform isn't appropriate, such as fund raising. Per reg's we can't wear BDU's/Blues while fundraising. If you swap out the air force uniform for the blue/white corporate uniform and wear that instead while fundraising there will be many still that draw the conclusion that we're associated with the air force. Many people just aren't familiar with the AF uniforms.

I'll admit that I've seen my share of slobs wearing both the AF style uniforms and the corporate uniforms. For the most part, there's no regular uniform inspection for senior members although I think it would do a lot of good. I don't blame them one bit.

Honestly, I don't get what the uproar is about. I'm going into my 3rd year as a senior member with a break between year two and the present. I've never purchased nor worn the blue/white corporate uniform. For events that the AF style uniforms aren't appropriate I wear the polo. I always thought the white/blue's looked too much like an airline pilot's garb. Yes, I understand that some members spent money on the uniform and they won't be able to wear it.

Some of the people here on captalk have gone right off the deep end about them getting rid of a corporate uniform. Do everyone a favor and at least think before you post. Is this a side of Civil Air Patrol that you want the public seeing when they go looking for other people's experiences? I'm not saying that captalk should be censored but at least try to remember that captalk's a publicly accessible forum. Recruiting new members for your squadron doesn't do any good if you turn around and trashtalk the organization later on and drive others away. Unfortunately, when you post about CAP being the "redheaded step child", question the NB/BOG/NEC's decision making abilities and spout unsubstantiated nonsense that's exactly what you're doing.

If you're ticked off enough that you're considering leaving the organization over a uniform change there's something wrong to begin with. If you think you'd do a better job than the current people holding office at NHQ then put your nose to the grindstone and advance. Work toward fixing what you perceive is wrong. At the very least save your comments for a well worded, civil letter of comment and send it up through the chain.

*walks away shaking his head*

[LTC Don]

All valid points.  Which merely points out this is a complex issue.  The overriding issue above all is the haphazard way the national leadership has conducted itself regarding uniform development over the past many years.

There are many who have purchased the spendy blue service coat, including at least one in my unit.  I have put together the shirt/pants combo.  He's out a whole lotta money, and my wife and I both are now out money as well.

Having been around during the maroon epaulet debacle, this just re-opens a festering wound, and really diminishes my respect for the Air Force (I can say this having had multiple family members in blue including one deployed to the sand box right now.).

If the Air Force has that much say over what we wear, then let them take over all uniform development, take it totally out of CAPs hands.

If not, and one of the corporate uniforms goes, then as I said before, let it be the greys and simply replace the blue slides/nameplate with the greys or let us go back to the original blue slides with the CAP embroidered, remove the US off of the service jacket, and put the CAP cutouts in their place.

It is a stability problem that is causing the membership hard earned money, this is far from the first time, and it needs to stop. Now.



Cheers,

[Eclipse]

Honestly, I don't get what the uproar is about. I'm going into my 3rd year as a senior member with a break between year two and the present. I've never purchased nor worn the blue/white corporate uniform. For events that the AF style uniforms aren't appropriate I wear the polo. I always thought the white/blue's looked too much like an airline pilot's garb. Yes, I understand that some members spent money on the uniform and they won't be able to wear it.

Obviously.

Congratulations on (presumably) not being overweight, having a beard, or long hair, nor ever being in a situation where you put in hours/weeks/months of effort into a CAP project or duty, only to feel like a second-class citizen because you have a thyroid condition which will not allow you to shed enough weight to get into spec.

Congratulations on never having to visit a military base commander to beg for resources, surrounded by your subordinates in service dress, and having to explain why you are wearing a golf shirt or plain jacket.

Congratulations on not making the extra effort and incurring the extra expense to look presentable and follow the rules for your country and then being told "eh, not so much".

This is a situation the ACA, USCGAux, and NSCC do not find themselves in, and it apparently needs to be noted again, that we are now holding ourselves to a higher standard than the Army and USAF in that the grooming standard for those services are performance based, not height/weight.

As someone who appreciates the military affiliation, perhaps it really is time to drop the pretense, the ribbons, and the other bling, and just move to the golf shirt for all and business attire for formal occasions and move on.

[RiverAux]

Col. Carr's comments on the issue are surprisingly (and refreshingly) blunt.  Apparently this has been an issue for almost a year and a half that CAP has chosen not to address until now.  So, there has been plenty of opportunity to bring this up and give everyone a say, but that was not done.