NHQ Uniform Committee

[Hawk200]

Sir
Question of the Day, I attended the Royal Thai Air Force Parachutist school in Thailand and completed training and was awarded my Thai Free Fall Parachutist wings. I have all the documentation including logs and certificates. Can they be worn on the Air Force Style Uniforms?
Officers and Enlisted USAF and ARMY personal who attend are authorized to wear them.

Regards
Capt. Dave

Army personnel are permitted to wear them on Class A, and now Class B uniforms.

As for Air Force, AFI 36-2903 says this: " Foreign badges (aviation, medical insignia, parachutist badges) : only in the conferring country  or while attending official and social functions hosted by the awarding government.  Do not wear foreign aviation badges unless wearing a US aviation badge. "

CAPM 39-1 says: "Foreign Aviation Badge (Awarded in writing by foreign military authority.) : centered 1/2 inch above the pocket or ribbons on left breast.  CAP aviation badges are worn 1/2 inch above other aviation badges."

The question that usually gets thrown in the mix is whether or not para wings are an "aviation" badge. In the past, the Air Force used to consider a para badge as an "aeronautical" rating, and it was mandatory for wear. It's no longer mandatory. Not sure how National looks at it. Then again, not sure if they really know how they look at it either.

[pixelwonk]

Topic split.  See "Uniforms, AFAMS, and Health Insurance, Oh My!" for said posts

Last warning about drift.

[DNall]

DNall:

You omitted from your list of reasons why we wear the AF uniform the principal reason:  Tradition.  We are the only military auxiliary that saw combat in World War II, and as such we are a part of the Air Force heritage. 

I agree that, based on the NHQ message, rank as officers may be counterproductive to the mission.  Unfortunately, that fails to justify a new uniform for this mission when the golf shirt was already in the CAP wardrobe closet.

I agree but above my paygrade. Polo w/ grade &/or wings/etc are similiar to items worn by off-duty mil officers. That might have been considered. Polo w/ just name would have been most appropriate for this program, at very least in the test phase. I think more likely the AF didn't know that option was out there & unneccessarily reinvented the wheel. Just need to get teh word across to them & I think that'd resolve.

[Hawk200]

Something to include on the next revision of the uniform manual: Length of ties.

Something was said last night at our meeting that I wasn't certain about, so I looked it up. CAPM 39-1 does not specify how long a tie should be.

Checked AFI 36-2903. It says: "Tip of tie must cover a portion of the belt buckle but cannot extend below the bottom of belt buckle. "

It seems minor, but it's an example of 39-1 not being entirely clear on some of the little things. With a lot of our members not being military, this is stuff that needs to be spelled out.

[DNall]

It seems minor, but it's an example of 39-1 not being entirely clear on some of the little things. With a lot of our members not being military, this is stuff that needs to be spelled out.

Or rather with our units not having NCOs to conform troops to the expected standard.

I'm of the belief that 39-1 has to go a bit further than the AFMAN to spell out some of those things that aren't written or written clearly as worn in the AF version, but are universally corrected to the custom. It should be written so martians (folks w/ no mil exposure) can read it & do it right from that alone.

[Hawk200]

It seems minor, but it's an example of 39-1 not being entirely clear on some of the little things. With a lot of our members not being military, this is stuff that needs to be spelled out.

Or rather with our units not having NCOs to conform troops to the expected standard.

I'm of the belief that 39-1 has to go a bit further than the AFMAN to spell out some of those things that aren't written or written clearly as worn in the AF version, but are universally corrected to the custom. It should be written so martians (folks w/ no mil exposure) can read it & do it right from that alone.

You can't call it a standard if it's not spelled out. The AFI does spell it out, the CAPM doesn't. You can't expect a standard to be met if noone knows what it is. I know of units that don't have any kind of military member there, and the whole squadron is composed of people with no military background.

A lot of the things that we have in writing in the military are not done so in CAP. That's only one thing that I found, there are probably numerous things that need to be that aren't.

Seems like an easy and smart thing to do is to start with the AFI as the basic outline, then write it for CAP. Just use the format, and crosscheck everything.

[DNall]

right, I agree with you. I'm saying we need to take it one step beyond that in two aspects.

1) user-friendly & spell things out that aren't clear in the AFMAN either (requiring that corrective environment/NCO), and...

2) There's uniform standards in the AF that exceed the AFMAN min requirements. That's customs & gets enforced strictly by that same enviro/NCO. Some of that should be written in as well since we don't have that corrective influence in most cases.

You don't want people showing up looking silly cause they followed the book & didn't understand what was really expected of them.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I don't know if this has been addressed before.  54 pages get a bit confusing, especially as I rapidly approach the Age of Senility.  But...

Wing and other unit patches.  The current wing patch seems to be a throwback to the Army Air Corps.  Many unit-level patches do not meet USAF Heraldry standards.

I suggest:

1.  Elimination of all wing and unit patches.  This is the easiest solution, but may be unpopular.

or

2.  Establish that ALL wing and unit patches meet USAF Heraldry guidance, and USAF guidance for placement on uniforms.  That is, IF the ABU is even going to have wing and unit patches.

This means that all Wing and Group patches would have to be re-designed to be a shield shape and all Squadron patches would have to be round with a scroll at the top and bottom.

[Hawk200]

That is, IF the ABU is even going to have wing and unit patches.

Everything that keeps coming up on this issue says that the ABU most definitely will not have patches.

Then again, the AF BDU went to a leather nameplate, and back to the tapes and patches. Different reasons, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was because it may have been harder to track down people. Lot easier when people got unit ID on their uniform.

