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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: FRO Checklist on Missions
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tinker
Recruit

Posts: 44

« on: February 18, 2018, 01:55:11 PM »

I haven't been around here for quite some time, but I wanted to check to see if there were any discussions about the new FRO checklist.  I see one long thread on FROs, dispatching, liability, etc.  Apologies if Search failed me, but I did not see anything on what I think is a much more important issue:

As an AOBD over the years I have released probably 1000+ sorties on SAREXs and on real missions.  I see no way that I can function on a mission if this checklist is required.  Some of it is redundant, some is just plain silly, but too much is hopelessly burdensome.

Silly:

"What does the pilot consider to be the highest risk for this flight?"  Always the same:  "Inability of the pilot and/or the airplane to generate lift greater than the downward force of gravity."  Duh.

Burdensome:

"Is the pilot aware of the discrepancies?"  Implies that I have to check online for discrepancies for each airplane, for every sortie.  Impossible.  I routinely release sorties verbally, then go back to WMIRS when I have a break.  If I am launching 30+ sorties a day I cannot check with WMIRS before every single one.

"Is it legal to fly with these discrepancies?"  Another knee-slapper.  To answer this question I either have to have a copy of the FARs or have memorized the salient stuff like TOMATO FLAMES.  I also have to posses a POH for every airplane in the wing's fleet, as there are things like the 182 KOEL list that go beyond the FARs.  We have a maintenance function and we have certificated pilots, for chrissake.  If they can't determine the legality of the airplanes, then that is the problem to be solved.  It is not solved by a checklist.

"Are all destinations along the route of flight authorized for landings in CAP aircraft?"  Probably not, since there are many private airports that are charted.  And what if the answer is "No?" Do I refuse to release?

"If filing a flight plan, remind them to close it when finished."  Jeez.  Am I dealing with ignorant and impulsive children?

"Has the pilot read and understand [SIC] the latest hot topics for pilots."  Huh?  A search of the national web site does not reveal this information.  I did find a page of administrivia that might pertain but, jeez, how can this be a serious idea for a checklist?

and the beat goes on.  I have talked to our state ops guy and he feels the same way, but also said that multiple people have communicated this issue to National and have been met by total silence.  So, I dunno.  I may have run my last mission.  I won't treat our pilots like children and I won't willingly put myself into a situation where it is impossible to succeed on a mission.

Has anyone else looked at this idiot checklist from a mission effectiveness point of view?
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Mission/Tow Pilot
Seasoned Member

Posts: 420

« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2018, 02:21:52 PM »

Silly:

"What does the pilot consider to be the highest risk for this flight?"  Always the same:  "Inability of the pilot and/or the airplane to generate lift greater than the downward force of gravity."  Duh.

How about Terrain, Birds, towers, traffic or something mission specific?  Why is asking the pilot to think about risks a bad thing?

Burdensome:

"Is the pilot aware of the discrepancies?"  Implies that I have to check online for discrepancies for each airplane, for every sortie.  Impossible.  I routinely release sorties verbally, then go back to WMIRS when I have a break.  If I am launching 30+ sorties a day I cannot check with WMIRS before every single one.

You make sure the pilot has checked. Frequently, during this new process the answer I have received is no I didnít check.  The question is there to make sure that the pilot checks discrepancies, why is this a bad thing?

"Is it legal to fly with these discrepancies?"  Another knee-slapper.  To answer this question I either have to have a copy of the FARs or have memorized the salient stuff like TOMATO FLAMES.  I also have to posses a POH for every airplane in the wing's fleet, as there are things like the 182 KOEL list that go beyond the FARs.  We have a maintenance function and we have certificated pilots, for chrissake.  If they can't determine the legality of the airplanes, then that is the problem to be solved.  It is not solved by a checklist.

You are asking the pilot is it legal to fly with these discrepancies. They should know the answer.  Again why is asking a simple question a bad thing?

"Are all destinations along the route of flight authorized for landings in CAP aircraft?"  Probably not, since there are many private airports that are charted.  And what if the answer is "No?" Do I refuse to release?

Destinations imply that the aircrew is going to land of these airports.  I think youíre confusing destinations with flyovers.

"If filing a flight plan, remind them to close it when finished."  Jeez.  Am I dealing with ignorant and impulsive children?

Dude, every day pilots forget to close their flight plans, whatís the issue with reminding them?

"Has the pilot read and understand [SIC] the latest hot topics for pilots."  Huh?  A search of the national web site does not reveal this information.  I did find a page of administrivia that might pertain but, jeez, how can this be a serious idea for a checklist?

This is poorly worded and needs to be changed, I believe these are the new critical messages that come up on WMIRS. Iíve submitted a trouble ticket for this.

and the beat goes on.  I have talked to our state ops guy and he feels the same way, but also said that multiple people have communicated this issue to National and have been met by total silence.  So, I dunno.  I may have run my last mission.  I won't treat our pilots like children and I won't willingly put myself into a situation where it is impossible to succeed on a mission.

