NHQ Uniform Committee

[BigMojo]

Woodland is easier and cheaper to get than blue, especially for Cadets. We wear orange hats and vests for visibility.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Just a point of clarification on why I posted that utility uniform... Not everyone in this organization flies, or even wants to fly, or look like they fly. I'm one of them (call me crazy, many already do) I have nothing but respect for our mission aircrews, I just prefer ground ops.

The utility uniform needs to remain an option. It is a low cost option that allows for and easy and quick way to get into uniform for a UDF mission. I'm my specific area, if we have coordinates, we can get a ground team together, on site, and within 100yards of an EPIRB or ELT before a flight crew has finished getting ready and pre-flighted. There isn't always a place to change pants that's publically acceptable, and being able to put a t-shirt on slide a coverall over work slacks makes a great option, and financially feasible, for under $40 I can have that neatly folded in my truck at all times, which for the same money, I can only buy a BDU blouse. In the end, it puts people on-scene faster, which leads to quicker de-activations, which makes everyone happy.

In the end, I felt I could improve upon an existing option, make it distinctive, give it a purpose, and keep it cheap. (I can get all needed patches/tapes for less than the cost of 1 leather name tag). The reason behind going with tapes over a tag was for readability at a distance for general public, because you can't read a leather tag from more than 2ft away. Orient them on the uniform how you want, I just followed pocket lines to go with the cut. For clarification, I am not proposing this for anything Flight Operation Oriented, just ground work, in an urban environment. I may not want to look like a pilot, conversely, do pilots want us lowly ground pounders looking like them?

BTW...the BBDU needs to go away. As the BDU is being phased out by the USAF, make the woodland BDU that standard for both those that meet weight and grooming, and the fuzzy/fluffy's.

If you want a low-cost coverall for low-stress ELT missions, I suggest the flight suit in cotton, which is available in both sage green and blue.    I had one that I would wear when flying gliders.  It is way cooler (temperature-wise, it is just as cool social-wise) and in an environment where fire protection is not an issue it works fine.  (Gliders may crash, but they don't burn!)

[jason.pennington]

I am not sure if anyone has posted this or not.  CAWG has a UDF uniform consisting of an orange (SAR) button down shirt and the CAP blue BDU trousers.  On the shirt members wear only the CAP and their nametapes.  Oh, and the CAWG patch.  I am not sure of the purpose, except maybe to blend in with the other SAR organizations in the state.  This might be an option to consider for ground teams.  I know it is an extra uniform, but, it might serve a purpose nation-wide.

[JayT]

I am not sure if anyone has posted this or not.  CAWG has a UDF uniform consisting of an orange (SAR) button down shirt and the CAP blue BDU trousers.  On the shirt members wear only the CAP and their nametapes.  Oh, and the CAWG patch.  I am not sure of the purpose, except maybe to blend in with the other SAR organizations in the state.  This might be an option to consider for ground teams.  I know it is an extra uniform, but, it might serve a purpose nation-wide.

That uniform has be discussed often.

The advantage of the jump suit is that it's something you can have rolled in a ball in the back of your car with a pair of boots and a tee shirt, and you can just throw it on over street clothes basically.

The Blue BDUs look as crappy as BDU's if they're just rolled in a ball, and you need to have authorized boots, head gear, and outer garments. That California uniform isn't authorized.

I keep a jump suit in my car just for that purpose. Plus, I get lonely without all of the pockets.

[DogCollar]

I am not sure if anyone has posted this or not.  CAWG has a UDF uniform consisting of an orange (SAR) button down shirt and the CAP blue BDU trousers.  On the shirt members wear only the CAP and their nametapes.  Oh, and the CAWG patch.  I am not sure of the purpose, except maybe to blend in with the other SAR organizations in the state.  This might be an option to consider for ground teams.  I know it is an extra uniform, but, it might serve a purpose nation-wide.

That uniform has be discussed often.

The advantage of the jump suit is that it's something you can have rolled in a ball in the back of your car with a pair of boots and a tee shirt, and you can just throw it on over street clothes basically.

The Blue BDUs look as crappy as BDU's if they're just rolled in a ball, and you need to have authorized boots, head gear, and outer garments. That California uniform isn't authorized.

