Newbee Senior Uniforms?

[Ned]

I can't really disagree with you that when members wear a wide variety of uniforms to the same function that it - by definition -- looks less uniform.

But commanders already possess the ability to direct that particular uniforms (or at least classes of uniforms) be worn for particular functions.



Also, it is critically important for the cadet program for the cadet to wear the current USAF style uniform for a number of reasons, including leadership training and retention.


Finally,

If the AF is is concerned about maintaining appearances theyre not doing a very good job. An overweight officer is an overweight officer and hes going to be that and people are going to associate him with the AF regardless.

This kinda belongs in the "if pigs had wings . . ." catagory. 

The USAF call is the USAF call.  You or I (or the USCG) might make a different one, but it is their ball and they have been very consistent on their grooming and weight standards for about a half-century at this point.


You can probably reach the USAF Chief of Staff at this office in the Pentagon.

[Pumbaa]

Well I just lost all that I typed!!! Stupid log out!

@#%@%#%#@&%#!!!!!

I agree the cadet uniforms are not the real issue.. Leave them as is, AF BDU and Blues, this is mainly what they come for.. Plus they don't have the plethora of uniforms until they turn 18!!!

Cadet program, aka playing/ learning military.. Recruitment and retention...

Seniors Officers are a different story.  Allowing for weight and age we need to narrow the choices down to maintain the type of uniformity you see on the cadet side of the house. Since we have a lot of shapes, weights, and hair.. Why not narrow it down?

The reasoning behind the TPU is nothing short of pride, arrogence and 100% stupidity. Leadership shold be hung out to dry for that end run... Now that it is here though, just make it available to the fuzzy, along with the fat and fit, then just drop the grays. I mean it's NOT an AF uniform, so what the heck!

But over all there is nothing we can do as it is controlled from the top.. aka Mama blue and TP.

THat said we can do something on the local level.  For the Seniors Officers.  The commander should just say that we are going to obtain uniformity, thus we standarize on the CAP uniforms, ie. BlueDU's, Blue Flight Suit and Grays/Aviators.  Then have the UotD so everyone is lock step.  Then as commanders in groups get together they spread the word, and whole groups will start to do it in particaular during SAREXs and other group activities.  Sooner or later it would work its way up, its a grass roots thing...

That being said, it is not an ideal world, and I doubt it would ever get so far.. but you know, if I do get a flight/squadron I would really try...

ETA: I've been working on loosing weight.. Looks like I am not longer fat!!!  I qualify by 2 lbs.. How'z about them apples?

But ya know what... I am still fuzzy, and even if I shave I'll still go CAP Blue.

[Hawk200]

You've actually contradicted yourself in a way. In EMS (in general, this is not always the case but the terminology is still used) there are the field EMTs and Medics who often wear blue shirts and then there are Medic Supervisors and Ops Managers who wear white, so much so that supervisors, even if the agency doesnt use this uniform policy, are called white shirts (or white hats in the case of firefighters)....

I'm starting to wonder if you really read my initial post at all. I pointed out the insignia being the same, I said absolutely nothing about white shirts being command over the others. The point I was making is that whether the shirt is grey or white, they are still seen as PART OF THE SAME SHERRIF'S DEPARTMENT. Your post indicates that people in your line of work consider anything other than a white shirt as inferior. Not my point, and completely irrelevant to me. I'm sure EMT's are smart enough to figure out that a captain outranks a lieutenant, regardless of his shirt color. If not, I hope my life isn't any danger with them around.

My point is that if the local sherrrif's department all has the same patches, badges, collar insignia, and that regardless of the shirt people still see them as the same organization, then there really is no reason that CAP can't have a blue shirt and a white shirt with the same pants.

It seems to me that your viewpoint is that you can't fit into my uniform of choice, then screw me, I have to wear yours. I resent that. I've never insisted that everyone meet the same weight standard (because I don't believe it), and if you look you'll find that I've defended those who choose not to shave (for whatever reason). Even if I wasn't able to wear them, I wouldn't want to poison the well for those who still could.

I personally think that a TPU and  AF blues can live alongside each other, especially if we grow some brains (or quit sitting on them, whichever) and use the same stuff across the board. White/blue next to blue/blue isn't a real extreme if the epaulets, nametags, and other insignia match. My point is that it can be harmonious if we choose to make it so.

[MIKE]

Well I just lost all that I typed!!! Stupid log out!

