How "military" should seniors be?

[Hawk200]

Unless you are considering marching in a parade, having seniors doing drill is probably a bit too much.  Standing formation, ok. 

I agree, unless they are training a Drill Team there is no practical reason for seniors to drill or know how.

I think they ought to be familiar with it, but not necessarily perform drill and ceremonies. Wouldn't hurt for a senior to be able to knowledgeably speak to a cadet about it. Cadets ask seniors things, it's a given in our organization.

However, I would expect them to be able to stand at attention for 10 minutes for a formation and be able to properly execute a salute. The vast majority of seniors I have interacted with could not, or would not do either one. It just irks me, because its not that difficult, spend an hour or two getting the salute down, and standing at attention, for crying out loud, all you have to do is stand still and not look around. To me that is not too great of an expectation, and it would go a long way toward cadets and the more military oriented seniors having more respect for them.

Agreed. Especially, if the senior opts to wear an Air Force variant uniform. It's a case of walking the walk if you're dressed for it.

[Short Field]

It's a case of walking the walk if you're dressed for it.

Agree.  If you talk the talk......  But I will pass on holding my breath until that happens. 

[JoeTomasone]

It just irks me, because its not that difficult, spend an hour or two getting the salute down, and standing at attention, for crying out loud, all you have to do is stand still and not look around. To me that is not too great of an expectation, and it would go a long way toward cadets and the more military oriented seniors having more respect for them.

AMEN.

The quickest way to make people lose respect for you is to make them think that you believe that you don't have to obey the rules.

[Hawk200]

It's a case of walking the walk if you're dressed for it.

Agree.  If you talk the talk......  But I will pass on holding my breath until that happens. 

Talking the talk can be an issue too.

I can't even remember how many times I've had some yahoo trying to sell me a line of crap when it was obvious that they have never been to a military installation, and the closest thing they had to a serving relative was a grandfather or great uncle that was in during the world wars (who died before they were five).

I think we need an expanded Level I, such as a familiarization course that lasts for numerous meetings, not just one. Some introduction to some CAP and AF history, some familiarization with D&C (nothing extensive, since they won't use it much afterwards), and a good class on proper uniform wear (regardless of which one they choose). A good class on C&C would be ideal, too.

We need to eliminate the ignorance that seems to abound at times.

[lordmonar]

I would not be opposed to requring all officers passing the Wright Brothers test including the drill portion as part of Level II training.

With appropriat waivers for those with handicaps.

[Stonewall]

I would not be opposed to requring all officers passing the Wright Brothers test including the drill portion as part of Level II training.

With appropriat waivers for those with handicaps.

At a local TLC last year, I was called in to teach seniors 2 topics, cadet programs management or promoting (forgot which) and a one hour intro to basic (very basic) D&C, which include stationary movements and customs and courtesies (basically saluting).

JoeTomasone:   For some reason you think I'm against seniors performing military customs and courtesies and having working knowledge of basic D&C movements.  However, the opposite is true.  At both of my squadrons in DCWG, all SENIORS and cadets were in formation at the beginning of each meeting and 90% the seniors were good about the usual C&C stuff.  That said, no one, to include myself, got worked up or even made a spot correction when someone didn't salute a ranking officer, especially out of view from cadets.

While your world may be different, mine is one of reality.  Many members have zero interest in the military aspect of CAP and while I question their membership, I have to respect their goals and interests.  I just hope that they don't hang around the cadet side of the house, which they generally don't (because they have no interest in it).

[Eagle400]

Part of the problem is that fewer and fewer senior members have any prior military experience.  The result of this is that some have a very warped idea of what day to day life in a military unit is like.  If you asked the typical USAF field grade officer when they last drilled you would probably get a blank stare.

Yes, you wear the uniform according to 39-1, salute when appropriate and use titles when called for. However, the Kabuki like atomsphere sometimes found in the cadet program doesn't work in the senior program or the everyday USAF.

These problems would go away rather quickly if CAP's officer professional development was like Air Force PME.  It is time for CAP to start making its professional development challenging and more academic. 

Make no mistake: it's not the result of a lack of prior military service; it is the result of a professional development system that does not challenge the individual and enables those without prior military service to make up their own idea of what day to day military life is like.

So how "military" should seniors be?  Military enough to know the difference between "corporate civilian" and "regulated military", and act accordingly.

But that will only happen in large numbers when CAP professional development makes the distinction between "corporate civilian" and "regulated military."  As it stands now, there is no distinction and the result is thousands of non-prior service seniors who see what is presented (which is mostly of a corporate civilian flavor) and just assume that this training is an accurate representation of life in the day to day military.

You do not need military experience to be a good leader or manager, however...

You would think that an organization that has the distinction of being the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary would at least have professional development training of a more military flavor so folks don't get a warped idea of what military life is like and act on that assumption. 

So my solution to the problem of seniors not being "military" enough is simple - make the professional development more military (and give the folks an accurate representation of what military life is like), and the military mindset will follow.  How military?  As military as Air Force PME. 

For a lot of folks, CAP professional development needs to be a transformation from the "corporate civilian" mindset to the "regulated military" mindset, and not just a run-of-the-mill power point session with some story telling.  That is what it is now, and it needs to change.  Until it does, most senior members who do not have military or cadet experience will continue to assume that CAP professional development is an accurate representation of military life and consider it sufficient.

[JoeTomasone]

JoeTomasone:   For some reason you think I'm against seniors performing military customs and courtesies and having working knowledge of basic D&C movements. 

No, you just seem to be very unconcerned about it; from my thinking that's part of the overall problem.   I'm not saying that every missed salute requires a talking-to, but when it's repeated/chronic, especially when combined with other exhibitions of a lack of military bearing, I do indeed think that corrective actions are warranted.

That being said, I do NOT think that Seniors should be required to know any more drill than is required to fall in, fall out, and stand in formation when required, report-as-ordered,  and properly lead a formation (especially if they are the DCC or such).    But they do NOT need to know about columns, change step, etc.

While your world may be different, mine is one of reality.  Many members have zero interest in the military aspect of CAP and while I question their membership, I have to respect their goals and interests.

You, on the other hand, seem to equate a desire for living up to what you signed up for to be something of a dream world that I'm living in.   Those members knew what they were signing up for -- or the unit they visited/joined wasn't practicing proper C&C either.  When I joined CAP, both as a Cadet AND when I rejoined as a Senior, I knew what was expected of me, and I do my best to live up to it.    How can I, in good conscience, expect any less than I am willing to do myself?  Of course, the corollary is that if you expect less, you are likely to get less, and if you expect nothing, you are more likely to get nothing.

We have the same issue in Comms.    The number of people who don't properly employ prowords is alarming.  Do I stop on everyone's toes on the repeater?  No.  Do I have a discreet, positive "corrective" chat with those I meet in person?  Sure.   And I make sure that *I* am operating as perfectly as possible, because I am trying to set the example.   

[O-Rex]

The key to professionalism is moderation: lean too far to either end of the spectrum, and you become a living, walking joke.

[Stonewall]

Joe, PM inbound.  (Took our stuff offline).