NHQ Uniform Committee

[DNall]

If you look at Vanguard's website, the grey CAP epaulets are actually cheaper than the blue USAF ones they sell!

So much for a discount.

That's actually based on the quality of the items, which a lot of people have complained about in the past. The blue CAP slides being discussed would be avail at roughly the same price as the AF versions, which is the higher quality, and would also include the option of the smaller female versions which we don't make in gray because of cost.

What we're trying to do here is standardize as many things as possible between our own varrious uniform combinations, as well as with the overall AF expectations for their uniform. Part of that effort is to do away with so many specialty items when an off the shelf alternative actually works better. It makes even more sense when you talk about nametags.

[BillB]

Didn't I see in 39-1 or Knowledgebase that boots are authorized with blues, but NOT bloused?

[JayT]

Didn't I see in 39-1 or Knowledgebase that boots are authorized with blues, but NOT bloused?

It's in 39-1.

[jimmydeanno]

Black, with or without safety toe; must have a plain rounded toe or rounded capped toe with or without perforated seam; zipper or elastic inserts are optional; no designs. Highly polished, high gloss, or patent leather.

May be worn with: New Service Coat, Old Service Coat, Long Sleeve Blue Shirt, Short Sleeve Blue Shirt.

May not be worn with: Mess Dress, Semi-formal.

[RogueLeader]

Will we still be authorized to wear Combat boots in Blues?  According to numerous AD folks, the only people that can wear CB with Class A's are Airborne.

That only applies to Army personnel.  Air Force personnel have been authorized to wear combat boots with all blues combinations for a long while. I wear a set of plain black Ropers with my blues. They're more comfortable than combat boots.

Now I doubt the moldy greens will be authorized. That would just look tacky.

Do you have a cite for the AFMAN regarding boots?

[jimmydeanno]

Combat Boots, Black/Jungle: With or without safety toe; must have a plain rounded toe or rounded capped toe with or without perforated seam; zipper or elastic inserts are optional; no designs. High gloss or patent finish optional.

May be worn with: Service Dress, Long Sleeve, Short Sleeve
May not be worn with: Mess Dress, Formal Dress, Semi-Formal

Dress Boots, Black: With rounded plain or rounded capped toe; zipper or elastic inserts optional; no design; sole will not exceed 1/2 inch in thickness and shoe heels will not exceed 1 inch in height
(measured from the inside front of the heel). High gloss or patent finish optional.

May be worn with: Service Dress, Long Sleeve, Short Sleeve
May not be worn with: Mess Dress, Formal Dress, Semi-Formal

[LtCol White]

Combat Boots, Black/Jungle: With or without safety toe; must have a plain rounded toe or rounded capped toe with or without perforated seam; zipper or elastic inserts are optional; no designs. High gloss or patent finish optional.

May be worn with: Service Dress, Long Sleeve, Short Sleeve
May not be worn with: Mess Dress, Formal Dress, Semi-Formal

Dress Boots, Black: With rounded plain or rounded capped toe; zipper or elastic inserts optional; no design; sole will not exceed 1/2 inch in thickness and shoe heels will not exceed 1 inch in height
(measured from the inside front of the heel). High gloss or patent finish optional.

May be worn with: Service Dress, Long Sleeve, Short Sleeve
May not be worn with: Mess Dress, Formal Dress, Semi-Formal

Added note that these boots have to be well polished and in good condition. You can't just wipe off black field boots and wear them with scars all over them.

[RogueLeader]

Roger, and thanks.

[Dragoon]

If you look at Vanguard's website, the grey CAP epaulets are actually cheaper than the blue USAF ones they sell!

So much for a discount.

That's actually based on the quality of the items, which a lot of people have complained about in the past. The blue CAP slides being discussed would be avail at roughly the same price as the AF versions, which is the higher quality, and would also include the option of the smaller female versions which we don't make in gray because of cost.

What we're trying to do here is standardize as many things as possible between our own varrious uniform combinations, as well as with the overall AF expectations for their uniform. Part of that effort is to do away with so many specialty items when an off the shelf alternative actually works better. It makes even more sense when you talk about nametags.

So we want to RAISE the price of the epaulets as part of our cost cutting measures?  Sheesh.

I've never had a problem with the quality of the grey epaulets.  They are equal to the black ones I wear every day.

[DNall]

So we want to RAISE the price of the epaulets as part of our cost cutting measures?  Sheesh.

I've never had a problem with the quality of the grey epaulets.  They are equal to the black ones I wear every day.

They're not actually, but that's not the point.

Right now people get metal grade, blue slides, and 3 sets of grey slides. That runs a bit over $35.

With standardization, you use the same items on all combinations, that works out to roughly $25.

Likewise, members currently buy 4 dif nametags at about $23 (grey 3-line, blue 2-line, silver 2-line, silver 1-line). Where we could instead go to widely avail off the shelf AF versions just like AFJROTC/AFROTC/etc use. That reduces it to 2 nametags (one line blue & one line silver) running about $10. That issue isn't even really about the potential savings nearly as much as it is about ease of rapid access to items on the local level.