Click Remember Me and you will stay logged in until you want to log off.

As far as this topic:  Grumble, grumble... It's always the fat and fuzzies that bring these topics up, but I think that was already mentioned.  Grumble, grumble.

I fit into one of Ned's categories, yet I have worn USAF style since I was a cadork.

[RogueLeader]

Maybe this is what you were saying but how about?

1. Blue BDUs...no more camo.  Boonies are authorized (oh god, someone might think we are SWAT...oh wait...no weapons...whew)

2. Blue and whites with groomed facial hair authorized. Flight cover.

3. The new blue service dress for formal/ ceremonial. Service cover

There...see how easy. Three uniforms in your closet (except maybe more than one set of BDUs) and alot more money in your wallet and perhaps UNIFORMS might get alot less air time on the forums and we could focus on the stupid stuff, like ES, CP and members not having to take out a home mortgage loan to fund their volunteering. I say we let John McCain pay for our uniforms. Or maybe even "W", surely he knows what the Air Force is all about...or does he?

Nope. Sorry, would have to change out ALL of my uniforms then.  NOT going to happen.

[Hawk200]

As far as this topic:  Grumble, grumble... It's always the fat and fuzzies that bring these topics up, but I think that was already mentioned.  Grumble, grumble.

To be fair, it wasn't a fat and fuzzy thread. It was about wearing BDU's when you're on a mission. A topic that has been hashed out and rehashed numerous times since I've been here. And the reason that seems to be forgotten each time.

[SARMedTech]

You've actually contradicted yourself in a way. In EMS (in general, this is not always the case but the terminology is still used) there are the field EMTs and Medics who often wear blue shirts and then there are Medic Supervisors and Ops Managers who wear white, so much so that supervisors, even if the agency doesnt use this uniform policy, are called white shirts (or white hats in the case of firefighters)....

I'm starting to wonder if you really read my initial post at all. I pointed out the insignia being the same, I said absolutely nothing about white shirts being command over the others. The point I was making is that whether the shirt is grey or white, they are still seen as PART OF THE SAME SHERRIF'S DEPARTMENT. Your post indicates that people in your line of work consider anything other than a white shirt as inferior. Not my point, and completely irrelevant to me. I'm sure EMT's are smart enough to figure out that a captain outranks a lieutenant, regardless of his shirt color. If not, I hope my life isn't any danger with them around.

My point is that if the local sherrrif's department all has the same patches, badges, collar insignia, and that regardless of the shirt people still see them as the same organization, then there really is no reason that CAP can't have a blue shirt and a white shirt with the same pants.

It seems to me that your viewpoint is that you can't fit into my uniform of choice, then screw me, I have to wear yours. I resent that. I've never insisted that everyone meet the same weight standard (because I don't believe it), and if you look you'll find that I've defended those who choose not to shave (for whatever reason). Even if I wasn't able to wear them, I wouldn't want to poison the well for those who still could.

I personally think that a TPU and  AF blues can live alongside each other, especially if we grow some brains (or quit sitting on them, whichever) and use the same stuff across the board. White/blue next to blue/blue isn't a real extreme if the epaulets, nametags, and other insignia match. My point is that it can be harmonious if we choose to make it so.

Actually, I said nothing that would indicate that in EMS the "white shirts" are superior, merely that it is a sign of command as it is in many emergency services (EMS, Police, Fire). Ive been a "blue shirt" EMT in two different states now for several years and while my job is different than say, a command medic, I dont feel inferior at all. I consider myself to be a very good EMT. Upon close inspection, people may realize that folks in different color shirts are with the same organization, but the whole point of what I said, which was about uniformity is what you seem to have missed big time. And if you think that i was saying screw you, you have a bit of an overlly delicate ego. What I am saying, is there simply is no need for the two entirely different sets of uniforms and countless combinations of them...blue shirts, white shirts, blue pants, grey pants, blue epis grey epis...its like the friggin Civil War. What you totally missed was that I what I was saying was that if we dropped AF uniforms and used only CAP distinctives, then we would have true uniformity...a uniformity for which there are countless benefits and purposes, not the least of which is comraderie and cohesion. Do you really have that intense a need to wear AF blues?  You sound like you might be one of the ones who would disenroll if our wear of AF styles was discontinued. There is a logic to all members wearing the same uniform, but no real justify one for endless permutations. And you say white/blue next to blue/blue would look just fine. What about white/grey? What about some wearing covers and some not. Or some wearing flight caps and some wearing ball caps. Its not about color, its about uniformity and all that entails.