I keep a jump suit in my car just for that purpose. Plus, I get lonely without all of the pockets.

Another option...that might even be easier, and lower cost, is a reflective jacker and/or vest with agency identifying letters.  They could easily stay in a car trunk until needed.  Just a thought.

[PhoenixRisen]

That California uniform isn't authorized.

Says who?

See section 1-5.c of the California suppliment to the 39-1 http://cawg.cap.gov/files/manuals/cawgm39-1.pdfhere.

Region commanders must approve items authorized by wing commanders in coordination with
National Headquarters.

If it's in the CAWG 39-1 suppliment, I would assume it's authorized.

[DNall]

The Ca thing is state mandated. CAP has no choice other than not to participate. And, it comes with insurance concerns that are counter-balanced by state coverage.

Fast response to a non-emergency ELT on an airport ramp is not what CAP is about. And, that mission is going mostly away. You can argue how much work there will be to do during the transtion, but longer term we're moving in a different direction. What we do now (and frankly this is the case with ELTs as well if your ICs will do the alerts right) is longer lead time warning orders to be on alert for deployment in hours, and to more serious & diverse incidents. We don't need a jumpsuit to wad up in the trunk so we can look official & be covered by insurance when we respond direct to the ramp. What we need is to be identified with the team we're playing for & hold up to the work over the long haul.

Now, if I can try to bring some focus back to this discussion... We are one team, that's the Total Air Force Team. We exist to perform missions for America either in support of or on behalf of that team (regardless of who is paying the bills at the moment). That is the team we will have solidarity & representation of. So...

1. There WILL be one AF-style uniform for flight (green flt suit), utility (BDU/ABU), and service dress. There WILL be one equivalent alternative for each (blue flt suit/BBDU/corp-style serv dress). The only exceptions are the golf shirt with khakis, and I believe the blazer combo, though my vote is to get rid of that & open up the corp-style serv dress, but I have mixed feelings about that too.

2. The primary effort is to standardize between & across that matrix for cost & uniformity in solidarity with the team we play for.

3. The effort will also try to present this material in a clear & concise user friendly & hopefully error free publication.

4. And, it will attempt to modify the system of adopting changes, to maintain the solidarity & simplicity, and to insure wear test & long lead time with member & AF input - ie not the crazy world we've been living in recently.

[sardak]

The Ca thing is state mandated. CAP has no choice other than not to participate. And, it comes with insurance concerns that are counter-balanced by state coverage.

Sorry, it's not state mandated and has nothing to do with insurance coverage.  The orange shirt is authorized for reasons discussed on other threads.  The state has never mandated a ground team uniform for CAP or anyone else.  There are plenty of recognized SAR teams in CA that don't wear orange.

The orange shirt uniform is optional even under the CAWG policy, and one can see all sorts of uniform combos on CAP ground teams. 

Mike

[LtCol White]

Back on topic please

[SAR-EMT1]

Negative to ever taking " US " off our collars

Negative to a GT coverall or Orange shirt or ANYTHING except the BDU-BBDU

[mikeylikey]

^ Agreed!  Doubly so!!

[airdale]

Back on topic please

Newbie here.  I have been looking around this forum and especially this thread and am somewhat amazed by the intensity of feelings about what are, to me, little metal doodads and imitation soldier suits.  Don't flame me here; I understand that a lot of people are fond of this stuff.  My point is simply that not everyone in CAP is into the uniform thing.  On topic: Hopefully the committee will remember this.

I have been asked to do this paying special attention to the "cost to the member" concerns.

Easy -- minimize the amount of special-purpose clothing required.  If you don't do that, you are just putting lipstick on the pig.

I see no reason that a new member shouldn't be able to buy something simple like the golf shirt "uniform" and have that be acceptable for any CAP activity.  For ground teams there may be a necessity for a long-sleeved top plus jeans "uniform" to provide some brush protection. (But, jeez, not camo!  The last thing you want is for ground teams to be invisible.  Camo is not just silly, it reduces safety.)

Beyond the minimum, define as many military-style uniform options and flight suit options as are needed to satisfy the traditionalists.  Then you're done.