[mikeylikey]

^ Whatever the AF does regarding wearing of patches on the ABU's we SHOULD follow!  That is simple right?  That means no American flag, no special activity patches, no ranger tabs, no unit patches.  We can have our ground team, and pilot bling though!

[JohnKachenmeister]

exactly.

[notaNCO forever]

I agree with doing what th AF does with there patches even though I like our squadron patch

[DNall]

Yes, those issues have been addressed. IIRC...

AF heraldry standards would be applied nationwide to new designs, current stocks could be used up then would need to change as neccessary.

BDUs would stay mostly as is, accept to the extent it becomes necessary to set the stage for transition to ABUs (tape colors for instance). Item wear policy on ABUs would be aligned w/ AF. In fact the CAP reg would be authoritatively linked to the AF reg, so that if the AF changed patch policy later, that would automatically apply to CAP w/o need of NB/NEC action.

[jason.pennington]

By now everyone knows that we are back to wearing "Civil Air Patrol" tapes instead of "US Civil Air Patrol".  Although I may be happy with the decision, I think someone (NHQ) should consider reimbursing those of us who had to purchase the new tapes for about 6 months of wear.   I don't know, offer each member a new tape.  And I say "had to" because that was what was offered by Vanguard during that time.

I had regular tapes, but because of the uniform change I could not use them.  Thus, I ended up buying the new ones.  I'm not whinning here, but all of these changes have got to stop for a few years at least.

I see that there are 54 pages here, and maybe this was addressed somewhere before, but when are the recommendations going to be presented to NHQ?  I understand that there is a bona fide committee revewing these inputs, so when is it planned to actually take these recommendations/complaints and move on them?

I ask this, even knowing that the wheels of change turn slow.....

[Eclipse]

By now everyone knows that we are back to wearing "Civil Air Patrol" tapes instead of "US Civil Air Patrol"..

No.  We're not.

No change has been made at this time to the uniforms with regards to the NEC decision to drop "USCAP".

As the iCC's letter of a couple of days ago indicated, USCAP tapes are still completely authorized.  Further, there will most likely be a phase-out on those tapes if they are reverted as well.

The winter board meets in a few weeks to consider the proposals submitted by Lt. Col. White, as well as about 100 other issues regarding uniforms imposed by HWSRN.

I had regular tapes, but because of the uniform change I could not use them.  Thus, I ended up buying the new ones.  I'm not whining here, but all of these changes have got to stop for a few years at least.

The sundown for USCAP tapes was/is 2010, so there was/is no reason not to use existing uniforms and tapes.

Plenty of members hadn't troubled themselves to even think about it yet, and I'd be willing to bet a (not) small (enough) percentage are unaware of the issue at all.

And if you take care changing them, the original tapes remain serviceable.  I just swapped his originals back for a friend who got recently promoted.

[capmaj]

It may already have been mentioned somewhere in here, but how about adding a 'Tall' or 'Long' category to whatever shirt/s National settles on. A lot of members are well over 6'0" and have a difficult time getting polo shirts, aviators, whatever, long enough to stay tucked in and looking neat.

Allowances are already in place for 'extra' size shirts, how about 'extra' length shirts?  Remember, males must tuck in their shirt (polo) unless working a flight line in hot weather.

Just a thought.

[jimmydeanno]

A lot of members are well over 6'0" and have a difficult time getting polo shirts...long enough to stay tucked in and looking neat.

I don't think it is so much the length of the shirt, but the girth.  I'm 6'1" and the 'medium' polo shirt I wear, the bottom edge of the trim for the buttons is right at the bottom of my sternum.  I have more shirt than I know what to do with.  However, I think if I weighed another 100 lbs + it might be a problem.

[jason.pennington]

By now everyone knows that we are back to wearing "Civil Air Patrol" tapes instead of "US Civil Air Patrol"..

No.  We're not.

No change has been made at this time to the uniforms with regards to the NEC decision to drop "USCAP".

As the iCC's letter of a couple of days ago indicated, USCAP tapes are still completely authorized.  Further, there will most likely be a phase-out on those tapes if they are reverted as well.

The winter board meets in a few weeks to consider the proposals submitted by Lt. Col. White, as well as about 100 other issues regarding uniforms imposed by HWSRN.

I had regular tapes, but because of the uniform change I could not use them.  Thus, I ended up buying the new ones.  I'm not whining here, but all of these changes have got to stop for a few years at least.

The sundown for USCAP tapes was/is 2010, so there was/is no reason not to use existing uniforms and tapes.

Plenty of members hadn't troubled themselves to even think about it yet, and I'd be willing to bet a (not) small (enough) percentage are unaware of the issue at all.

And if you take care changing them, the original tapes remain serviceable.  I just swapped his originals back for a friend who got recently promoted.

From what I read from Nov's BOG, (I think it was), Vanguard has been told to stop offering the US CAP tapes.

[Hawk200]

From what I read from Nov's BOG, (I think it was), Vanguard has been told to stop offering the US CAP tapes.

Wouldn't surprise me. I didn't see them the other day when I made an order.

[Eclipse]

It may already have been mentioned somewhere in here, but how about adding a 'Tall' or 'Long' category to whatever shirt/s National settles on. A lot of members are well over 6'0" and have a difficult time getting polo shirts, aviators, whatever, long enough to stay tucked in and looking neat.

Allowances are already in place for 'extra' size shirts, how about 'extra' length shirts?  Remember, males must tuck in their shirt (polo) unless working a flight line in hot weather.

Just a thought.

I ordered my blues shirts (I am over 6-4) custom from AAFES.  There are plenty of commercial vendors that sell tall size aviator shirts.