As far as this topic:  Grumble, grumble... It's always the fat and fuzzies that bring these topics up, but I think that was already mentioned.  Grumble, grumble.

And while you didnt say this, this is the very attitude that just adds fuel to my belief that we should all be wearing the same uniform. There is often an inherent, though perhaps unintentional bias against those who are overweight. My extra 40 pounds is the result of two years of not being able to move without assistance after I went through the windshield of my car when someone slammed into me from the back going about 75mph. So, since I am combining a couple of posts here....Mike, do you think it makes me inferior to you because I am "fat." Sure sounds like it. All im saying is that if we went to all the same uniform, which would necessarily be the distinctives because of regs, there would be fewer arguments about what uniform is for what and far fewer understandings

Tags - MIKE

[Hawk200]

Actually, I said nothing that would indicate that in EMS the "white shirts" are superior, merely that it is a sign of command as it is in many emergency services (EMS, Police, Fire).

If the people from your agencies consider the white shirt the only management, then they do consider the others inferior (in a subordinate/superior sense).

Upon close inspection, people may realize that folks in different color shirts are with the same organization, but the whole point of what I said, which was about uniformity is what you seem to have missed big time.

The impression i'm seeing is you're seeing uniformity as completely, utterly identical. Even different color shirts with otherwise identical trappings would not be considered uniform. You're part of an organization that uses the differences. We would be doing the same, just for a different reason. I don't see how you don't understand the point I'm trying to make.

And if you think that i was saying screw you, you have a bit of an overlly delicate ego.

As another poster put, it would require revamping his closet. I, personally, would have to invest in white shirts (which the ones that are commonly used I think are tacky), and throw out all my BDU's. I used those in the military, it was a simple thing to do some sewing. You would have me throw away one uniform for one that is less than 18 months old. Throwing away others that are perfectly serviceable for field duty.

What I am saying, is there simply is no need for the two entirely different sets of uniforms and countless combinations of them...blue shirts, white shirts, blue pants, grey pants, blue epis grey epis...its like the friggin Civil War. What you totally missed was that I what I was saying was that if we dropped AF uniforms and used only CAP distinctives, then we would have true uniformity...a uniformity for which there are countless benefits and purposes, not the least of which is comraderie and cohesion.

I agree that there are many variations. But would one set of epaulets and nametag on a blue or white shirt be so drastically different that you couldn't handle that?

I say pick one set of accoutrements, carry them across the board, have blues for those who can wear them, and blue/white for those who cannot. And I've never felt any less comraderie with another member that wasn't wearing blues or a woodland BDU, I've never been hung up on uniformity that much. They aren't any greater or less than me, just because they didn't shop the same clothing.

Do you really have that intense a need to wear AF blues?  You sound like you might be one of the ones who would disenroll if our wear of AF styles was discontinued.

That's what I have in my closet. Why should I throw it out? I would have clothing that would no longer serve any purpose. And now that I think of it, I might consider other options if the AF blues were discontinued. The Army Guard gave me clothes, I'm sure the ACA Army branch wouldn't mind another body that has military background.

There is a logic to all members wearing the same uniform, but no real justify one for endless permutations.

So don't have endless permutations, just have a couple of variations. There is logic to having alternates. I find it ironic, there are people that believe that the military standard should be the only standard, but you have the view that the non-military standard should be the only standard. I don't get it. Give me one good reason why I should throw out my current investment, and start over.

And you say white/blue next to blue/blue would look just fine. What about white/grey? What about some wearing covers and some not. Or some wearing flight caps and some wearing ball caps. Its not about color, its about uniformity and all that entails.

So establish the uniformity. I don't think grey/whites look all that uniform anyway. No two people wear the same style or color of grey pants. Shirt pocket shapes and sizes vary too. I hate to say it, but the white/greys are only uniform in concept.

With the TPU, if two people wear it properly, then they will be uniform. The pants for the TPU are the same as blues. If a white shirt was adopted in the same pattern as the blue one, it would go a long way to members being identified as of the same organization.

You advocate a complete elimination of all but one uniform. I advocate two variations of a single theme. Pants the same, hats the same, shoes/socks the same, shirts almost identical just a variation of color. What is so hard about that?

