"Corporate Uniform" Gone!!

[Eclipse]

I've never been to a mission base where there weren't plenty of people who weren't going near
an airplane that day who were still wearing a flight suit.

If you think that's odd or CAP-specific, you must never have been on an Air Force base then.

CAP members wearing flightsuits to unit staff meetings make that comment all the time.

Last I checked we are not in the Air Force, and their uniform wear policies are irrelevant to CAP.
Most aircrew, and many other MOS' have a specification that there normal uniform, regardless of
duty, is the flightsuit, which is why you have a lot of CAP-RAPS driving to meetings in the green bag.

Our regs say "when flying".

Most people in the USAF are also required to wear their blues on Mondays, but somehow that's escaped those same people who think the flight suit is fine for a an SLS/CLC.   

[heliodoc]

Hey Eclipse

How come your not on this thread telling/asking folks if they've quit like you addressed me in another thread for me rapping CAP...

How come you are not rapping the folks here telling them they are full of nonsense like you told me

Joker

You got an answer for everyone on this thread, don't you

Go on keep telling me I full of non sense  I think there a lot of folks thinking maybe you fall into the same category, huh?

[NCRblues]

I guess it's a little of that left over hope and change spirit.... but good point, I'm sure pressure to remove this uniform was not from your average member, more than likely (and let's be honest with ourselves) ma blue.

[Eclipse]

I love how you guys think that the average member has a say in this.
If they didn't ask for your input before they made this decision, what makes you think they will pay attention to your input now?

They won't, which is the point.

I can't tell you how many times I have been solicited for an opinion by my Wing CC on issues which have far-less immediate and direct member-impact than something like this.  Do my views get passed up the chain?  No idea, but the illusion pacifies me.

CAP is not a democracy, I get that (neither is the US of A), but it is also not a top-down command structure.  It is a participative process involving a board of directors with more than 50 people on it.

And those people are supposed to represent the best interest of the corporation and the membership (I grant in that order).  I fail to see how this does either.

Frankly its the blind-sidedness that gets me the most.  Something on the agenda which indicates that a change is coming allows me as a member to consider whether I should spend my money (ala Narrow band).

If I choose to by a VX-150 knowing full well that in 30 days its a door stop, that's my decision, otherwise...

[Eclipse]

Hey Eclipse

How come your not on this thread telling/asking folks if they've quit like you addressed me in another thread for me rapping CAP...

How come you are not rapping the folks here telling them they are full of nonsense like you told me
Joker

You got an answer for everyone on this thread, don't you

Go on keep telling me I full of non sense  I think there a lot of folks thinking maybe you fall into the same category, huh?

Yes, Helio, you're entirely right.

I guess there's never a time when you can support an organization, but still find issue with an individual decision.

You got me.  I'm full of it.  Well played.

[RiverAux]

Here's the Commander's Letter announcing the then new Corporate Uniform. It is dated June, 2006. That is 3 years 5 months ago.   
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/5760868/OFFICE-OF-THE-NATIONAL-COMMANDER-NATIONAL-HEADQUARTERS-CIVIL-AIR

It was apparently actually officially promulgated in March of 2006 according to details in that letter. 

[heliodoc]

^^^
Now there's a worthwhile document to save in docstoc. now isn't it

That piece of paper will get a cup of joe just about anywhere won't it??

Guess it's time to shelve that piece of history...

OOPs wait a moment....it will be another claim to fame for CAP...just like its SILLY smurfsuit

Now that piece of uniform is what really ID'd CAP's silliness in the late 70's and 80's and there were plenty o takers on that silly suit

Once again, this little exercise this past weekend at NEC, proves once again, CAP is a the helm of uniform changes for any given day, any given circumstance, any dog and pony show and usually at the cost of any given member.

I can see now, even more why we DO look like some Third World banana republic dictators ....  Should the AF really take us seriously???

Now will the real CAP stand up and GET to work...isn't there some Homeland Security support mission we can be at..    maybe handing out the left over CSU's at the Goodwill.  There could be some welll dressed less fortunate folk out there.. Then there would be more worry about CAP posers...I guess 

[Smithsonia]

I am not going to argue that May or March is any less precipitous than 3 years and 5 months. Three years a 7 months is too narrow a time frame to make a change. Obviously none of us have had a chance to wear these things out. Also, it seems to me that I couldn't get the Coat in 2006 and had to wait to early 2007 to buy my CSU. BUT, I could be off by a month or two. So for me, I've had mine under 3 years. Taken all together the expense was about $40. per wearing. I can rent a tuxedo for that.

The Air Force has a Virtual Uniform Policy Board so lowly airmen can comment on uniform changes. It still may not be a democracy but there is a period of comment open for consideration.
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123089413

[Major Carrales]

I am not going to argue that May or March is any less precipitous than 3 years and 5 months. Three years a 7 months is too narrow a time frame to make a change. Obviously none of us have had a chance to wear these things out. Also, it seems to me that I couldn't get the Coat in 2006 and had to wait to early 2007 to buy mine. BUT, I cold be off by a month or two. So for me, I've had mine under 3 years. Taken all together the expense was about $40. per wearing. I can rent a tuxedo for that.

