Quote from: Quote from: jacob on Today at 08:06:29
I'd be all for that. I've seen similar proposals with BDUs a number of times - at least designing them. Never seen a grassroots effort to push proposals up the chain in every wing.
Well maybe it's time to start. They may not listen, but they will know that people support change.
If one person in each wing can agree to do this, and ask more local members to do it, at least 2-3 other people, you are already looking at 200+ proposals at wing level.
I'm going to accept that challenge. I'm going to start an adhoc single purpose CAPTalk uniform committee to send a proposal up in as many wings as possible for the winter boards.
I need four volunteers:
At least one photoshop warrior
And at least one decent writer
and two other people with a good imagination and decent Google-fu.
This committee will take the gray and whites and professionalize them. We will
not be trying to bring back the CSU as I feel that is a lost cause at this point. We will maintain the basic concept of the uniform (aviator shirt and gray pants) and try and find standards to apply to it to make them the same throughout CAP. I'd also like to add missing items to it such as headgear and a real uniform jacket. This is where photoshop will come in.
The output of this committee will be a PDF file that will be distributed on this forum so that members may submit it up the chain of command for the winter boards.
Although I don't like the blazer uniform we will not recommend it's demise as it does fill a purpose. We will leave the polo uniform in the uniform closet but may tweak it to use the same pants as the aviator uniform or specify optional gray BDU pants for field use. This committee will not address any AF style uniform.
I intend to take the gray and white to the same standard of professionalism that the CSU had but not make the same mistakes that where made in it's implementation and to propose a complete uniform system that will work in nearly all climates.
Who's with me? ;D
While I applaud the idea of trying to make this uniform standard. I would suggest start small with this idea.
For now just stream line the current regs so a particular shade and style of grey pant. Adding the headgear ok. But for now hold off on a service coat. Maybe tackle that next time.
Quote from: Angus on November 11, 2009, 04:11:42 PM
While I applaud the idea of trying to make this uniform standard. I would suggest start small with this idea.
For now just stream line the current regs so a particular shade and style of grey pant. Adding the headgear ok. But for now hold off on a service coat. Maybe tackle that next time.
When would be the next time?
The Grays aren't a uniform, just something presentable at this time.
Quote from: Angus on November 11, 2009, 04:11:42 PM
While I applaud the idea of trying to make this uniform standard. I would suggest start small with this idea.
For now just stream line the current regs so a particular shade and style of grey pant. Adding the headgear ok. But for now hold off on a service coat. Maybe tackle that next time.
If I finish the uniform out completely then it shouldn't need to be revisited for a very long time yet to come. I'm trying to calm the masses that are rightfully cranky that their professional looking uniform was killed, not torque of the AF and stay pretty close to what we have now. To do that I need to have the same things the CSU had but make it different enough that the AF shouldn't have an issue with it.
Quote from: davidsinn on November 11, 2009, 04:31:05 PM
Quote from: Angus on November 11, 2009, 04:11:42 PM
While I applaud the idea of trying to make this uniform standard. I would suggest start small with this idea.
For now just stream line the current regs so a particular shade and style of grey pant. Adding the headgear ok. But for now hold off on a service coat. Maybe tackle that next time.
If I finish the uniform out completely then it shouldn't need to be revisited for a very long time yet to come. I'm trying to calm the masses that are rightfully cranky that their professional looking uniform was killed, not torque of the AF and stay pretty close to what we have now. To do that I need to have the same things the CSU had but make it different enough that the AF shouldn't have an issue with it.
And standard pants are easy enough to do. I believe Vanguard stocks the aviator shirts already, same can be done with a prescribed gray pant.
I've pretty much got a plan in mind. I just need people to bounce it off of and to help me polish it up so that it has a better chance of gaining traction.
I'm game.
I'll help.
Quote from: arajca on November 11, 2009, 05:32:06 PM
I'll help.
Two. Either of you a photoshop ranger by chance?
I write pretty well
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on November 11, 2009, 05:35:00 PM
I write pretty well
Three. I'm looking for a photogeek now.
Well I said I'd be all for it in the other thread, so I'm in! :) I'm a good writer and editor.