[SARMedTech]

First of all, we are not military. You ask what is so hard about variations on a theme? My question to you is, why the necessity for two entirely different sets of uniforms? Whats the point? Its not like if someone is overweight and wearing an AF uniform that CAP or the AF lose their operational capabilities. Its a foolish regulation which the CGAUX has chosen to ignore. There requirement is grooming, not weight. And what about coats. Certainly there is more difference between the AF service dress and the Corporate one. Theres a whole different appearance, one of which makes those who are not considered worthy to wear AF uniforms look like lighthouse keepers. As far you using the word inferior...inferior refers to quality not rank, status or grade. It refers to the fact that x is not as good as z.

And I said it before but it bears repeating...Fuzzy told us about being asked by AF members, why so many different uniforms from one group? That means that people notice it, that it looks awkward. And if there are too many variations of grey shades and styles of grey trousers, then find a supplier for them and say that no other substitutes or look alikes are allowed. Same with the white shirts.

My point about the camo was that its useless, both for cadets and officers. Its for appearances only and I have no need to look military. Even if I did meet the standards for camo, I wouldnt wear it.

What youve done is give me a laundry list but you havent answered the basic question. What is the need for corporate and AF uniforms. There is no need for it and consequently it creates a division in the membership which doesnt need to be there.

As for you mentioning that my EMS agencies utilizes different colors, yes, we do. But, our tactical trousers are the same shade of blue, the same cut and made by the same manufacture. As are the blue and white shirts. Different in color only. No different style nametags, no different coats, I mean, we are even required to wear the same boots made by Bates. I have no problem with rank insignia being different badges, ribbons etc being different I just think we need to get our act together and say OK folks here is where you will get your uniforms, here is the style number, here is the color shade. How would it look if we slapped different color and style uniforms on the Old Guard at Arlington?

My point is simply this: No one has yet to offer any TRUE reason why there needs to be different sets of uniforms. USCGAUX doesnt do it except for issues of hair grooming..and i mean head hair, not facial. What is most upsetting to me is that this issue is not about any practical, tactical or operational need for multiple uniforms. Its about CAP and the AF making judgements about the people in the uniform.  Oh, your five pounds over weight...sorry, no blue shirt for you but if you like you can go to KMart and buy any old grey trousers and white shirt and thats good enough. This goes much deeper than just a fanatical need to be perfectly uniform. It has to do with what CAP-USAF is saying about some of its members by requiring different uniforms and the fact is that the Corporates are largely viewed as second rate to those who wear the AF style. Thats not a conjecture, Ive seen it in my own squadron and I cant believe its a unique phenomenon. And it seems like CAP has gone to great lengths for no reason: if your overweight and have facial hair, you can wear greys, but if your overweight but not hairy you can wear blue trousers and epis. Certainly you must see that its nonsense.

[CAP Producer]

SARMedTech said: "No one has yet to offer any TRUE reason why there needs to be different sets of uniforms."

The reason is simple. The US Air Force says that if we do not meet their appearance and weight standards (Plus 10 %) we do not wear their uniform. Period.

Our leadership has offered a series of alternaitive uniforms and that is what is authorized.

Yes,  there are alot of uniforms and confusing rules for their wear but nothing that can't be managed.

We can achive uniformity but not as long as peopel have a "I am doing it my way" attitude. That's the real problem with CAP.

Once members put their personal preferences aside, meet the standard and wear an appropriate uniform for the apprpriate activity we will be better off as an organization.

Oh to answer the initial question of the thread.

I suggest that the initial uniform for new members be the polo shirt and grey trousers. When promoted to 2d Lt they should have the aviator shirt and when they demonstrate that they can wear them properly allow wear of complete USAF or CAP Blues.

If you are a pilot then you should have a flight suit or if you are ground personnel the BDU or Blue BDU.

Three uniforms that meet all of your basic needs as a CAP member. Nice and simple.

[ColonelJack]

Hoo, boy.

First of all, we are not military. You ask what is so hard about variations on a theme? My question to you is, why the necessity for two entirely different sets of uniforms? Whats the point? Its not like if someone is overweight and wearing an AF uniform that CAP or the AF lose their operational capabilities. Its a foolish regulation which the CGAUX has chosen to ignore. There requirement is grooming, not weight.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I grow weary of hearing how the Coast Guard allows its Auxiliarists to wear the CG uniform.  It's not the CG uniform.  It's an altered CG uniform, with silver buttons and braid as opposed to gold.  It's recognizable immediately as not being the active CG.  In fact, the CGAux's uniform is more markedly different from CG than CAP's is from AF.  (Did that make sense?) 