The Air Force has a Virtual Uniform Policy Board so lowly airmen can comment on uniform changes. It still may not be a democracy but there is a period of comment open for consideration.
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123089413

If I recall, vanguard offered a discount for early orders. 

[Cecil DP]

The decision by the NEC to rid us of the "CSU" was not on the agenda.  Why it was brought up at this meeting is anyones guess however, the NB voted just 2 months ago to table this, and all uniform issues, until the winter 2011 meeting.  This was done to assess a rational strategy in forming an understandable uniform policy.  I guess the NEC thought it could bypass the process.....

It seems the NEC has decided to make a statement about the powers of the entire national board.  Seems like we're in for an interesting few months...

That's why at the end of the Agenda is an item for "New Business"

[Pylon]

The Air Force has a Virtual Uniform Policy Board so lowly airmen can comment on uniform changes. It still may not be a democracy but there is a period of comment open for consideration.
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123089413

While plenty of people have pointed out that CAP is not a democracy, certainly neither is the Air Force.  The virtual board for comments is not the only difference the Air Force has between how we each handle our uniform policies.

CAP typically has either seen motions come to the floor during new business, out of left field, without any prior time for uniform changes to be researched, considered, debated, or field tested (this is how the CSU was born, and it's exactly how it died also); Or sometimes uniform changes make it on an agenda, proposed by any member of the NB if they so choose, and the agenda is out there for a few weeks, maybe a month, before the same people who proposed the idea vote on it.

The Air Force on the other hand has a well-reasoned and thought-out process.  They have a committee for that:  The Air Force Uniform Board.  They receive suggestions from the field as well as receive taskings to explore, research, investigate, or develop from above. 

The Air Force Uniform Board then has the ability to take their time with each proposed uniform change.  They research how changes impact all of the members in the Air Force.  For example, they don't forget they have members in cold climates, forget they have females, forget they have NCOs, or any number of other things that CAP has actually done when they've made uniform decisions.  They discuss the impact each change will have, debate pros and cons and then make well-thought-out decisions.

This is what CAP is missing.  It's not about what type of coats we should or shouldn't have.  It's not about the color of epaulets, name plates, or sleeve braid looks best.  The problem is with the process.  The problem is that Civil Air Patrol refuses to use any sort of process by which to make decisions.  Instead, our "leaders" pull the fly-by-the-seat-of-our-pants maneuver over and over again. 

This uneducated and unrefined habit shows itself in just about every other arena of CAP's leadership, as well.  The shenanigans is not limited to just uniforms.  We're not just complaining because the changes are to the cool duds we can wear.   How many times has Civil Air Patrol changed our logo (or just added a new logo to the pile) without any clear justification of why we needed a logo change or needed an additional emblem?   How many times have we changed the decals on our vans and planes?  And then changed them back again?   How many Internet domains do we have for Civil Air Patrol now – eight?  More than ten?  And at least three complete changes to our main website's address in under six years?

Any regular company would be considered to be having a complete identity crisis and breakdown if it's corporate leadership kept making these types of changes every few months.

All of the rash, unreasonable changes continue to make members irate.  If it's not the CSU, maybe it was the fourth chest patch in under 5 years that CAP pilots and aircrew had to buy to keep their AF-style flight suit current.  If that didn't push some over the edge, maybe it was changing decals on the planes.  Twice.  No wait, three times and meanwhile, we don't have enough money to fly all of our cadets on O-flights or get in the training our aircrew could use.   So while it's easy to say "If you're willing to quit over a uniform, then good riddance" -- the truth of the matter is that everyone has a breaking point.  And CAP's leadership continues to make series and series of easily irksome, knee-jerk decisions that can, yes, eventually irritate plenty of our otherwise hardworking volunteers to the point of throwing up their hands.

I'm not a wearer of the CSU.  I didn't like the way it was conceived, and I'll admit that I'm a wearer of AF-style uniforms pretty much exclusively.  But as I mentioned, for me this isn't about corporate uniform wearers.  This is about how CAP insists on doing business.  Because no matter what uniform you wear, if any, this type of decision making will affect all of us.  Actually, it already has whether you realize it or not.

The change we need is in the unreasonable actions of our leadership who fail to see that their current model of governance is bad for Civil Air Patrol, not because it makes unpopular changes to our uniforms, but because it's an entirely idiotic way to run a huge organization.   Stop micromanaging, stop making decisions without any research or time put into them (and a few nights writing an agenda item doesn't count), stop and THINK.  Stop, consult, talk, research, read, and think before making decisions.  Leverage our huge volunteer base (who constantly volunteer their services to NHQ to see them fall on deaf ears) to do some of that work for you.  In the meantime, start looking into things that can actually move CAP forward.  How about looking into what CAP is going to do in the long-term for permanent meeting facilities for units and headquarters?  How about working on developing planned giving from all of our tens of thousands of CAP members and CAP alumni across the nation so we can one day enjoy the benefits of a large funding endowment?   How about working on unifying our missions and taskings?  Developing more and better training?   Clearer manuals, meatier pamphlets, and updated regulations that reflect present day CAP?    Anything that makes more of a difference than spur-of-the-moment decisions about the clothes we wear to work.

