NHQ Uniform Committee

[afgeo4]

Lt. Col. White,

    Has the board considered a phase in date for when we will be allowed to start transitioning into the ABU?

On the ABU we are going to ask for initial authorization to begin June 1 2008 with a mandatory phase date of 2011 to be consistant with USAF. This is something that USAF has total control over so we just have to wait and see what they think on this one. They may tell us we have to wait until June 09. It just depends on their logistics system and when they feel it can handle the supply.

Thank you. Would you also please ask for green boots to be authorized to wear with BDU until transition is finished? I can buy those at the (insert AFB name here) MCSS while I cannot buy the black ones as replacement for my old, worn out ones. Plus... think of the money new members will save since most of our boots that are worn for meetings last 5 years or more!

[afgeo4]

Lt Col White,
Wow.  I didn't think going for blue shoulder marks on the AF style uniform was even a viable option.  If you can make that stick, I'd be all for it.  And the blue marks look much better on the service coats than I ever thought they might.  Good deal all around.

Will add my voice to the chorus regarding nameplates.  Obviously sliver would be the best but would not have a problem changing to blue if it meant getting the blue shoulder marks back.

Since we're looking at a potentially short time before we can start wearing ABUs, am I to assume that insignia on current Woodland BDUs would remain unchanged until their phase-out?  I'd suggest that if it hasn't already been considered.  No sense in making a change on a uniform that will be heading in to phase-out.

On the ABUs I'm going to have to be the lone holdout for blue tapes.  I still think one color that will work on both ABUs and corporate BBDUs, and one color rank insignia that will work on both as well as both the green and blue flight suits is the way we should be going.

Thanks for your efforts!

White letters on navy blue background works for all of the above. Does it work for you?

[AlphaSigOU]

Phil:

Try the sage green flight jacket with the orange liner.  We are authorized that jacket with flight gear, and that is far warmer than the lightweight blue.

Or the green nomex CWU-45/P (winter weight) or CWU-36/P (summer weight) jacket. Nylon knockoffs of these style jackets abound for a lot cheaper than the $200+ cost of nomex (average about $75-$100). However, you can't wear the green flight jacket with blues.

[NEBoom]

Lt Col White,
Wow.  I didn't think going for blue shoulder marks on the AF style uniform was even a viable option.  If you can make that stick, I'd be all for it.  And the blue marks look much better on the service coats than I ever thought they might.  Good deal all around.

Will add my voice to the chorus regarding nameplates.  Obviously sliver would be the best but would not have a problem changing to blue if it meant getting the blue shoulder marks back.

Since we're looking at a potentially short time before we can start wearing ABUs, am I to assume that insignia on current Woodland BDUs would remain unchanged until their phase-out?  I'd suggest that if it hasn't already been considered.  No sense in making a change on a uniform that will be heading in to phase-out.

On the ABUs I'm going to have to be the lone holdout for blue tapes.  I still think one color that will work on both ABUs and corporate BBDUs, and one color rank insignia that will work on both as well as both the green and blue flight suits is the way we should be going.

Thanks for your efforts!

White letters on navy blue background works for all of the above. Does it work for you?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting.

[LtCol White]

Lt Col White,
Wow.  I didn't think going for blue shoulder marks on the AF style uniform was even a viable option.  If you can make that stick, I'd be all for it.  And the blue marks look much better on the service coats than I ever thought they might.  Good deal all around.

Will add my voice to the chorus regarding nameplates.  Obviously sliver would be the best but would not have a problem changing to blue if it meant getting the blue shoulder marks back.

Since we're looking at a potentially short time before we can start wearing ABUs, am I to assume that insignia on current Woodland BDUs would remain unchanged until their phase-out?  I'd suggest that if it hasn't already been considered.  No sense in making a change on a uniform that will be heading in to phase-out.

On the ABUs I'm going to have to be the lone holdout for blue tapes.  I still think one color that will work on both ABUs and corporate BBDUs, and one color rank insignia that will work on both as well as both the green and blue flight suits is the way we should be going.

