NHQ Uniform Committee

[JayT]

Three issues related to cost

1.  Establish in 39-1 a default Phase In/Phase Out period for uniform items. I'd recommend 3 years or so.  That way, the NB can worry about changes, but WE don't have to worry about having to buy new stuff every 6 months!

2. Tackle the fact that most cadets are breaking the rules and wearing civilian outerwear.    Get USAF to agree that cadets can wear civilian outer garments with uniforms.  This seems to be acceptable in JROTC land. 

3.  Establish a low cost navy blue  or black windbreaker that is wearable with all corporate uniforms.  It should be long enough to cover the BDU shirt.  It would go a long way towards low-cost uniformity.  If it was cheap enough, it could allow us to greatly reduce civilian outerwear for seniors.  Taken with #2 above, it could increase uniformity for ALL our members.

Excuse me, but I've never seen a JROTC cadet in a civilian jacket, but I bet the majority of CAP Cadets are in civilian jackets.

I'd like to see the M65 or the MA1 authorized for all uniforms.

[jeders]

Three issues related to cost

1.  Establish in 39-1 a default Phase In/Phase Out period for uniform items. I'd recommend 3 years or so.  That way, the NB can worry about changes, but WE don't have to worry about having to buy new stuff every 6 months!

2. Tackle the fact that most cadets are breaking the rules and wearing civilian outerwear.    Get USAF to agree that cadets can wear civilian outer garments with uniforms.  This seems to be acceptable in JROTC land. 

3.  Establish a low cost navy blue  or black windbreaker that is wearable with all corporate uniforms.  It should be long enough to cover the BDU shirt.  It would go a long way towards low-cost uniformity.  If it was cheap enough, it could allow us to greatly reduce civilian outerwear for seniors.  Taken with #2 above, it could increase uniformity for ALL our members.

Excuse me, but I've never seen a JROTC cadet in a civilian jacket, but I bet the majority of CAP Cadets are in civilian jackets.

I'd like to see the M65 or the MA1 authorized for all uniforms.

My fiancee used to wear her high school letter jacket with her AFJROTC uniform.

I mostly have one request, don't get rid of the AF-style uniforms. They let us wear it, even if it is only some of us, so lets be proud of that.

I think dropping gray slacks altogether and going with just the blue AF-style slacks would be great. This is mostly because I have yet to see two people wearing the same shade/style of gray slacks. With the blue slacks we cut down on number of uniform combos if we keep the TPU CDU and they are easier to get in the same style/shade.

Keep the golf shirt but standardize it more. Also, I'd like to see everyones name embroidered on the golf shirt. Staring into a sea of people I don't know wearing golf shirts where only half, or less, have their name embroidered and I'm trying to find one person is very frustrating. If we required the name, leaving wings/badges optional, I think that would help not only uniformity but also me trying to find someone.

And as so many others have said, make a mandatory minimum phase in date and limit the number of changes that can be made on the fly, except for things like fix the typo on page xx.

Also, I like the idea of a permanent uniform board and virtual wear tests, this way us little members can comment on the things we have to spend money on and wear.

[jb512]

I dunno about these uniform threads... 

Well the good thing is that it seems like the basic stuff that people keep repeating over and over will be considered, while the off-the-wall things that one or two people come up with will be left way out there where they originated.

[ZigZag911]

Several posters have suggested eliminating gray & whites.

There are some members -- I'm one! -- who don't have any
other uniforms.

If the principle here is not to cause members additional expense, eliminating this combination would cause a severe expense to some seniors.

Thank you, Colonel, for accepting this thankless task!

[DrJbdm]

Ok, this may be a little long but I'll weigh in with my suggestions and observations.

TPU & BLUE RANK SLIDES: I really love how the regular AF blue slides look with the AF cut white aviator shirt on the TPU. AF blue slides are cheaper and are more easily obtainable then the grey slides and besides they are cut with a taper so they fit the shirts nicer.

  However, I know some people have been asking to have those disapproved and removed and have only the standard grey CAP slides used so that everyone looks the same. While I think it's nice to look alike for the most part, I think it's nicer yet to have a uniform that looks really sharp and professional and is awfully close to a normal USAF uniform, and a white shirt is more then distinctive enough in every case. (I don't think we need to place CAP on the slides, the shirt is distinctive enough) Lets please keep the blue slides with the TPU.

METAL RANK INSIGNIA: I don't know why some people really want to eliminate the metal rank insignia from the TPU coat other then to match the AF service coat, I think the metal rank insignia looks so much more professional. I'm sure everyone agrees that grey slides on a blue jacket looks horrible. Besides, grey isn't really our heritage, blue is. There are other ways to meet the minimum distintive requirment for uniforms.