[Mustang]

Great job, Mike. One of the best posts I've ever seen on this board. 

I hope a copy of those comments finds its way into the hands of the BoG.

[BrianH76]

Does anyone else think there's more to this than we're seeing?  I've seen the CAP/CC, CV, and CS wearing the corporate uniform in some variety, and now the NEC votes suddenly to get rid of it.  The circumstances lead me to believe that something occurred behind the scenes (other than wanting to scale back the closet) to bring this on. 

[FW]

The change we need is in the unreasonable actions of our leadership who fail to see that their current model of governance is bad for Civil Air Patrol, not because it makes unpopular changes to our uniforms, but because it's an entirely idiotic way to run a huge organization.   Stop micromanaging, stop making decisions without any research or time put into them (and a few nights writing an agenda item doesn't count), stop and THINK.  Stop, consult, talk, research, read, and think before making decisions.  Leverage our huge volunteer base (who constantly volunteer their services to NHQ to see them fall on deaf ears) to do some of that work for you.  In the meantime, start looking into things that can actually move CAP forward.  How about looking into what CAP is going to do in the long-term for permanent meeting facilities for units and headquarters?  How about working on developing planned giving from all of our tens of thousands of CAP members and CAP alumni across the nation so we can one day enjoy the benefits of a large funding endowment?   How about working on unifying our missions and taskings?  Developing more and better training?   Clearer manuals, meatier pamphlets, and updated regulations that reflect present day CAP?    Anything that makes more of a difference than spur-of-the-moment decisions about the clothes we wear to work.

Excellent, Mike.  This paragraph should be framed on the wall of every NB member and repeated at every board meeting untill we see some real progress.  Even if this has happened in the past, it is a forgotten practice now.  Maybe someone will take this to heart and.....

[Spike]

You've been around the organization for a little while, is this the first uniform change that ever impacted you?  Do you think it will be the last?

There is a difference in replacing insignia with different insignia that costs $3.50 AND dumping upwards of $400.00 two weeks ago on a uniform that can only be worn for a short time.

BTW.....Vanguard is NOT taking back any CSU items.  Called this morning.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

The change we need is in the unreasonable actions of our leadership who fail to see that their current model of governance is bad for Civil Air Patrol, not because it makes unpopular changes to our uniforms, but because it's an entirely idiotic way to run a huge organization.   Stop micromanaging, stop making decisions without any research or time put into them (and a few nights writing an agenda item doesn't count), stop and THINK.  Stop, consult, talk, research, read, and think before making decisions.  Leverage our huge volunteer base (who constantly volunteer their services to NHQ to see them fall on deaf ears) to do some of that work for you.  In the meantime, start looking into things that can actually move CAP forward.  How about looking into what CAP is going to do in the long-term for permanent meeting facilities for units and headquarters?  How about working on developing planned giving from all of our tens of thousands of CAP members and CAP alumni across the nation so we can one day enjoy the benefits of a large funding endowment?   How about working on unifying our missions and taskings?  Developing more and better training?   Clearer manuals, meatier pamphlets, and updated regulations that reflect present day CAP?    Anything that makes more of a difference than spur-of-the-moment decisions about the clothes we wear to work.

Excellent, Mike.  This paragraph should be framed on the wall of every NB member and repeated at every board meeting untill we see some real progress.  Even if this has happened in the past, it is a forgotten practice now.  Maybe someone will take this to heart and.....

They should all recite it before they say the Safety Pledge

[Nick]

Does anyone remember the days of the NHQ uniform committee?  What happened to that?  It should be a standard response -- any uniform item presented at an NB/NEC meeting should be immediately referred to committee for them to bring back a conclusive study and recommendation at the next meeting.

With the exception of changes due to safety reasons, there is no reason we must implement an immediate uniform change.

[Майор Хаткевич]

You've been around the organization for a little while, is this the first uniform change that ever impacted you?  Do you think it will be the last?

There is a difference in replacing insignia with different insignia that costs $3.50 AND dumping upwards of $400.00 two weeks ago on a uniform that can only be worn for a short time.

BTW.....Vanguard is NOT taking back any CSU items.  Called this morning.

Call your credit card and refuse the package.

[RogueLeader]

I think its too late, and he already has it.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I assumed that, but if the order was two weeks ago, that certainly was a fast delivery.

That said, I would expect NHQ to address this issue. If this information (about the potential canning of a uniform) been posted/sent out to the membership BEFORE the meeting, a number of people wouldn't be out half a grand here or there.

I'd give them a call and ask them to credit the $400 on your membership dues - only way I see them ever "reimbursing" this type of action.