Thanks for your efforts!

You are correct. There will be no changes made to the BDU's other than requesting wear of the green boots which is consistant with current USAF policy.

[arajca]

On the ABUs I'm going to have to be the lone holdout for blue tapes.  I still think one color that will work on both ABUs and corporate BBDUs, and one color rank insignia that will work on both as well as both the green and blue flight suits is the way we should be going.

You're not alone. I think the dark blue tape w/white lettering provides a better distinction than the sage green does.

Lt Col White,
    While talking boot for bdu's, would the green boots become a replacement or an option for the bbdu?

[LtCol White]

On the ABUs I'm going to have to be the lone holdout for blue tapes.  I still think one color that will work on both ABUs and corporate BBDUs, and one color rank insignia that will work on both as well as both the green and blue flight suits is the way we should be going.

You're not alone. I think the dark blue tape w/white lettering provides a better distinction than the sage green does.

Lt Col White,
    While talking boot for bdu's, would the green boots become a replacement or an option for the bbdu?

No, BBDU would still use black boots.

[Phillip]

Phil:

Try the sage green flight jacket with the orange liner.  We are authorized that jacket with flight gear, and that is far warmer than the lightweight blue.

Or the green nomex CWU-45/P (winter weight) or CWU-36/P (summer weight) jacket. Nylon knockoffs of these style jackets abound for a lot cheaper than the $200+ cost of nomex (average about $75-$100). However, you can't wear the green flight jacket with blues.

Thanks for the suggestions gentleman, but I've already chosen (like a month ago) the dark blue flightsuit for flight duties.    

[ddelaney103]

I think we should ask for white on navy tapes and insignia for the ABU instead of sage.  We should also ask for full color on navy grade insignia for the sage flightsuit instead of the plastic encased.

Now that we are moving toward blue for the epaulet slides and nametags, we can then link the uniforms using that color.

I would prefer both our field uniforms and flight/utility uniforms use the same accessories to reduce variations.  Since putting sage on the BBDU would be odd, putting navy on the ABU seems the best plan.

Likewise, putting full color on blue grade on the sage flightsuit would be a better choice than full color on sage on the blue flightsuit/utility jumpsuit.  IMHO, putting full color on sage on the sage flightsuit won't make us look more AF - it will make us look like Naval Aviators.

Also, if we keep BDU's longer than 2012 we should phase out the white on ultramarine for white on navy.

[arajca]

Addressing the structure of CAPM 39-1. I think it should be broken up by function, not AF/CAP. For example:
Chapter 1 - Uniform Policy
Chapter 2 - Work Uniforms (bdu, bbdu, golf shirt)
Chapter 3 - Service Uniforms (AF blue shirt, aviator shirts)
Chapter 4 - Flight Uniforms
Chapter 5 - Dress Uniforms (Service dress, mess dress, semi formal, blazer)
Chapter 6 - Awards
Chapter 7 - Insignia (excl. grade which is covered in the appropriate chapters) incl. specifications
Chapter 8 - Special equipment (vests, es gear, safety gear, etc)
Chapter 9 - Grooming and H/W standards

[billford1]

I'm new to this forum so this may have been already addressed but here goes. How do the National Board folks feel about how uniform CAP members should look when they participate as a group on SAR or other CAP activities? When I ask this I include overweight and bearded types who show up and are quite able to fill multiple roles. Our unit was called out on an active SAR recently in a very large transportation facility where there was an ELT. The management and workers were a little confused when the the four ground team members had 4 different uniforms. There was a BDU, a BBDU, a golf shirt corporate and a flight suit. They could have laughed at us but we were able to convince them that the AFRCC had located an ELT in or near their facility, and in the absence of a crashed airplane there may be illegal drug smuggling in their midst. The facility managers cooperated with us and we did complete the ELT find in a aircraft being shipped in a large container. If we had all been authorized to wear the BDU it would have made us look like a team.