Missions are still being run, planes flown and gliders launched. As easily as before? Perhaps not, but perhaps they are now being launched with an increased awareness of WX, Maint, Risks, etc. As an FRO and an Aircrew member we need to get used to the new system.

We can choose to work with the new system and make it an opportunity to work together to make a flight safer or we can complain. I chose to work with the new system and encourage acceptance.

Has anyone else looked at this idiot checklist from a mission effectiveness point of view?

Yes, and the new system does not add that much time with the new copy links.

Thank said there are some things that need improving and Iíve submitted trouble tickets that hopefully will be approved.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 02:53:56 PM by Mission/Tow Pilot » Logged
Mission/Tow Pilot
Seasoned Member

Posts: 420

« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2018, 02:23:11 PM »

^^
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 02:37:35 PM by Mission/Tow Pilot » Logged
tinker
Recruit

Posts: 44

« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2018, 03:07:42 PM »

Too tedious to quote and unquote your text, so:

"How about Terrain, Birds, towers, traffic or something mission specific?  Why is asking the pilot to think about risks a bad thing?'
None of those things is the highest risk.  Asking about risk like this is a waste of time and, with the kind of pilots I generally deal with, somewhat insulting.  I might ask a very junior pilot something like this.

"You make sure the pilot has checked."

That's not what the question says. If that's what they mean then that's what they should say.

"You are asking the pilot is it legal to fly with these discrepancies."
Again, that's not what the question says.

"Destinations imply that the aircrew is going to land of these airports."
Much simpler if that is the intent.

"Dude, every day pilots forget to close their flight plans, whatís the issue with reminding them?"
Because it is a waste of time and time during a mission is precious.  Much of this checklist falls into that category.  Wasted time with no benefit.  While I am dinking around with stuff like this I probably have two or three air crews held up waiting for briefing and a release and maybe an injured pilot down in the woods somewhere.

"Missions are still being run, planes flown and gliders launched. As easily as before? Perhaps not, but perhaps they are now being launched with an increased awareness of WX, Maint, Risks, etc. As an FRO and an Aircrew member we need to get used to the new system.

We can choose to work with the new system and make it an opportunity to work together to make a flight safer or we can complain. I chose to work with the new system and encourage acceptance."


Your assertion that this will make flights safer and that there is an increased awareness of WX, etc. is unproven, unproveable, and IMO unlikely.  Regarding eating whatever is dished up without complaint, that only encourages poor cooking.

"Yes, and the new system does not add that much time with the new copy links."

I assume you are talking about WMIRS.  By the time I get to mission base at 6:30 or 7AM I have already verbally released 3-6 flights while driving from the motel.  When I get to mission base I have many things to do before I can get around to making WMIRS happy about those flights.
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Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 625

« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2018, 04:34:32 PM »

Interesting thread. 

A couple of observations:

Releasing flights while driving suggests a fundamental problem with prioritizing tasks on the part of the AOBD/Driver.  Read the NIHS stats...  driving and chatting on a cell are not a good idea.  I've read several recent reports of fatal accidents caused by a driver minding a conversation and not immediate priorities.

It seems a good idea for pilots to be reminded that issues identified in eDiscrepancies need to be evaluated based upon each mission.  For example, would YOU fly a low level mission over big rocks knowing your engine was making metal from an unknown source?  From my experience with discrepancies listed therein "flight limitations" are sometimes inconsistent with FARs and sometimes inconsistent with the "safe to fly" part of the pre-flight determination of "airworthy".  Isn't this pertinent information for the FRO or AOBD to consider?  A checklist doesn't take long to work through.  Where wording is ambiguous, I agree it needs fixed. 
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tinker
Recruit

Posts: 44

« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2018, 04:41:35 PM »

... A couple of observation ...
Thank you, Mommy.  Given your obvious humility, I'm sure you are a real joy to be around.
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Mission/Tow Pilot
Seasoned Member

Posts: 420

« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2018, 04:49:36 PM »

... A couple of observation ...
Thank you, Mommy.  Given your obvious humility, I'm sure you are a real joy to be around.

Why the unhelpful sarcasm?
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Fester
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2018, 04:54:57 PM »

... A couple of observation ...
Thank you, Mommy.  Given your obvious humility, I'm sure you are a real joy to be around.

Why the unhelpful sarcasm?

He probably was disappointed that you called him out for his unsafe practices when, as an FRO, he's responsible for the safety of his aircrews. 

Just my guess.  :D
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tinker
Recruit

Posts: 44

« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2018, 05:22:54 PM »

... He probably was disappointed that you called him out for his unsafe practices when, as an FRO, he's responsible for the safety of his aircrews. 

Just my guess.  :D
Oh, right.  Like I care about SGOTI's opinion based on pure speculation about situations he knows nothing about.
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Pace
CAPTalk Moderator
Dark S'Member Lord
*
Posts: 715

« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2018, 01:26:11 AM »

I'm really getting tired of the same nonsense on this board. You asked a question and then proceed to denigrate the first person you responds. We're done here.


*click*
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Lt Col, CAP
Former C/Lt Col
Former this & that
Squadron guy
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: FRO Checklist on Missions
 


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