NHQ Uniform Committee

[DNall]

Far as serive caps for cadet officers. I'd generally defer to Nat CAC for that. However, I'll give you my quick take for why it shouldn't be authorized.

It should be worn only with the service coat, and even then only in very formal situations (military funeral, etc). I know there is no formal restriction or written guidance in either CAP or AF, but that's the standard.

Most CAP members, especially cadets, will never be in a situation like that (that requires headgear anyway).

Also, we still have cadets wearing both the current & older style service coats. That means expensive hats in two dif kinds of fabric. Both of which require an expensive hat device. Cadets, even moreso than adults, are more prone to want all that extra stuff they don't need.

Sorry, but unless CAC makes a strong case for it, or someone convinces me otherwise, I'd restrict service cap wear by cadets to honor guard/color guard/drill team situations. 

[Senior]

T-shirt for BDU.  As I read the phase out dates for the Brown Army T-shirt,
I remember my time in the Army Reserve.  The issue brown t-shirt neck
elastic quickly gaped open, so you had to wear it backward.  Also, when you took off the BDU coat you never had a convenient place for a pen, etc.
My recommendation to make the black Air Force T-shirt mandatory, but
use a civilian brand(Hanes, Dickies) with a pocket.  The advantage to the
member is availability, usefulness.  They last a lot longer also.

[DNall]

You can wear those now. Why would fewer options rather than more be better? And, ABUs will be here in a few years, so BDUs are becoming a non-issue.

[Hawk200]

T-shirt for BDU.  As I read the phase out dates for the Brown Army T-shirt,
I remember my time in the Army Reserve.  The issue brown t-shirt neck
elastic quickly gaped open, so you had to wear it backward.  Also, when you took off the BDU coat you never had a convenient place for a pen, etc.
My recommendation to make the black Air Force T-shirt mandatory, but
use a civilian brand(Hanes, Dickies) with a pocket.  The advantage to the
member is availability, usefulness.  They last a lot longer also.

You can purchase black t-shirts without a pocket pretty inexpensively, and the pocket on a t-shirt isn't all that useful. It tends to sag and stretch out when used.

Also, if you're not wearing a shirt, it's probably pretty unlikely that you would need a pen.

Pocketed t's aren't all that practical, and don't really present a professional appearance when worn with any kind of uniform, military or otherwise.

In 19 years, I've never had a t-shirt collar gap open. Ever. I wonder what people are doing to them that causes it. It's never happened to most of the people I know either.

[Senior]

Not fewer options, everyone wears the same color t-shirt of our parent
organization. 
In the Army, when it is hot and you are working you were
allowed to take off the BDU coat.  Now in my job in the Army,maintenance,
you had to fill out paperwork and you needed a pen.  Hence, a t-shirt with
a pocket would have been handy.  I am sure everyone can think of instances in the field, on a HOT flight line that you weren't in full uniform.
From this board, the ABU won't be authorized for a long time, so we will
be in BDUs for a while.  From this board we all want to dress in the same
uniform so go with the black.
I was talking about the ISSUE brown t-shirt.  The neck elastic sagged all the
time from normal wear.  You could buy(I think) Fruit of the Loom at the PX
but they were expensive.  I wear t-shirts on my job everyday and the Hanes, Fruit of the Loom Work type T-shirt pocket doesn't droop.
Finally, this topic talked about cost to the masses.  If you can go to ChinaMart and buy work quality black t-shirts it makes it cheaper(you don't buy from Vanguard or have to travel to base/fort) and the pocket makes the uniform item more useful.

[afgeo4]

The Army never allowed you to wear a t-shirt with a pocket. The Air Force doesn't either. If you needed a pen, you probably kept one in the pant cargo pocket or in the toolbox, right? Well... that's what you do in CAP too. We wear what USAF wears.

Btw... the argument of not having a place to keep a pen is weak. Keep the pen where you keep your forms. That's why uniforms don't have such places on them aside from BDU tops. Neither the ACU or BDU have pen pockets on pants. Neither are allowed worn with pocket tees.

I was a maintainer in the Air Force for a few years and I can't say that the pen issue was THAT big of a deal for me. I've always found a way to keep one around.

[DNall]

I've never seen anyone buy an expensive issue shirt from a PX. Why would they do that? Every shirt I get in CAP (unit, activites, etc), & most in the Army, is black. I wear those, as does everyone else. I don't see where the problem is, much less the need for a mandate.

Far as ABUs, AF approved CAP going to those while they were still in wear test. It's just a matter of when. That's based on two things: 1) when servicable BDU surplus drops too low to support our cadets; and, 2) when ABU inventory gets high enough that AF needs are not harmed by CAP demand. Anything beyond that is guess work. We do have good information about trends, supplies, manufactures, etc. The best logic at this point is an initial authorize date in the 2009-13 range, possibly sooner but not later then that. BDUs would still be auth a couple years after that initial date, but the further we go from now the harder it is to keep fielding them on dwindling stocks.

ABUs are coming. Regardless of when that is, the consideration on BDUs is to either: 1) simplify & then restrict future changes; or, 2) set the stage for what we want on ABUs.

[ZigZag911]

I still think all seniors should go to the Blue BDUs, or some other color if there is concern about confusing us with law enforcement.

I will readily grant that the cammys (and down the line, ABU), are enticements for cadet recruiting.....so be it, it is unlikely they will be taken by the public for Real AF.