  I think we should be trying to earn the privilege of once again wearing metal rank and blue slides on the AF uniform. Eventually if we keep trying we will succeed. Let's not give up. Oh yes, please replace the silver braid on the TPU jacket with the current AF blue commissioning braid.

  Let's eliminate the grey/whites combo uniform, if we can't fit everyone into the TPU with some modifications for neatly trimmed facial hair then those members could wear the polo shirt.

  AF FLIGHT SUITS:  I love the idea of embroidered name tapes and cloth rank insignia on the AF flight suits; I think it looks a lot better. I wouldn't have any problem with using a USAF "standard" color scheme for the name tape or with allowing each wing to have their own color scheme.

  ABU:  With the ABU coming online sooner if not later, then we could look at eliminating the BBDU and putting all those who can't meet USAF weight/grooming standards into the current BDU's...they would be distinctive yet still appear military.

   Of course we might also have some success at convincing USAF to allow more variance in the regulations to allow more people to wear the ABU's. It might not work for the blues, but a field uniform is a different animal. It's worth considering. Please in any case get rid of the ultramarine blue! It's hideous! It makes our uniforms look like clown outfits, it does not present a professional appearance.

  HEIGHT/WEIGHT STANDARDS:  I don't know how possible it would be to ask AF to change our current height/weight charts with a more modern BMI (body mass index) chart, isn't that what they use for active duty troops? OR do all AD/reserve/ANG troops have to meet the "basic training" weight/height standard? Shouldn't we all play from the same rule book when it comes to issues of height/weight standards?

  Let's adopt Air Force Instruction 36-2903 --DRESS AND PERSONAL APPEARANCE OF AIR FORCE PERSONNEL as our uniform manual with CAP amendments where appropriate. It would be a lot easier to keep up with uniform changes and would provide better instructions then our current CAP uniform manual.

  MESS DRESS: I do have one more small request or idea for the mess dress uniform. I wouldn't mind adding in a little grey or silver to the braid and the shoulder boards. Currently the all blue color mixes in so well with the surrounding fabric color that you can't see the shoulder boards very well. It would make it look a little nicer and a little more like a dress uniform in my opinion. Of course my first choice would be to wear regular AF silver braid and shoulder boards with the mess dress uniform with the current CAP mess dress seal worn for the distinctive requirement. Let's keep it simple when it comes to meeting the distinctive requirement, sometimes less is more.

  Just my opinion on things. I think it's important to look sharp and professional when it comes to our color choices. (blue looks WAY sharper and professional then grey does)

  When it comes to uniform changes, we all seem to have an idea of what we want in the way of uniforms that fits whatever our image of what we think CAP should be. The important thing we should remember is that whatever we choose or approve will be judged by both military and civilians alike. Let's not do something that they would both consider to be cheesy. It just makes us looks bad.  Image IS everthing! Perception IS reality!

[Eclipse]

Please clarify placement of wings and badges on the BDU/BBDU.

Table 6-6 says: "When placing multiple insignia in the same area, measure from the insignia to insignia not blue to blue."

However it doesn't say whether the first badge is blue-to-blue or white to white.

Please clarify placement of the CAP cutout on the M65 for seniors as well.  I could not find a measurement or spec (i.e. "center").

[mikeylikey]

Please clarify placement of the CAP cutout on the M65 for seniors as well.  I could not find a measurement or spec (i.e. "center").

Get rid of that cutout requirement!  The jacket already has a "Civil Air Patrol" branchtape. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

OK, maybe one of the medicos can help me out on this one.  And, I think this is important.

Ithink it is important to get everybody into ONE uniform.  Our meetings look like NATO conferences.

We cannot put everybody into AF uniforms because of the weight requirement in the uniform regulation.  But, in my usta-bee medical opinion, the weight standard is incomplete and wrong.

In the Army, we had the "Screening weight," above which the soldier had to be checked for body fat.  If the soldier was within the body fat standard, he was good to go.

The CAP standard attempts to address this by raising the screening weight by 10 percent over the AF standard, but eliminating a body fat consideration.

Taking my own records from the Army into account, my screening weight was 192.  Ten percent over that would be 211.  But in the Army, the lowest I ever got was 220, and I was always within the body fat standard.  Looking at my OER's, I was once as high as 231 and still within the body fat requirement and still passed the PT test.