If you want to argue that we should standardize to grey, that's fine. I respect that position, and it is the second choice - and frankly the more likely to be approved. However, I personally believe the blue versions look much more natural & in place to the eyes of AF viewers.

CAP had blue slides & blue nametags on the AF uniform for most of our history. It was removed & replaced with maroon when CAP got too out of line & the AF felt it important to distinguish that we were not them (changed to grey after some serious begging). We've had our problems, including recently. I think the AF has learned from this period that it's easier to control CAP if you keep them close rather than hold them at a distance. We now in the era of the total force. We have CAP-USAF & significant powers within the AF pushing the idea of CAP being more integrated within the total force concept & utilized (like we do in theory with chaplains) to help fulfill the larger total-AF mission. At the same time, we're in a period of major transition with the uniforms, both going to ABUs & eventually the new service coat. Given these conditions, I believe it's appropriate to better align & standardize ourselves with our parent organization & the standards THEY set for THEIR uniform.

As I said, you're welcome to your alternate opinion, and I do sincerely respect that, but I think we have an opportunity here to do a bit more than just knock a couple bucks off the uniform costs to new members. If we can do both things at once, I think it's appropriate to put that proposal forward.

[ddelaney103]

I think moving to blue epaulets for the Service Dress jacket is a bad idea.

Frankly, I think people are going to look at us and say, "You know, those things go on the shirt and not the jacket."  That's if they say anything at all: they may just shake their heads at the way we wear our uniform.

With the gray slides there's less of a chance of that as they can understand it's an additional difference b/w CAP and USAF uniforms.

[Hawk200]

I think moving to blue epaulets for the Service Dress jacket is a bad idea.

Frankly, I think people are going to look at us and say, "You know, those things go on the shirt and not the jacket."  That's if they say anything at all: they may just shake their heads at the way we wear our uniform.

With the gray slides there's less of a chance of that as they can understand it's an additional difference b/w CAP and USAF uniforms.

Hmmm, good point.

Here's an idea. How about an actual shoulder board for seniors?

It may sound wierd, but there used to a formal dress uniform in the Air Force that was basically a service dress jacket, but used  Mess Dress shoulder boards. Instead of an epaulet, it had a set of loops like the mess dress jacket that a strap slipped through on the underside of the boards.

Maybe a similar design for seniors in an appropriate color, with rank insignia pinned on. Once you have the boards, there wouldn't be any reason to buy anything other than insignia. It would probably have to be fairly low profile, so as not to be too obvious.

The loops wouldn't be too difficult to do either. Just sew them on sturdy so that they don't come off. Not like you'd actually see them, they'd be under the board anyway.

Standardize this same board for both SDU, and CSU. Then we're all set. A distinctive nametag and a set of shoulder boards would definitely set us apart.

I may regret asking, but: Thoughts?

[DrJbdm]

The shoulder board idea may not be too bad, I think you could design a shoulder board that could utilize the epaulets so as to keep from having to have loops sewn in place. Aren't cadet shoulder boards designed that way?

for the record, I think the grey slides look horrible on the jacket, forget trying to make an additional distinction, AF members still look at us and shake their heads  saying we must have no clue on fashion. I am sure not a single one of them goes, "wow, what a neat idea for distinction!" the CAP printed on the blue slides provides plenty of distinction, no need to add a bunch more. the object with distinction is not to tell the difference between AF and CAP officers from a mile away in a dense fog, it needs to be a subtle yet understandable distinction.

[arajca]

Hmmm, good point.

Here's an idea. How about an actual shoulder board for seniors?

It may sound wierd, but there used to a formal dress uniform in the Air Force that was basically a service dress jacket, but used  Mess Dress shoulder boards. Instead of an epaulet, it had a set of loops like the mess dress jacket that a strap slipped through on the underside of the boards.

Maybe a similar design for seniors in an appropriate color, with rank insignia pinned on. Once you have the boards, there wouldn't be any reason to buy anything other than insignia. It would probably have to be fairly low profile, so as not to be too obvious.

The loops wouldn't be too difficult to do either. Just sew them on sturdy so that they don't come off. Not like you'd actually see them, they'd be under the board anyway.

Standardize this same board for both SDU, and CSU. Then we're all set. A distinctive nametag and a set of shoulder boards would definitely set us apart.

I may regret asking, but: Thoughts?

During a period of boredom a year ago, I came up with this idea...

Grade isignia would be standard metal pin on - just change the pins when you get promoted.

[DNall]

I think moving to blue epaulets for the Service Dress jacket is a bad idea.

Frankly, I think people are going to look at us and say, "You know, those things go on the shirt and not the jacket."  That's if they say anything at all: they may just shake their heads at the way we wear our uniform.

With the gray slides there's less of a chance of that as they can understand it's an additional difference b/w CAP and USAF uniforms.[/quote]
I know where you're coming from, but I see it a little differently.