Realistically, much of our day to day work is done in utility uniforms......if the seniors wore something that did not mirror the AF ABU/BDU series so closely, it might lessen some of the tension with our parent service, and end a lot of confusion.

For instance, if all seniors wore BBDU now, there might have been less of an argument for creating a new combination for the VSAF missions.

[RogueLeader]

For instance, if all seniors wore BBDU now, there might have been less of an argument for creating a new combination for the VSAF missions.

Why is that?  The BBDU still has rank on it, which was a point of notice in the VSAF uniform.

[ZigZag911]

Why is that?  The BBDU still has rank on it, which was a point of notice in the VSAF uniform.

True, but it so obviously not an Air Force uniform that it might have been deemed suitable....then again, maybe not.

Edit: Tags -TA

[DNall]

... it is unlikely they will be taken by the public for Real AF....

...it might lessen some of the tension with our parent service, and end a lot of confusion....

I realize there's some confusion on this issue, but that's not what's going on.

CAP represents AF in the public eye, very true. That is true because we are affiliated with them, regardless of what we're wearing. It's more accutely true when in a uniform that looks similiar to theirs - which includes the new corporate-style service dress. CAP does have a responsibility to uphold the AF's image of excellence to the public, and AF does care about that.

However, that has nothing to do with why our uniforms are made distinctive. That is not done for PUBLIC recognition. That is done for MILITARY recognition. It is essential for legal & real practical reasons that military personnel that may not be familiar with CAP understand that we are not military officers with legal authority over their personnel.

We wear AF-style uniforms for a couple primary reasons. First, so surplus supplies & economies of scale from mass manufacture can keep membership costs low. And second, to reinforce solidarity in both directions for them as our parent/patron service. The AF stated CAP will transition to ABUs, that CAP will always wear what the AF wears, but the AF takes priority.

Rank is not on VSAF shirts cause that is commonly done by mil personnel & would cause mil & associated personnel to confuse our folks w/ mil officer when operating in or around a mil base.

[mikeylikey]

Rank is not on VSAF shirts cause that is commonly done by mil personnel & would cause mil & associated personnel to confuse our folks w/ mil officer when operating in or around a mil base.

Rank is not on the shirt because we will be filling in for civilians who have no rank, or AGR personell who wear civvies to the office on a daily basis.  Once NHQ comes down and says what specific jobs CAP'ers will perform, then it will be clear "no rank needed"!

[DNall]

^ I'm not doubting that's the case as well.

AGR/ADSW is active duty. I thought miltech & similiar though had to be in uniform during the week while on civil service status. That's how it is here. I thought that was regs. And  civilians have GS rank, that is meaningful.

I think you're right though that we're, at least initially, going to be filling what would otherwise be (and still are) volunteer positions. CAP is just being used as a vehicle for the insurance/legal coverage, and as a potential volunteer pool. I think it'll grow beyond that after it gets a foot in the door though. We've identified some real good potential opportunties w/ good response. There's a couple old thread from the Spring about some of those.

[JohnKachenmeister]

DNall:

You omitted from your list of reasons why we wear the AF uniform the principal reason:  Tradition.  We are the only military auxiliary that saw combat in World War II, and as such we are a part of the Air Force heritage. 

I agree that, based on the NHQ message, rank as officers may be counterproductive to the mission.  Unfortunately, that fails to justify a new uniform for this mission when the golf shirt was already in the CAP wardrobe closet.

[afgeo4]

I still think all seniors should go to the Blue BDUs, or some other color if there is concern about confusing us with law enforcement.

I will readily grant that the cammys (and down the line, ABU), are enticements for cadet recruiting.....so be it, it is unlikely they will be taken by the public for Real AF.

Realistically, much of our day to day work is done in utility uniforms......if the seniors wore something that did not mirror the AF ABU/BDU series so closely, it might lessen some of the tension with our parent service, and end a lot of confusion.

For instance, if all seniors wore BBDU now, there might have been less of an argument for creating a new combination for the VSAF missions.

I'd be more worried that CAP members in BBDUs will be confused for USCG officers. The uniforms look almost identical at short distances.

[ZigZag911]

Good point about CG officers, I had not considered that.

[MIKE]

I dunno, I think there are some pretty obvious differences between both ODU 1.0 and 2.0 when compared to the Field Uniform.

[brasda91]

In 19 years, I've never had a t-shirt collar gap open. Ever.

So that means it shouldn't happen?  After a few months wearing the brown t-shirt in the Army, I had to reverse my shirts also.  It wasn't because I was doing someting to them, they just wore out.

[Hawk200]

In 19 years, I've never had a t-shirt collar gap open. Ever.

So that means it shouldn't happen?  After a few months wearing the brown t-shirt in the Army, I had to reverse my shirts also.  It wasn't because I was doing someting to them, they just wore out.

Guess everybody I knew always got lucky that they got only the best. I've never seen a stretched out T.

[piperl4]

Sir
Question of the Day, I attended the Royal Thai Air Force Parachutist school in Thailand and completed training and was awarded my Thai Free Fall Parachutist wings. I have all the documentation including logs and certificates. Can they be worn on the Air Force Style Uniforms?
Officers and Enlisted USAF and ARMY personal who attend are authorized to wear them.

Regards
Capt. Dave