I concur with NOT trying to bring back the CSU - the politics attached to that uniform hamper it too much. I also agree with adding headgear and pants to the grey and white uniform now vice later - the constant state of change is one of the complaints, so why introduce more phases of change than necessary?
Besides disregarding any AF style uniform for this proposal, I think we should also leave field uniforms alone with the exception of proposing a field variant of the polo uniform. While I personally feel we should have one single field uniform system (BDU-equivalents and a flight suit), one single dress uniform system (which would mean no blazer combination), and the polo shirt (an inexpensive / informal / starter option), pushing for any of that right now will not help advance the purpose of this proposal - namely, to professionalize the grey and whites.
I have some good ideas for the polo combination based on the Maryland Defense Force's civilian uniform.
Kudos to you Lt Sinn for taking this on!
OK that's 4. I can handle the Photoshop work although it won't be as pretty as it could be. The working group is formed although if someone is good with photoshoping they're more than welcome to help on a part time basis
I think we tried this here once before, and I know Pylon was on the committee. Should be a lot of ideas and reference materials around to help you not reinvent the wheel. My only suggestion would be to switch from grey pants to khaki pants for the polo since grey can be hard to find.
Quote from: Al Sayre on November 11, 2009, 05:58:41 PM
I think we tried this here once before, and I know Pylon was on the committee. Should be a lot of ideas and reference materials around to help you not reinvent the wheel. My only suggestion would be to switch from grey pants to khaki pants for the polo since grey can be hard to find.
Khaki would look nice if it were standard. However, with my idea you'd wear the same standard pants with both uniforms and it would match the new service jacket. I'm also thinking about optional gray BDU pants if you wish to wear the polo in an operational environment.
I know some Photoshop, not sure if it will be enough for this, but I can help out.
I'd be more than happy to write up the descriptions and specifications for this uniform; while I'm a drafter by trade, my Photoshop skills suck pond water.
Squiddies brought back their khaki service dress uniform after nearly 40 years of hibernation; if we have a similar-cut uniform but in medium gray with the AF blue flight cap and/or service cap it might be the best of both worlds. I'll have to do some research.
The khaki (also called suntans) with the blue Air Force Caps looks good. Catch Strategic Air Command with Jimmy Stewart on AMC or is it TCM one night and you'll see it. The uniform was beloved by the Air Corps/Air Force and chosen by Hap Arnold and John Curry as the uniform that they wanted to be buried in. And, so they were.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 11, 2009, 06:34:15 PM
while I'm a drafter by trade, my Photoshop skills suck pond water.
Hi twin. ;D I do mechanical drafting on AutoCAD what's your field and tool of choice.
Quote from: Smithsonia on November 11, 2009, 06:41:38 PM
The khaki (also called suntans) with the blue Air Force Caps looks good. Catch Strategic Air Command with Jimmy Stewart on AMC or is it TCM one night and you'll see it. The uniform was beloved by the Air Corps/Air Force and chosen by Hap Arnold and John Curry as the uniform that they wanted to be buried in. And, so they were.
Not trying to divert from Lieutenant Sinn's experimental project done with noble intent, but I would support this over trying to standardise the grey/whites. Only my opinion, but I just have a hard time associating grey with aviation in the way blue has been ever since the Royal Air Force became an independent service with a blue uniform almost 100 years ago.
The only "air force" type uniform I can think of in grey was the former East German Air Force, which was basically their grey Army uniform with blue piping and rank insignia.
http://www.tridentmilitary.com/New-Photos9/tn21b.jpg
No offence intended to those who do like the grey/white.
A lot of older AF types still remember the "silvertans" (shade 193) fondly. I'd go for an updated version of that.
My suggestions:
Blue three-line nameplate
Go back to pewter-shade metal appurtenances (wings, etc)
Blue rank slides with embroidered "CAP" (CAP cutouts on collar for SMWOG, metal pin-on chevrons for NCO's).
