Joining AF if unmarried, with a dependent, non-custody

Started by Майор Хаткевич, November 04, 2011, 05:01:16 PM

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Майор Хаткевич

I have a "family" member, who is currently 20, and has a 2 year old son. He is not married, and does not have custody of the child, but pays child support.

He's been trying to get into the military, but when he tried the Navy, he claims that he was basically told that the only way to get in would be if he was married, because he has a kid. The same, more or less was told to him by the Air Force.

He's now trying the Army, seems they don't have the same issue.

My question for those with experience, I know right now is the "best" time for the military, because a lot of people try to get into the service, and they can be selective. But does that kind of feedback make sense? I know you can't be an Academy cadet with a dependent, but why wouldn't someone who is unmarried/divorced be allowed to join unless they get married?

Is it regulatory? Philosophy? Just trying to make sense of what he's hearing. Good kid, and don't want him to get an Army job he doesn't want/like because everywhere else seems to be closed off. (Not that I have anything against the Army, I just feel like he'd be joining for the wrong reasons).

His goals through out have been to become a LEO, and he wants to get an MP type job in the military.

Any advice/input is appreciated.

MSG Mac

The Military has been highly affected with a problem of having custodial parents become non-deployable due to not having someone to take care of the child during deployment. But this doesn't seem to be the case here. Has he informed them that he does not have custody of the child? In some cases of child support irregardless of where the child lives of even how far apart, the child support Decree might say joint custody and that may be the snag. He can always ask for a waiver of whatever regulation is being cited. 
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

lordmonar

The problem is the nature of the custody.

He is paying child support and I assume he has some sort of joint custody (even if it is for one day a month or something like that).

Being a single parent in the military puts a lot of extra burdens on the squadron and the member......the child care plan.

It is not practical to manage that while in straining status.....so....since the USAF is not hurting for recruits...they just say...sorry can't help you.

Now.....all things are waiverable.  But you have to find a recruiter who is willing to work with him to get it through the process.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Майор Хаткевич

#3
Quote from: MSG Mac on November 04, 2011, 05:11:22 PM
The Military has been highly affected with a problem of having custodial parents become non-deployable due to not having someone to take care of the child during deployment. But this doesn't seem to be the case here. Has he informed them that he does not have custody of the child? In some cases of child support irregardless of where the child lives of even how far apart, the child support Decree might say joint custody and that may be the snag. He can always ask for a waiver of whatever regulation is being cited.

They do not have a formal custody agreement. The child lives with the mother and her family. Would it be better IF he had something formal as opposed to *nothing* in that regard? Obviously wouldn't want to give up parental rights, but there's no chance the mother would let him have the child full time anyway. As I am young myself, I haven't encountered this issue before.

lordmonar

#4
Then the issue is that there is no formal agreement nor any formal plan.

Any waiver would have to include a plan on what whould happen to the child if for some reason he had to take custody (sickness, legal issue, accidents, natural disaster).

A basic Family Care plan has short term (you have to work the weekend or double shift for an exercise) and long term (you get deployed/go TDY).

Something like that would have to be put together.  Powers of Atternoy (sp?) for whoever (grand parents) may take care of the child during his training.  Money set aside for travel expenses and child care.

All of this is moot if you can't find a recruiter willing to work with you.  I would go that route first.  Once you find someone with the time to walk the waiver through...then it is just a matter of putting together the plan (and they are not really that hard) and sending it up.

On a related note.....he really needs to get a lawyer and make sure that he has all the custodial and child support issues take care of (down on paper).  It establishes his rights for custody, visitation and other issues that may come up later.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Майор Хаткевич

Lordmonar, exactly what I was looking for, and probably why he has so many issues. The Army recruiter seems to be willing to do this with him, but it's been my experience that they typically are the branch that will. I'll pass on the advice (the latter part already being common sense and something we've been telling him for a while that he needs to do), and hope he uses it wisely.


SARDOC

Quote from: lordmonar on November 04, 2011, 05:16:32 PM
Now.....all things are waiverable.  But you have to find a recruiter who is willing to work with him to get it through the process.