Respectfully, we're not going to shoulder boards. It's expensive & would get a simliar, "those belong on mess dress," or, "this ain't the Navy" reaction. It's not practical & it moves still further away from what they AF viewer is expecting to see.

blue vs gray...
The gray is high contrast & I think stands out to the point of drawing excessive attention to the item. That causes them to question everything about the uniform right form the start.

I'd rather have something that better blends in, both literally to the coat as well as to their expectations of what they normally see, but while still clearly labeling it as different. I've talked in the past about black - and yes I know we're not the Army either, it's just about lower contrast. There's a whole thread about that floating around somewhere with graphics & all. It was really a compromise to try to bring people together, and it got some decent support at the time.

I'd also note that we're really trying to cut down the number of nametags. Four versions not counting cadets is flat out of control. The economies of scale (or lack thereof) on something like that for our size organizaiton is just nuts.

We're talking about going to one standard blue nametag for both the white & blue shirts (and one standard silver for both service coats). That may be the normal 1-line AF version if they'll go for it (at least for cadets), or it may be the two-line version currently used on the white shirt if they don't. We went to gray nametags when we went to the gray epaulets, I'll leave it at that.

Look - we're going to have to do something here to come together. We just can't continue using so many specialty items or such a variety of dif items. We need to use off the shelf solutions (either directly or adapted for our use) as much as possible. That means we have to compromise and come together on some things. You don't have to agree with me on this point or any other, but I really think it deserves some strong consideration.

In the end, I think the AF is going to like standardization, but will say to use the gray. And, that's okay, but blue should be on the table first, and I think that's where the proposal is headed.

[Dragoon]

If you want to argue that we should standardize to grey, that's fine. I respect that position, and it is the second choice - and frankly the more likely to be approved. However, I personally believe the blue versions look much more natural & in place to the eyes of AF viewers. 

Yup, that's exactly what I'm arguing.  I've got no reel beef with blue, except that to a USAF guy, putting blue sliders on the service dress coat will look very odd.  As in "Hey buddy, ya know you put your shirt rank on your jacket?"

With grey, no confusion.  It's obviously not USAF, so there are no comparisions.  And on a stylistic note, if we have to put sliders on a coat, the contrasting grey looks better to me than the blue, which won't always match exactly, depending on the fade of the sliders and the coat.  I recall back in my ROTC days when we tried putting green epaulet sliders on a green coat - it never quite looked right.  The contrasting black ones looked much better.

Also, different colored epaulets (albeit red) are kind of the traditional way to denote CAP officers.  Red would look silly with blue, but grey is not bad.

[JayT]

I think moving to blue epaulets for the Service Dress jacket is a bad idea.

Frankly, I think people are going to look at us and say, "You know, those things go on the shirt and not the jacket."  That's if they say anything at all: they may just shake their heads at the way we wear our uniform.

With the gray slides there's less of a chance of that as they can understand it's an additional difference b/w CAP and USAF uniforms.

Hmmm, good point.

Here's an idea. How about an actual shoulder board for seniors?

It may sound wierd, but there used to a formal dress uniform in the Air Force that was basically a service dress jacket, but used  Mess Dress shoulder boards. Instead of an epaulet, it had a set of loops like the mess dress jacket that a strap slipped through on the underside of the boards.

Maybe a similar design for seniors in an appropriate color, with rank insignia pinned on. Once you have the boards, there wouldn't be any reason to buy anything other than insignia. It would probably have to be fairly low profile, so as not to be too obvious.

The loops wouldn't be too difficult to do either. Just sew them on sturdy so that they don't come off. Not like you'd actually see them, they'd be under the board anyway.

Standardize this same board for both SDU, and CSU. Then we're all set. A distinctive nametag and a set of shoulder boards would definitely set us apart.

I may regret asking, but: Thoughts?

Wouldn't that cost more? I know my old Cadet shoulderboards costs about $30 plus insignia.

Further more, how would regular AF guys react? (Not that it actually matters in the least bit......)

[RiverAux]

Keep in mind that whenever these "the AF people will think we don't know what we're doing arguments" are presented that most CAP people will probably never come in contact with AF personnel while wearing thier Service Dress uniforms other than those that are specificially invited to CAP events. 

[DrJbdm]

maybe shoulder boards isn't such a hot idea after all. some good points where raised.

  I don't know what will happen with the idea of going to blue sliders but I'm guessing it's all in the preparation and the presentation. as I learned in the Police Academy, it all comes down to how you articulate something.

   IF the AF was to come back and say no to blue, despite our best efforts then the next compromise idea might be to ask for black. we just need to get rid of the grey. I know some of you like the grey, but it just doesn't look great. Besides grey would look horrible on the CSU. if we can't have blue or black then I think we should stay how we are; grey on AF & blue on CSU.

[JC004]

Shoulder boards is one thing I miss least about being a cadet.  The things might be alright if they put a hook & loop bottom similar to the SM epaulet sleeves with Velcro.