And what about coats. Certainly there is more difference between the AF service dress and the Corporate one. Theres a whole different appearance, one of which makes those who are not considered worthy to wear AF uniforms look like lighthouse keepers.

Exsqueeze me?  The only difference -- the only difference -- between the AF blue coat and the CAP blue coat is the number of buttons on the front.  (Well, that and the sleeve braid.)  It's enough like the AF blue coat that many people have to get up close and see the "CAP" cutouts on the lapel to know there's a difference, unless they already know.

And I said it before but it bears repeating...Fuzzy told us about being asked by AF members, why so many different uniforms from one group? That means that people notice it, that it looks awkward. And if there are too many variations of grey shades and styles of grey trousers, then find a supplier for them and say that no other substitutes or look alikes are allowed. Same with the white shirts.

Now that's a good idea.  If we must have three service-dress uniforms, let's make them standardized.  (I still don't get what's wrong with three service-dress uniforms, though, provided the rules are properly enforced.)

My point about the camo was that its useless, both for cadets and officers. Its for appearances only and I have no need to look military. Even if I did meet the standards for camo, I wouldnt wear it.

It's also what's available, unless you want to buy the BBDU.  Kind of limited in that regard, n'est-ce pas?

What youve done is give me a laundry list but you havent answered the basic question. What is the need for corporate and AF uniforms. There is no need for it and consequently it creates a division in the membership which doesnt need to be there.

The answer to your question is a simple one, Grasshopper.  It's that way because the Air Force tells us who wears their uniforms and when.  If they don't want the fat-n-fuzzies in their uniforms, then that's that.  So, for a uniform appearance, we have to invent our own.  That's how that came about.  I don't necessarily see a division in the membership, unless those feeling divided are the ones who base their value to the organization solely on the clothes they're allowed to wear to work.

I just think we need to get our act together and say OK folks here is where you will get your uniforms, here is the style number, here is the color shade. How would it look if we slapped different color and style uniforms on the Old Guard at Arlington?

Pretty darned silly, I agree.  But then, the "real" military has what you suggest.  CAP, not being the military (as you so correctly pointed out), doesn't have that, and can only go so far in requiring it.  Regulations say that outfitting oneself in uniform should not produce financial hardship on the member, and some of this stuff is expensive.

My point is simply this: No one has yet to offer any TRUE reason why there needs to be different sets of uniforms. USCGAUX doesnt do it except for issues of hair grooming..and i mean head hair, not facial.

I beg to differ, my friend.  You've been given the true reason several times.  It may not be the reason you want to hear -- it isn't for many.  But it's the same reason our parents gave us, and we gave our children:  The Air Force said so.  That's it.  Your beef isn't with Civil Air Patrol, it's with the Air Force and their regulations.  This discussion belongs with them, not CAP.

And before you say, "That's no reason!" or some other rejoinder ... it's the only reason AF has to give.  They said so.  So that's it.  It is their uniform, after all.

What is most upsetting to me is that this issue is not about any practical, tactical or operational need for multiple uniforms. Its about CAP and the AF making judgements about the people in the uniform.

They do it all the time!  If you're overweight on active duty, you get weight counseling, restriction, special diets ... and then you get your discharge if you can't shape up.  They can't kick CAP personnel out, but they can darned well make sure overweight people don't wear their uniforms.  And that, as I've said, is their call, and that's what they've made.

This goes much deeper than just a fanatical need to be perfectly uniform. It has to do with what CAP-USAF is saying about some of its members by requiring different uniforms and the fact is that the Corporates are largely viewed as second rate to those who wear the AF style. Thats not a conjecture, Ive seen it in my own squadron and I cant believe its a unique phenomenon.

Then I say it's time those members who view the fat-n-fuzzy as second rate get an attitude adjustment!  I go back to my comment earlier -- if all that makes a person valuable to CAP is the clothes he/she is allowed to wear to work, then those who look down on others need to check their own priorities.

And it seems like CAP has gone to great lengths for no reason: if your overweight and have facial hair, you can wear greys, but if your overweight but not hairy you can wear blue trousers and epis. Certainly you must see that its nonsense.

I do see it as nonsense.  Just not the way you're indicating.  (No offense intended.)

Jack

[RiverAux]

As opposed to CAP's "AF-style" BDU which has white on blue name tapes, rank insignia, and badges and doesn't even have the words "Air Force" on it anywhere? 