That is the Issue right there.  The Single parent with a dependent is a Waiverable issue.  If a Recruiter is on target for meeting their recruiting objectives they are less likely to assist or even tell a potential recruit that the process is waiverable.  The more pressure on the recruiter the more likely they are to work with you.  That's why the Army guy is a lot easier to work with.  Most will require that before you can even have a plan in place legally before they will even entertain a waiver.  Not just arrangements for TDY and Deployments but even in the event of Permanent Injury or death of the service member.  Not happy what the Navy Recruiter is telling you...Go See another Navy recruiter...repeat process until you find one that will help you.  Keep your options open.  As you get closer to the end of the month the more likely you are to find one...but then you get to MEPS and the job you want is no longer available...delicate balance.

Eclipse

20 years old with a two year old and no formal agreement.  Judge Judy would not be pleased.

Compounding poor life choices doesn't make things easier.

"That Others May Zoom"

johnnyb47

#8
Quote from: Eclipse on November 04, 2011, 07:34:11 PM
20 years old with a two year old and no formal agreement.  Judge Judy would not be pleased.

Compounding poor life choices doesn't make things easier.

Why is it that when I read this all I hear is "Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son." in my head?
(animal house reference for those too young to know :) )

I second the thought on speaking to multiple recruiters as well though. I've been thinking about going Navy Reserve since I'm too old with no prior service to sign up anywhere else. A couple of recruiters have written me off be a few are willing to work with me if I ever make up my mind.
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PHall

Quote from: Eclipse on November 04, 2011, 07:34:11 PM
20 years old with a two year old and no formal agreement.  Judge Judy would not be pleased.

Compounding poor life choices doesn't make things easier.

How would joining the military be a bad thing for this young man?  A steady paycheck would make it much easier for him to help support his kid.

Eclipse

Quote from: PHall on November 04, 2011, 08:05:26 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 04, 2011, 07:34:11 PM
20 years old with a two year old and no formal agreement.  Judge Judy would not be pleased.

Compounding poor life choices doesn't make things easier.

How would joining the military be a bad thing for this young man?  A steady paycheck would make it much easier for him to help support his kid.

Who said that?  It might be what he needs to straighten himself out, I was referring to the lack of formalized custody and support.
That's bad for him, but worse for his child.

"That Others May Zoom"

SARDOC

Quote from: john_Bowers on November 04, 2011, 08:02:52 PM
I second the thought on speaking to multiple recruiters as well though. I've been thinking about going Navy Reserve since I'm too old with no prior service to sign up anywhere else. A couple of recruiters have written me off be a few are willing to work with me if I ever make up my mind.
You can also try the Army National Guard...they will take non Prior service up until 40 years old.  Their educational benefits happen to be pretty good.  I'd recommend the Navy Reserve over the Guard...having been in both organizations.

titanII

Quote from: john_Bowers on November 04, 2011, 08:02:52 PM
Why is it that when I read this all I hear is "Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son." in my head?
(animal house reference for those too young to know :) )
;D
Don't worry, despite my teenage status, I completely understood the reference. But then, I'm probably not your average teenager  ;D
No longer active on CAP talk

davidsinn

Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

titanII

No longer active on CAP talk

flyboy53

#15
Something's missing from what the Air Force Recruiter must have said.

Having been a recruiter for seven years, I can tell you that being a single parent with a child and joining the Air Force isn't an issue as long as the dependency care plan is completed and a formal custody agreement in place. Sure, so a waiver has to be done...

All of that exists not to serve as a barrier to join, but more to protect the service member in case something happens to the custodial parent when the other biological parent is mobilized, especially overseas.

If I remember correctly, that child is still considered a dependent, and eligible for everything that goes with that status.

Besides, why not have a formal custody document in place...talk about something that could come back to bite you in the future. Don't let any recruiter talk him into something without all of that in place.

That said, if your family member is considering a career in law enforcement, he sould be talking to the Air Force Recruiter about Security Forces, and to join the ranks of blue berets that brought you Chuck Norris...long ago, he was an Air Force Security Policeman who served in Korea and California.

I can't tell you how many times, I've run into a former Air Force Security Forces member who is now a local or state cop. I even know one individual whose last assignment was Patrick AFB. He left the Air Force one day and was working for NASA the next, doing the same stuff.



lordmonar

Quote from: flyboy1 on November 05, 2011, 12:37:38 PM
Something's missing from what the Air Force Recruiter must have said.

Having been a recruiter for seven years, I can tell you that being a single parent with a child and joining the Air Force isn't an issue as long as the dependency care plan is completed and a formal custody agreement in place. Sure, so a waiver has to be done...

That's what's missing.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Flying Pig

#17
Sort of a side note.....