[mikeylikey]

We also need an updated form with a more current date from AAFES authorizing MCSS purchases.  Perhaps even a section detailing what is permissible to buy without an MSA, and what is allowed with the MSA.  They used to have a chapter on AAFES purchases and whatnot about 40 years ago.  Bring it back?

Also, Are the buttons on the Corp Jacket staying "CAP", or is there a push to make them the Hap Arnold? 

If the push is to get the blue rank slides, lets get slides that match the jacket in color.  I am not sure, is the Corporate jacket the same shade as the current AF service coat?  (what 1620??)

[LtCol White]

I'm new to this forum so this may have been already addressed but here goes. How do the National Board folks feel about how uniform CAP members should look when they participate as a group on SAR or other CAP activities? When I ask this I include overweight and bearded types who show up and are quite able to fill multiple roles. Our unit was called out on an active SAR recently in a very large transportation facility where there was an ELT. The management and workers were a little confused when the the four ground team members had 4 different uniforms. There was a BDU, a BBDU, a golf shirt corporate and a flight suit. They could have laughed at us but we were able to convince them that the AFRCC had located an ELT in or near their facility, and in the absence of a crashed airplane there may be illegal drug smuggling in their midst. The facility managers cooperated with us and we did complete the ELT find in a aircraft being shipped in a large container. If we had all been authorized to wear the BDU it would have made us look like a team.

Not a topic for this Thread. Please read the initial post on page one. Thanks

[LtCol White]

We also need an updated form with a more current date from AAFES authorizing MCSS purchases.  Perhaps even a section detailing what is permissible to buy without an MSA, and what is allowed with the MSA.  They used to have a chapter on AAFES purchases and whatnot about 40 years ago.  Bring it back?

Also, Are the buttons on the Corp Jacket staying "CAP", or is there a push to make them the Hap Arnold? 

If the push is to get the blue rank slides, lets get slides that match the jacket in color.  I am not sure, is the Corporate jacket the same shade as the current AF service coat?  (what 1620??)

The buttons on the corp coat are the old CAP buttons. USAF said no to the Hap Arnold buttons. Yes, the CSU is the same as the USAF service uniform. The blue eps will match the shade of the coat.

[SAR-EMT1]

Thank you for your efforts Lt Col. White. Is there any way in which we may further assist your group in this process?

[AlphaSigOU]

We also need an updated form with a more current date from AAFES authorizing MCSS purchases.  Perhaps even a section detailing what is permissible to buy without an MSA, and what is allowed with the MSA.  They used to have a chapter on AAFES purchases and whatnot about 40 years ago.  Bring it back?

Also, Are the buttons on the Corp Jacket staying "CAP", or is there a push to make them the Hap Arnold? 

If the push is to get the blue rank slides, lets get slides that match the jacket in color.  I am not sure, is the Corporate jacket the same shade as the current AF service coat?  (what 1620??)

Corporate service dress is shade 1625 polyester doubleknit. The RealAirForce® service dress jacket is available only at the MCSS in shade 1620 poly/wool. You can get the RealAirForce® service dress jacket in 1625, but it's a private purchase item - it's no longer stocked at the MCSS.

[AlphaSigOU]

Phil:

Try the sage green flight jacket with the orange liner.  We are authorized that jacket with flight gear, and that is far warmer than the lightweight blue.

Or the green nomex CWU-45/P (winter weight) or CWU-36/P (summer weight) jacket. Nylon knockoffs of these style jackets abound for a lot cheaper than the $200+ cost of nomex (average about $75-$100). However, you can't wear the green flight jacket with blues.

Thanks for the suggestions gentleman, but I've already chosen (like a month ago) the dark blue flightsuit for flight duties.    

Not a problem at all.