[SarDragon]

PS- I think its a CAP-USAF sick joke that the only cover allowed with the greys is the ball cap. Ive seen this on members and it looks unbelievably stupid and ugly. Not that there ever is, but whats the rational for us not being able to wear flight or service covers with the greys?

The Air Force has this thing about mixing uniform items and civilian clothes. I still haven't quite figured out how the NB got away with the TPU.

[Pumbaa]

The Air Force has this thing about mixing uniform items and civilian clothes. I still haven't quite figured out how the NB got away with the TPU.

Ok hunch, YMMV...
I think the way TP got away from it, is basically the Aviator and double breasted jacket are the base of the uniform, they are not 'uniform items' in the eyes of mama blue. Thus, it was not totally subject to her will since it is 'corporate'.

I say BULL PUCKY!!!

So this end run is basically the reverse, of an AF 'uniform'.  What you essentially have could be equated to a airline, police/ fire/ ES, style, what have you.

Remember how many changes happened when the TPU first came out? We had metal rank on the flight cap.. gone, they changed U.S. cutouts to CAP.. etc, etc..

I still will say this was an arrogent, prideful and stupid way to do an end run around mama blue.  All in the name of getting metal rank back.

That being said, since it is thusly a corporate outfit, just drop the No Fuzzy rule, so all Seniors Officers can wear it... with that done kill the grays-Aviator/Golf shirt.  This will at least bring all Seniors Officers to a more uniform appearance.

Why oh why pray-tell can a fat and fuzzy wear the grays, yet a fuzzy can not wear the TPU.. That is wacked logic.. Only difference is color, it is NOT an AF uniform by definition so it is not subject to mama.. That being the case you have a bit of discrimination on a 'corporate' level.

How the heck TP can reason that this 'corporate' outfit can only be worn by Fit and Fat, but not fuzzy is beyond me.  I will say that a well trimmed fuzzy looks a whole lot better than a fatty in any uniform/ outfit...

And I say that looking at my own photos!   

ETA: I want to know who the rocket scientist was who said a ballcap with the grays too?  oops did I insult Rocket scientists?

[wingnut]

Gee
Guys, why get carried away about the uniforms all the time, is that why your in CAP, i mean if you want a better Uniform join Fred Flinstone and become a 'Grand PooPah" with a buffalo skin Hat with Horns.  Very few states wear the green flight suit,, but if you around Active duty guys like my squadron you don't see 300 pound air crewman, CAP guys at 280 pounds and 5 foot 10 look like "BIG green FAT PICKLES. I am asshamed for them and the organization.

The blue BDU is more in line with 90%of the EMS world not just swat. if you remember we went to Camo BDU because it was issued in the 80s. Not a secret agenda. We even had sissy looking powder blue jump suits remember. Orange Flight suits were standard issue for  years for the USAF and US Navy, then Viet Nam and Jungle Bailouts, the Green suit was in because Orange is a great target in the Jungle.

some guys have to grow up and stop playing Army, or GI Joe, it takes away from the mission, spend more time on learning mission skills and less on how you look in the mirror. People usually are not that impressed with you in your uniform anyway, and if your a big fat slob, well guess what they see you as a big fat slob in uniform and if that uniforma has a name on it "well your now a Big fat CAP slob". think about it, are you in shape to walk and perform an elt mission? Worse if you weigh 300 pounds I don't want you in my plane. There is a reason the doctors are freaking out about obesity in America, it is killing us and sucking the productivity out of America. The military has a right to say 'NO FAT PEOPLE" what good are you in combat, canyou carry a 100 pounds pack and walk 10 miles "HELL NO" and a 300 pound Air Crew takes
"TWO Positions" and 15 gallons of extra gas (6 pounds per gallon). Most Overweight people Can't handle the heat stress on a 3 hour 100 degree temp flight. DO THE MATH, IT IS ALL ABOUT SAFETY bottom line, and Getting the mission done and saving lives. So forgive me for telling a Fat CAP member Sorry you cant fly, you can do Admin work and run the radios.

Lets get in shape for the mission

[JohnKachenmeister]

I want to put aside for a moment the fat boy discussion, although I will acknowledge that Wingnut is correct in some of what he says.  Overweight, by CAP standards, also includes a lot of people with greater-than-average muscle mass, however.  I will accept his point, replacing "Overweight" with "Out-of-condition." 