Current CAP "overseas" patch on left sleeve
Dark blue web belt, distinctive buckle with CAP crest
Tan flight cap with blue piping (I'd prefer the blue flight cap, but I'm trying to have minimal AF uniform items
Dark blue AF tie
Tan "Ike"-type jacket as a service coat, zip-up front, hidden button pocket flaps
"CAP" on each lapel
"Overseas" patch on left shoulder
Blue CAP rank slides
Cloth sleeve chevrons for NCO's
It would be a nod to our history, it would look good, and I don't see any way it would ruffle the AF's feathers since it wouldn't be using any of their uniform items (tie and belt aside). Other than the three-line nameplate, it wouldn't mention anything about the Air Force.
http://usafflagranks.com/usaf_service_dress_ike_jacket.html
By the way, I can watch "Strategic Air Command" over and over...and, occasionally, you can see Tony Nelson wearing silvertans on "I Dream Of Jeannie." :D
OK, Lieutenant, back to your grey/white project...sorry for the interruption...
I wear the AF style uniforms most of the time, so this is not directly from me. I do have a polo shirt and nice medium gray dress slacks. I will comment based on other senior members comments in my squadron. Take this "hearsay" as you will.
I know one female that chose the gray/white over the blues because there was no hat/hair requirement. She doesn't want to wear a hat.
I don't like the fact that every one wears a different shade and material of gray pants, but if you make an official uniform pants, then the cost will double. I got my gray pants on sale at JC Pennys. One could go broke dealing with CAP, so I like the non-standard gray pants. I buy my airline pilot "uniform" pants at JC Pennys too. It saves me about $60 per pants and no one knows the difference. ;D
I do like the Ike jacket but think of the reason the AF gave for not liking the white and blues....That's why an Ike wouldn't work. I'm gonna stick with a standard jacket.
Quote from: davidsinn on November 11, 2009, 07:27:44 PM
I do like the Ike jacket but think of the reason the AF gave for not liking the white and blues....That's why an Ike wouldn't work. I'm gonna stick with a standard jacket.
Even a
tan Ike jacket?
Nowadays, how many associate that with the AF?
We'd more likely be confused with the California Highway Patrol... :D
But, what about a tan Service Dress coat?
http://usafflagranks.com/usaf_service_dress_ike_jacket.html
Quote from: CyBorg on November 11, 2009, 07:31:01 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on November 11, 2009, 07:27:44 PM
I do like the Ike jacket but think of the reason the AF gave for not liking the white and blues....That's why an Ike wouldn't work. I'm gonna stick with a standard jacket.
Even a tan Ike jacket?
Nowadays, how many associate that with the AF?
We'd more likely be confused with the California Highway Patrol... :D
But, what about a tan Service Dress coat?
http://usafflagranks.com/usaf_service_dress_ike_jacket.html
It's not the color that's the problem. Think of a very fat guy in an Ike jacket. That's something you can never un-see. And now you are going to go try and poke out your minds eye >:D
Wrong link, actually, my bad...I meant to illustrate a non-Ike silvertan service dress.
http://usafflagranks.com/usaf_summer_service_dress_coat.html
One of the problems with uniformity in the gray-white uniform is the lack of sizes in pants and shirts. Some of our members need a "full" cut while others need a slim or tailored cut. Same for pants, double pleated don't look good on full figures, while slim guys look great in double-pleats. You are going to need to address these issues and you might as well do it up front..
Quote from: AirAux on November 11, 2009, 07:41:36 PM
One of the problems with uniformity in the gray-white uniform is the lack of sizes in pants and shirts. Some of our members need a "full" cut while others need a slim or tailored cut. Same for pants, double pleated don't look good on full figures, while slim guys look great in double-pleats. You are going to need to address these issues and you might as well do it up front..
Keep pointing this stuff out. I'm taking notes.
Does anyone else but me think that it is somewhat unfortunate that this uniform (primarily worn by those that are overweight) features a white shirt given the general view that darker colors are "slimming"? The simple fact is that there is no way to make someone that is obese look good in a tucked-in shirt. Now, you could hide a lot more with an approved jacket for this uniform...
In any case, I am in favor of the standardization of the gray pants for both this and the polo shirt and the rest being proposed seems like a good idea.
I agree with River and just keep thinking of the 300 pound EMT guy in white shirt with gray pants, with his belly sticking out. The bad thing is that white shirts also show food spills like crazy along with sweat stains. Not a pretty sight huh?? I don't know what the answer is, but how about a jacket like Jackie Gleason wore as a bus driver in the Honeymooners? Kind of like an Ike Jacket, but it didn't look bad on a fat guy??