All opinions guaranteed worth price paid.  Flame away!

[PhoenixRisen]

Back on topic please

I see no reason that a new member shouldn't be able to buy something simple like the golf shirt "uniform" and have that be acceptable for any CAP activity.  For ground teams there may be a necessity for a long-sleeved top plus jeans "uniform" to provide some brush protection. (But, jeez, not camo!  The last thing you want is for ground teams to be invisible.  Camo is not just silly, it reduces safety.)

That just screams "Boy Scouts" to me.  Not sure if I'm the only one, but I'm feeling that people wouldn't take us seriously if you came up wearing a "uniform" shirt and a pair of jeans/tennis shoes, and said "I'm with the United States Air Force Auxiliary".

As for the camo, you're not making yourself invisible...  I've never heard of a ground team operation that DIDN'T require their members to wear some type of reflective vest or orange hat / shirt (ala Hawk Mountain).

We wear the Battle Dress Uniform because we're doing work for the US Air Force, and that's [technically] their uniform...

YMMV.

*steps away and fades back into the crowd*

[Slim]

"Civil Air Patrol" and Name Tape set on diagonals over diagonal pockets; they just look dumb, leather aircrew patch is a more professional looking alternative.

That's not anything currently being considered.  Blue BDUs and Blue Flightsuits is what we are proposing be kept as is.  I will propose that the Blue Utility Uniform be phased out.

Want to have a little impact on my wallet?  Keep the current blue bag as an aircrew uniform.

That is, for those places which don't require Nomex.

[DrJbdm]

little metal doodads and imitation soldier suits.  Don't flame me here; I understand that a lot of people are fond of this stuff.  My point is simply that not everyone in CAP is into the uniform thing.

   When you joined, you where told that this is the United States Air Force Aux right? and that we are under the U.S. Air Force? and as such we wear Air Force Uniforms (modified for CAP) and that we perform Air Force Missions?  or did they lead you in to believing we are a civic organization that isn't military in any fashion? Perhaps the boy scouts would take you as a scout leader or maybe one of these SAR groups would take you.  Perhaps a Military organization isn't the right fit for you.

   As for BDUs and ABUs, those are worn because CAP is a military organization. SAR isn't the biggest thing we do it's not our reason for being, it's only one small part.  Let me ask this another way:  If the National Guard was doing SAR work would you expect them to not wear military uniforms? because you thought it was silly or unsafe? No, you would expect them to be in uniform. We are the same way, in many ways we are very close to the National Guard.

   If you are simply not into the military aspect of things then fine, become a patron member or something. But accepting a regular membership carried with it the implied acceptance of being in a military organization an following the rules and regulations of both CAP and in some cases the USAF.

[CadetProgramGuy]

After 49 pages of not reading anymore, I ask the following:

If you had to go to National Boards right now, what are you asking for uniform changes?

[mikeylikey]

After 49 pages of not reading anymore, I ask the following:

If you had to go to National Boards right now, what are you asking for uniform changes?

Good Question!

[SStradley]

Lt. Col. White,

How does the VSAF uniform fit into or with the work you and the committee are doing?

[DNall]

I think that's been addressed, in that we'd be going to khakis with a single polo combo, and the prefernce would be to use that for VSAF rather than adding yet another shirt. Ultimately though, we do what the AF tells us to. If they want to require us to purchase yet another specialty clothing item so we can volunteer in support of their family support programs or whatever, then we'll adopt that into our regs, but it may seriously impeede or cause the failure of such an effort. Tha'd be very unfortunate.

[SStradley]

I think that's been addressed, in that we'd be going to khakis with a single polo combo, and the prefernce would be to use that for VSAF rather than adding yet another shirt. Ultimately though, we do what the AF tells us to. If they want to require us to purchase yet another specialty clothing item so we can volunteer in support of their family support programs or whatever, then we'll adopt that into our regs, but it may seriously impeede or cause the failure of such an effort. Tha'd be very unfortunate.

I know that the committee is going to recommend khakis.  However, I was asking about the button shirt.  If the A/F is requiring this shirt, then I think the committee should suggest the phase out the polo (of which I have 2) in favor of the VSAF button shirt.