I remember when the Commandant of the Marine Corps when I was in, wanted one of the stipulations of intial enlistment in the Marines to model that of the French Foreign Legion.  Unmarried, no dependents for your first hitch.
As an NCO, I was all for it.  99% of my issues as a Plt Sgt or Sq Ldr was dealing with 18yr old E-2s with marital problems, financial and home problems.  Of course, the mothers of America wanted nothing of the sort. 

flyboy1
"That said, if your family member is considering a career in law enforcement, he sould be talking to the Air Force Recruiter about Security Forces, and to join the ranks of blue berets that brought you Chuck Norris...long ago, he was an Air Force Security Policeman who served in Korea and California".

As far as enlisting for LE.  If someone wants to be a cop, it doesnt matter a bit what job you enlist for, do something cool is what I tell guys!  However, if you do want to enlist for military LE, yes, join the AF. 

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: Flying Pig on November 05, 2011, 05:24:47 PM
Sort of a side note.....

I remember when the Commandant of the Marine Corps when I was in, wanted one of the stipulations of intial enlistment in the Marines to model that of the French Foreign Legion.  Unmarried, no dependents for your first hitch.
As an NCO, I was all for it.  99% of my issues as a Plt Sgt or Sq Ldr was dealing with 18yr old E-2s with marital problems, financial and home problems.  Of course, the mothers of America wanted nothing of the sort. 

Well frankly my experience when I was in the real Air Force, is even with couples both on active duty (same location) with children, there were issues with response times to alert recalls (back to the unit's/individual's duty station) even when they lived right on base.  Taking 2 to 3 hours to report, which at tops should be 1/2 hour or less if you live on base, is unacceptable >:(.  Problem was the kids and day care.   My guess is it's still a problem because you still have to staff the on base day care facility, so your hampered by the response time of those employees.     When you get into "single" active duty parent issue, than that it is even a bigger challenge, and from a recruiting standpoint why recruit "a problem" right from the start, when there's likely plenty of other qualified, less problematic individuals.
RM         
   

Private Investigator

Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 04, 2011, 05:01:16 PM
I have a "family" member, who is currently 20, and has a 2 year old son. He is not married, and does not have custody of the child, but pays child support.

Any advice/input is appreciated.

Talk to multiple recruiters. Recruiters do not know everything. Talk to the USAF recruiter at office "A" then jump in the car and drive to USAF recruiter at office "B". Most recruiters know the easy stuff, 18 and a HS diploma, you are good to go. Come in and tell them anything unusual and the majority gets flustered.

Another thing have him go to MEPS with an adult. I was there with my oldest daughter and 399 other recruits and only two other adults came to see what type of a contract their child will get.

flyboy53

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 10, 2011, 08:19:42 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 04, 2011, 05:01:16 PM
I have a "family" member, who is currently 20, and has a 2 year old son. He is not married, and does not have custody of the child, but pays child support.

Any advice/input is appreciated.

Talk to multiple recruiters. Recruiters do not know everything. Talk to the USAF recruiter at office "A" then jump in the car and drive to USAF recruiter at office "B". Most recruiters know the easy stuff, 18 and a HS diploma, you are good to go. Come in and tell them anything unusual and the majority gets flustered.

Another thing have him go to MEPS with an adult. I was there with my oldest daughter and 399 other recruits and only two other adults came to see what type of a contract their child will get.

MEPS has nothing to do with enlistment criteria. They are a joint-service command that specializes in testing, physicalling and processing individuals for initial active duty service.

You have a dependency criteria question, you ask the recuriter to get a clarification from his supervisor or up his chain of command. As a former recruiter (I wore a recruiting service hubcap for seven and a half years before retiring), I can tell you that dependency issues are the things of waivers that go up the chain of command for approval. I knew of some waivers that actually went as high as the Office of the Secretary of the Air Force.

You also don't go shopping around between recruiters of the same service. You might be painfully suprised to learn that they may have the same flight chief of supervisor, and may even be in the same squadron or group. Recruiters are trained to represent their military service and they have a frame of reference based on their own experiences, which is a good thing.

Dependency criteria, however, is a Department of Defense-wide policy based on what difficulties occur during mobilizations or casualties. The simplist solution here is for your family member to petition the family court and make things official. You have approached this dialog from the perspective of the family member and his goals, you're forgetting about the child in the middle and whether he may some day be a victim.

I can tell you, as a former recruiter, that the recruiter talking to your family member IS taking that child into consideration and being honest with what has to happen.