Quote from: AirAux on November 11, 2009, 07:55:25 PM
...The bad thing is that white shirts also show food spills like crazy along with sweat stains.
and why would people be walking around in a sweat stained food spilled shirt? That in itself is a violation of our uniform regulations regardless of what uniform you wear...
I wouldn't exactly design a uniform based on the ability to hide powdered sugar or spaghetti sauce...
for a formal ocasion an IKE type jacket is a no go....... lets keep it with todays fashion........
The problem is that todays fashions are not designed for 250 pound field grade 60 year old officers. The guys and girls in shape can wear AF Blue. So what can we offer to the members needing the gray-white??
Quote from: davidsinn on November 11, 2009, 06:01:35 PM
Quote from: Al Sayre on November 11, 2009, 05:58:41 PM
I think we tried this here once before, and I know Pylon was on the committee. Should be a lot of ideas and reference materials around to help you not reinvent the wheel. My only suggestion would be to switch from grey pants to khaki pants for the polo since grey can be hard to find.
There are people who already wear the grey BDU pants with the polo.
Khaki would look nice if it were standard. However, with my idea you'd wear the same standard pants with both uniforms and it would match the new service jacket. I'm also thinking about optional gray BDU pants if you wish to wear the polo in an operational environment.
Gray BDU trousers are about the only way you'll get everyone in the Aviator Shirt crowd wearing the same color gray. They wouldn't look as good as my Haggar slacks which look more like corporate office attire. I'm for throwing in a New uniform option. How about blue BDU trousers with the polo? That would work good for a Ground Team. They would look uniform. If I could talk with CAP/USAF I would politely make the case that the TPU / CSU makes the wearer look more professional. In the corporate environment I work in no one wears anything less than dress attire. There's no common color code for dress gray slacks which means things will stay the same as they've have been for the aviator shirt crowd. If I were the decision maker for the AF my choice would be to back time up a week and just leave things alone. Why bother with eliminating the CSU if in most places you don't have the CAP along side the AF folks on a daily basis. I wonder how the AF folks felt back in the days before all this corporate uniform stuff began. Long timers I know tell me the relationship was much better back in the 80s. The effort to drive everyone into gray will fail. Whatever Vanguard comes up with for gray slacks will be hard sell.
Let's throw the folks a bone - keep the black windbreaker, overcoat, and sweater. Just change the grade insignia to the grey epaulet slides.
Ok, Here's my team:
RogueLeader
arajca
Trung Si Ma
jacob
USAFaux2004
I've got jacob and arajca in the yahoo group already. I need the other three to please join and we'll get this party started. ;D
Quote from: Smithsonia on November 11, 2009, 06:41:38 PM
The khaki (also called suntans) with the blue Air Force Caps looks good. Catch Strategic Air Command with Jimmy Stewart on AMC or is it TCM one night and you'll see it. The uniform was beloved by the Air Corps/Air Force and chosen by Hap Arnold and John Curry as the uniform that they wanted to be buried in. And, so they were.
Yep - my dad wore it as did just about everyone else. It's a good looking uniform, doesn't bear even the closest resemblance to the current AF wear, and could be easily updated with modern fabrics. Remember, CAP used to wear this back in the 50s.
Ike jackets are a no-go. You need a waist line for it. No patches, please. We're past that stage. Going back to the CAP buttons (not the shiney stuff but the buttons we wore starting about 1967: similar to the AF buttons of the day but with the CAP crest in the middle.) Going back to satin finished cutouts, badges, and wings would look good on this.
^^^ That would be a great uniform, but theres obviously the issue of cost as well as having to come up with new cutouts that look like they belong on that uniform. I dont see the NB jumping through hoops for that idea. Still a good uniform idea if for some reason we end up loosing the AF uniform though.
Quote from: Gunner C on November 12, 2009, 02:42:59 AM
Quote from: Smithsonia on November 11, 2009, 06:41:38 PM
The khaki (also called suntans) with the blue Air Force Caps looks good. Catch Strategic Air Command with Jimmy Stewart on AMC or is it TCM one night and you'll see it. The uniform was beloved by the Air Corps/Air Force and chosen by Hap Arnold and John Curry as the uniform that they wanted to be buried in. And, so they were.