[Pylon]

I'm new to this forum so this may have been already addressed but here goes. How do the National Board folks feel about how uniform CAP members should look when they participate as a group on SAR or other CAP activities? When I ask this I include overweight and bearded types who show up and are quite able to fill multiple roles. Our unit was called out on an active SAR recently in a very large transportation facility where there was an ELT. The management and workers were a little confused when the the four ground team members had 4 different uniforms. There was a BDU, a BBDU, a golf shirt corporate and a flight suit. They could have laughed at us but we were able to convince them that the AFRCC had located an ELT in or near their facility, and in the absence of a crashed airplane there may be illegal drug smuggling in their midst. The facility managers cooperated with us and we did complete the ELT find in a aircraft being shipped in a large container. If we had all been authorized to wear the BDU it would have made us look like a team.

Though not a topic for this thread, I just want to quickly address this so people don't confuse this with an actual issue.  "If we had all been authorized to wear the BDU it would have made us look like a team" is the quote from your post.

The Air Force is not going to consider dropping weight/height or grooming standard requirements for the AF-style uniforms, so we're not going to waste everyone's time going down that route.  That having been said, your team was authorized a handful of uniforms that everyone could have worn.  Everyone on your team could have worn the Blue BDUs.  Everyone on your team could have worn the golf shirt.  Everyone on your team could have worn the blue utility uniform.  Everyone on your team could have received guidance from the incident commander regarding appropriate uniforms in which to report to mission base.

The fact that members choose to wear a variety of uniforms is not the fault of what is and what is not authorized based on grooming and weight standards.  Your members could have shown up in mess dress lacking definitive guidance from above, so let's not blame the disjointed appearance on all members not being able to wear AF-style uniforms.

If the appropriate uniform and its one corporate equivalent is established as the expected uniform for an activity, you'll end up with members in no more than two uniforms - with the same insignia and placement on each - the only difference being the color of the fabric.

The Uniform Committee is going to look at reducing down the closet of CAP uniforms close to a one-for-one equivalence with the AF-style uniforms.  This doesn't alleviate local commander's however from needing to prescribe appropriate uniforms for an activity.  If anybody would like to discuss this concept further, let's take it to a new thread so as not to bog down this one.  I did, however, want to clarify that we don't find weight/grooming standards as an effective reason for exploring unlikely uniform changes.

[mikeylikey]

The Air Force is not going to consider dropping weight/height or grooming standard requirements for the AF-style uniforms, so we're not going to waste everyone's time going down that route. 

What?!?  Not even try because you feel it would be a waste of time.  How about try, and then say "hey at least we tried".  How hard would it be to type a proposal to drop or CHANGE HT/WT standards......WHILE your typing up all this other "small stuff". 

Must be nice to pick and choose for all of us......I liked some of where the committee is going, but not putting the HT/WT change request in is silly.  Unless you have personally spoken to the AF, and they said "weight standards won't even be considered", don't make such a quick judgement call for everyone.

If you don't want to write up the proposal, I am sure someone else would be happy too.

Did I miss the point of your post? Perhaps....but now I know how this committee is really working.

[LtCol White]

The Air Force is not going to consider dropping weight/height or grooming standard requirements for the AF-style uniforms, so we're not going to waste everyone's time going down that route. 

What?!?  Not even try because you feel it would be a waste of time.  How about try, and then say "hey at least we tried".  How hard would it be to type a proposal to drop or CHANGE HT/WT standards......WHILE your typing up all this other "small stuff". 

Must be nice to pick and choose for all of us......I liked some of where the committee is going, but not putting the HT/WT change request in is silly.  Unless you have personally spoken to the AF, and they said "weight standards won't even be considered", don't make such a quick judgement call for everyone.

If you don't want to write up the proposal, I am sure someone else would be happy too.

Did I miss the point of your post? Perhaps....but now I know how this committee is really working.

What is your problem? No, we aren't going to ask USAF to adjust the height/weight standards BECAUSE they have repeatedly said "it is not an option". You don't ask for something when you know the answer is "No". I HAVE personally spoken with HQ CAP USAF on this.

If you read everyone else's posts, this committee is working QUITE well. I really think you should reconsider why you are a CAP member and whether or not you want to stay in the organization. You don't seem to like much about it at all and have nothing but criticism.