Muscle weighs more than fat.  To meet the CAP weight standard, a muscular person must reduce both fat and muscle, which means he/she must actually AVOID exercise to try to meet the weight standard.

Since the regulation is being re-written, we have to address the weight issue as well.  Body fat is easy to measure and compute.  It can be done with non-medical personnel.

The Army standard for body fat is higher than the AF standard, but the measurement procedure is slightly different... In the Army the abdominal measurement is taken at the umbilicus, but the AF measures abdominal girth at the iliac crest.

We can go with either one, but the wheel is already invented.

[mikeylikey]

If anything comes from this uniform thing, I am in total agreement with Major K.  I would love to see body fat % as apposed to a weight table.  I barely am allowed into a CAP uniform, but yet I would be WAY under the upper limits if I were in the AF.  I am guessing that there are others like me?  I lost over 150 pounds to join the military, and I am on a strict lifting and cardio routine that has seen me through ROTC, OBC, C3, multiple deployments etc.  I guess you could say I "am huge".  All done without roids.

I must also say, I look better in the AF style uniform than those who "just make the weight table" because they carry around 50-100 pounds of extra FAT.  I am all for getting rid of the extra 10 percent on the weight, and anybody busting weight on the AF chart, would need to be taped for BF%. 

This is something that should have changed YEARS AGO!

Everyone should get out there and try to lose the weight anyway.  You will feel much better about yourself in the end.  AND you may actually live longer!

[Dragoon]

While this is topic drift

The idea of body fat or BMI is tougher than you think. It requires local guys to do the calculations.  (anybody know where your "iliac crest" is?).  Given the training level of our local squadrons.....

Also, depending on the calculation method, it's not hard to cheat a bit (girdles, sucking in your gut, etc).  A true professional would not allow these things to happen - but CAP has the "nice guy" syndrome.   No one wants to be a hard a$$.  Plus, this would require folks to line up to be taped (unless you go with the honor system).

Sadly, I'm convinced that using anything other than a number on a scale will just end up being a loop hole to put lots of gut-sucking tubby guys (now there's a turn of phrase) in uniform.

Second issue - the USAF charts only go up to age 55+.  That's a major problem for us - one of the main reasons for our weight issues is our members' advanced age.  Coming up with age appropriate charts is no small feat.

I'd suggest first seeing if USAF will back off on the existing weight standard and put everyone in USAF suits (or at the very least, in USAF utility and flight suits).  If that fails, go for the corporate.

[LtCol White]

Guys, lets please get back on topic now. We understand the issue over the weight standards for wear of the uniforms and will address this as well.

[Dragoon]

I think it is important to get everybody into ONE uniform.  Our meetings look like NATO conferences.

Boy do I agree with that.

But I wonder if CAP as a whole does.

It would be nice for any uniform committee to agree on the goals for the CAP uniform.

For example, imagine rank ordering the following things


1.  Presenting a single, uniform appearance to the public

2.  Resembling the USAF

3.  Keeping cost low.

4.  Giving members the ability to display their achievements and qualifications.

5.  Giving members alternative uniforms  to allow for individual fashion tastes.

6.  Resembling other ES organizations we might work with.

7.  Instill in the membership a sense of military culture (attention to detail, obeying authority, etc.)


Depending on how you rank order these things, the uniform decisions you make would be very different.  I'd wager a case of beer that the folks on this thread would not agree on what the correct order of priority should be.


I'd love to see some top level direction along these lines - tell the committee what you expect uniforms to DO, and then let them work the details of how to get there.

[mikeylikey]

Lets not forget any uniform committee will not be a cross cut of our organization.  Are Cadets going to be included?  Do you have any females?  What about size and type?  Do you have members that can't fit in a AF style uniform......we know how their votes most likely will go! 

I applaud the creation and work that will be done of this group.  I just think we may see unnecessary changes (costly as well), and some of our accomplishments regarding uniforms ("US" Cutouts" etc.) go away.

[DrJbdm]

I don't think we need to resemble other ES organizations...we really don't work with any except for State police and local Law Enforcement agencies. What we need to do is try and resemble USAF as close as we possibly can.. We will find ourselves much better off in the end.

 Yes, we have FAR too many uniform combos, everyone agrees on that. What we don't agree on is how to eliminate those combos. Here's what you do in my opinion:

1) Eliminate with a very short phase out period the whites/greys, they really serve no purpose anymore now that we have the TPU.

2) Eliminate the blazer uniforms. Members who can not / will not wear a military uniform can wear appropriate civilian dress to formal/semi formal receptions.