Майор Хаткевич

I'm not ignoring the child, I'm just addressing the issue head on. I'm baffled by his status with the mother and the child. They are either "not together" or apparently planning on getting married "someday". As someone who will be family as soon as I get married, I'd rather he had it all down on paper, but who knows. The Army recruiter is working with him, and he's going to MEPS this coming week. I've been passing along the advice from this thread, so he should at least be a bit more informed than he was.

Spaceman3750

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 10, 2011, 08:19:42 AMAnother thing have him go to MEPS with an adult. I was there with my oldest daughter and 399 other recruits and only two other adults came to see what type of a contract their child will get.

At the point they decide to enlist they are "adults". Their contract is their problem, not mommy and daddy - are their parents going to tag along to make sure the TIs aren't mean to them at Lackland too?

Private Investigator

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on November 10, 2011, 02:20:32 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on November 10, 2011, 08:19:42 AMAnother thing have him go to MEPS with an adult. I was there with my oldest daughter and 399 other recruits and only two other adults came to see what type of a contract their child will get.

At the point they decide to enlist they are "adults". Their contract is their problem, not mommy and daddy -

Never been in the military huh?

One young man said my recruiter said I am going to school to be an electrician, the processor said, "thats later, first you will go infantry as that is open today otherwise we can not get you in line for electrician." Now does that make sense? An 18 year old will believe that and say, "YES SIR!"

BTW, my ex was Recruiter of the Year and got the Commendation Medal for it at Recruiting Station Chicago.

lordmonar

PI....are you saying recruiters lie to recruits?!?!  >:D

I tell everyone who is instresting in enlisting......pick the job you want....tell the guy a MEPS.....if it is not open....walk out.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

flyboy53

#25
Quote from: lordmonar on November 11, 2011, 04:15:45 AM
PI....are you saying recruiters lie to recruits?!?!  >:D

I tell everyone who is instresting in enlisting......pick the job you want....tell the guy a MEPS.....if it is not open....walk out.

I won't dignify the first response, so PI and usafaux here's a little education for you about what a recruiter has to do...and this information is generally based on the Air Force.

Recruiters start by pre-qualifing an applicant based on basic critera just to get them through the door, so to say, and that includes basic stuff like dependency issues, trouble with the law and previous re-enlistment codes from other sevices. This is because all of that may require various waivers, which take time and are no guarantee that the applicant will even be accepted for enlistment or commissioning processing.

Did you know that a recruiter makes about 100 applicant contacts for every one individual who eventually enlists...kind of puts a whole new meaning about the "best and the brightest" our nation sends in harms way, doesn't it.

Active duty recruiters generally recruit by what's available in the week group that the applicant processes through MEPS or, in the case of the Guard and Reserve, by what specific vacancies exist on the unit manning document that the recruiter is essentially trying to fill. This aspect of an enlistment is further complicated by ASVAB, security clearance, and Physical Profile requirements for specific jobs.

If someone is processing for active duty, (and I'm speaking specficially what happens in the Air Force) they are given the option to pick a job several times while processing through MEPS and this is done by a recruiter who is acting as a career counselor. If the individual doesn't pick a job, he or she enters the military in an open contract and is given one more opportunity at basic to either select a job (which is generally what is left over from that week group) or apply for a special job/duty assignemnt....which used to be things like broadcaster, linguist, chaplain's assistant or pararescue.

If they don't pick a job or qualify for things like pararescue, they fulfill the needs of the Air Force and are given one of the week group vacancies that remain. NO ONE IS PINNING THEM TO A WALL AND TELLING THEM THEY HAVE TO ENLIST THEN. They can wait until the job is available. Physicals and ASVAB scores are good for several months. They can even initiate a request to process for another service.

In the case of a reservist or guardsman, they already have a specific job at enlistment and may have already met their supervisor or toured their duty section. You do know, an applicant can request to meet the individual, which most supervisors generally prefer because they don't want to babysit slugs.

In my own case, I entered the  Air Force to be a broadcaster and flunked the voice audition in basic training because I had a cold. I got orders for the Air Force Security Police Academy, later got injured in the line of duty, and ended up in Public Affairs anyway. The joke being that, I was originally destined for nuclear weapons security and as a deployable M-60 machinegun team member. Although I became medically disqualified, that background continued to follow me thoughtout my Air Force career and made me invaluable to security forces and public affairs and later even as a recruiter.

It's almost like I am forever and first a Security Forces member despite my limited time in the career field and what career broadening I later took, and I will never regret that.