I want to focus on a personal beef of mine, the "Fuzzies."

Corporate uniforms came into existance well before the USAF fat standards were enforced on CAP members.  Initially the blazer uniform was for IACE, because of the sensitivities of certain countries to wearing the Air Force unifrorm there.

Then during the late 60's everybody (except me, I was in Vietnam) wanted to go to Woodstock and be hippies.  Everybody wanted to grow their hair long, wear beads, smoke dope and do free love.  The Air Force, being the neanderthals that they are, would not allow CAP members to wear long hair and flowers in the USAF uniform.   That brought about the corporate grays, specifically to accomdate our "Free spirits."

The Air Force set up their weight standards, and the corporate grays were a readily-available solution for the fat guys.

That history is relavant to the TPU.  There remains a certain class of member who cannot seem to understand that looking like a biker or Charlie Manson is not the image of a professional.  I would have zero problem with well-trimmed beards, goatees, moustaches, etc.  But some people, given an inch, take the whole mile.

So the easiest solution is to ban the beard.  And I can't say I blame them.

[ColonelJack]

Well, my friends, I guess we have been told.

But before I slink away with my tail between my legs because Wingnut called me names, let me point out a couple of things:

First, your assertion that overweight people can't handle three hours in the air is silly.  I had a senior observer rating before leaving CAP and I am only twenty pounds heavier today than I was when I retired.  It might've taken a few extra gallons of gas, but the experience I brought to exercises and missions was worth the expense -- at least, my pilots and MCs (now known as ICs) thought so.  At the time of my retirement I was proficient in mission skills -- not just the deskbound ones, either, having earned GT member rating as well as my aeronautical rating.  

I can walk five miles in 90 minutes, and do so regularly.  Whether I can do it with a 100-pound backpack is open to debate; I've not tried.  When I do, I'll be sure to let you know, as you seem to think that it's a requirement for being able to participate beyond sitting in a swivel chair.

You will get a lot more attention paid to what you say, sir, if you refrain from calling people names.

Jack

[ColonelJack]

Kach ... my previous post was not aimed at you.  I was responding to Wingnut and didn't want to quote him.

Jack

[PhotogPilot]

Gee
Guys, why get carried away about the uniforms all the time, is that why your in CAP, i mean if you want a better Uniform join Fred Flinstone and become a 'Grand PooPah" with a buffalo skin Hat with Horns.  Very few states wear the green flight suit,, but if you around Active duty guys like my squadron you don't see 300 pound air crewman, CAP guys at 280 pounds and 5 foot 10 look like "BIG green FAT PICKLES. I am asshamed for them and the organization.

The blue BDU is more in line with 90%of the EMS world not just swat. if you remember we went to Camo BDU because it was issued in the 80s. Not a secret agenda. We even had sissy looking powder blue jump suits remember. Orange Flight suits were standard issue for  years for the USAF and US Navy, then Viet Nam and Jungle Bailouts, the Green suit was in because Orange is a great target in the Jungle.

some guys have to grow up and stop playing Army, or GI Joe, it takes away from the mission, spend more time on learning mission skills and less on how you look in the mirror. People usually are not that impressed with you in your uniform anyway, and if your a big fat slob, well guess what they see you as a big fat slob in uniform and if that uniforma has a name on it "well your now a Big fat CAP slob". think about it, are you in shape to walk and perform an elt mission? Worse if you weigh 300 pounds I don't want you in my plane. There is a reason the doctors are freaking out about obesity in America, it is killing us and sucking the productivity out of America. The military has a right to say 'NO FAT PEOPLE" what good are you in combat, canyou carry a 100 pounds pack and walk 10 miles "HELL NO" and a 300 pound Air Crew takes
"TWO Positions" and 15 gallons of extra gas (6 pounds per gallon). Most Overweight people Can't handle the heat stress on a 3 hour 100 degree temp flight. DO THE MATH, IT IS ALL ABOUT SAFETY bottom line, and Getting the mission done and saving lives. So forgive me for telling a Fat CAP member Sorry you cant fly, you can do Admin work and run the radios.

Lets get in shape for the mission

I've never thought of it that way, my resignation letter will be on it's way to my squadron CC, with copies to wing and national tomorrow.

By the way, as a pilot, who's overweight, I don't want arrogant twits on my crew, thank you very much.

[Hawk200]

Gee, all this animosity starting from a post advertising coveralls....

Go figure.