3) spell out MILSPEC standards for the white aviator shirt (for the TPU)

4) Restrict the wear of a standardized Polo shirt for those members who will not or can not fit into a military image. (You have those who simply WILL NOT want to wear a military looking uniform)

  Yes, I would love to phase out everything except for USAF uniforms but sadly that can't happen nor can we really lose the USAF uniforms. I would love to get rid of the BBDU and the blue flight suit/jumpsuit but once again we really can't.

5) Spell out MILSPEC standards for the BBDU and the blue NOMEX flight suit.

6) Once the ABU comes online for us to wear we should establish as short of a phase out period as we can for the BDU's otherwise we end up still looking like a NATO conference.

   I don't think there is much we can do to eliminate the NATO looking conferences unless we start restricting what uniforms can be worn and where they can be worn.  

 Let's keep the TPU as is except for some minor changes to the jacket ie: replace the ugly silver braid with the standard blue braid.

We can't change the USAF uniform, so leave it alone and start begging USAF for whatever changes we would like to see.

 Our major problems are the several different corporate uniforms that we have, not the rank insignia. We have four different corporate uniforms not counting the BBDU or the blue flight suit. We don't need to have both the TPU and the white/greys, and a blazer uniform, and a polo shirt uniform. Eliminate the white/greys and the blazer uniform.  Those steps would eliminate a large portion of the problems we face. Of course you will not please everyone.

[SeattleSarge]

Since we seem to be so concerned about taking the star off NCO chevrons, I think we should also advocate placing a prop over each of the officer rank insignias.  Similar to the "A" on Coastie Aux insignia.  I mean fair is fair, right.

Seriously, lets make changes that don't cost the members any more money.  Eliminate or reduce speciality (expensive) insignia and reduce the authorized uniform combinations.

This shouldn't be hard.

-SeattleSarge

[mikeylikey]

^  Right on!   Lets also get rid of some patches while we are at it.  Make the Wing Patches MANDATORY AGAIN!  If not, then eliminate them altogether.....don't give Wing Kings the varied amount of "options" they have regarding uniforms.

[0]

 Our major problems are the several different corporate uniforms that we have, not the rank insignia. We have four different corporate uniforms not counting the BBDU or the blue flight suit. We don't need to have both the TPU and the white/greys, and a blazer uniform, and a polo shirt uniform. Eliminate the white/greys and the blazer uniform.  Those steps would eliminate a large portion of the problems we face. Of course you will not please everyone.

I agree with the grey and whites because there isn't a standard shade of grey.  But eliminating the polo, that's all some senior squadrons wear.  And remember this is to help save money so those that have them will have to spend more money.

[CS]

Message to the committee short and sweet, stop making changes and issue an immediate moratorium on any changes for the next three years!

That's my suggestion from a member with over 30 years in CAP that has spent more money on CAP uniforms then I did the entire time I was at sea!

That is the only way you can stop the senseless spending of  CAP volunteer money.

(BTW, eliminate the sole contract with Vanguard, it has lines someone's pocket but not the members)

[JohnKachenmeister]

I sent this to LtCol White as a PM, but I will share it with everyone for discussion.

It should be a goal to get everybody into one uniform.  One service dress, one BDU (or ABU, as the case may be), one flight suit.

Having the golf shirt as a casual uniform or uniform for the bearded guys is OK, and I don't think we can lose the blazer because its required for IACE.  The USAF has a golf shirt combo, as well.

So, I think there has to be two plans:

Plan "A" would be to get the USAF to back off substantially on the weight restrictions, and we can all wear the AF blue, ABU, and AF flight suits.  That's how it was for many years, with no problems. 

If that fails, go to Plan "B:"

Plan B would be to adopt the BBDU and Blue flight suit CAP-wide, over an extended phase-in period. Plan B would be to also design a new corporate uniform that follows the style of the AF Hap Arnold Heritage uniform, but is sufficiently different to be considered "Our" corporate thread.  As the AF put their Hap A. uniform into the field, we can also phase in OUR Hap Arnold uniform.

The result would be that we would all be dressed alike... one team, one uniform... and we would look like a part of the AF, although different enough to be identifiable as our own gang.

[ZigZag911]

1) Eliminate with a very short phase out period the whites/greys, they really serve no purpose anymore now that we have the TPU.

2) Eliminate the blazer uniforms. Members who can not / will not wear a military uniform can wear appropriate civilian dress to formal/semi formal receptions.

Responses:

1) not everyone can fit into TPU; further, not everyone can afford it

2) why?