Yep - my dad wore it as did just about everyone else. It's a good looking uniform, doesn't bear even the closest resemblance to the current AF wear, and could be easily updated with modern fabrics. Remember, CAP used to wear this back in the 50s.
Ike jackets are a no-go. You need a waist line for it. No patches, please. We're past that stage. Going back to the CAP buttons (not the shiney stuff but the buttons we wore starting about 1967: similar to the AF buttons of the day but with the CAP crest in the middle.) Going back to satin finished cutouts, badges, and wings would look good on this.
Let's try to minimize costs by not changing all the insignia as well. We have bright shineys now, lets keep them.
Good call (but I still have mine, tho) ;D
Quote from: davidsinn on November 11, 2009, 06:42:47 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 11, 2009, 06:34:15 PM
while I'm a drafter by trade, my Photoshop skills suck pond water.
Hi twin. ;D I do mechanical drafting on AutoCAD what's your field and tool of choice.
AutoCAD's been my weapon of choice since Release 10 for DOS. I've done all sorts of drafting and design disciplines; architectural, civil, mechanical, electrical, etc. I currently do electrical and P&ID drawings upgrading the capabilities of the space surveillance tracking radars and optics here on Kwajalein.
My $0.02:
- Change the tie to black to match the belt
- Keep the leather A-2, sweater(s), lightweight jacket and overcoat black, switch from the knit-collar Army officer style lightweight jacket to the traditional collar Army enlisted style, as it matches the AF-style jacket more closely.
- Authorize a black nylon CWU-45/P-style flight jacket.
- Change the nametag on the A-2 back to black-on-black.
- For the whites/grays, specify a military-style black web belt with chrome military-style buckle and tip (this is already available from Vanguard, I believe it's a Navy item.) and the same footwear optionss as for AF-style service dress. Keep civilian belts/shoes for the polo shirt option.
- For the whites/grays, either specified headgear (i.e., a gray flight cap) is worn or none at all. I can't stand the sight of people wearing baseball caps (or worse, boonie hats) with a business-style uniform.
- I'm on the fence regarding pants for the polo shirt to be khaki or gray. Either way, I like the option of BDU pants or similar tactical equivalent (thinking Propper/5.11 civilian tactical pant) for operational (flying/field) wear. I do NOT like the idea of authorizing blue BDU pants with the polo shirt as any color mismatch will be glaringly apparent.
What about black pants for uniformity, cost, and availability instead of gray?
Notice the "Grey and White"
I know what you mean, and I was thinking of that my self. it really would make things simpler as specifying "Black" comapered to "medium grey"
Quote from: AirAux on November 12, 2009, 03:47:26 PM
What about black pants for uniformity, cost, and availability instead of gray?
Gray is already in use.
how about a standardized medium gray police style uniform pant, a navy blue service dress jacket with gray epaulet sleeves and a navy blue service cap or flight cap with a navy blue tie. Substitute CAP buttons for PD buttons. Not only would this uniform look great, all components are rack items and wouldn't require special orders
Quote from: cap235629 on November 12, 2009, 09:31:20 PM
how about a standardized medium gray police style uniform pant, a navy blue service dress jacket with gray epaulet sleeves and a navy blue service cap or flight cap with a navy blue tie. Substitute CAP buttons for PD buttons. Not only would this uniform look great, all components are rack items and wouldn't require special orders
1) Your proposal just basically recreates the CSU.
2) CAP fat and fuzzies looking semi-USAF-like is purported to be a sore spot for the USAF (which personally I don't buy).
3) CAP looking like an LEA isn't going to help matters on the Posse Comm side.
Quote from: AirAux on November 12, 2009, 03:47:26 PM
What about black pants for uniformity, cost, and availability instead of gray?
There are many shades of "black" as well - perhaps not as many as there are of "medium grey", but still enough to look non-uniform.
The USN has a new service dress khaki uniform: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:New_service_dress_khaki.jpg . I am unaware if it is just a proposal/test at this point, or if it has been approved. I'd think we'd want to stay away from anything that too closely resembles that as well.
At some point there are only so many distinct colors and styles of dress, and unless we're going to start wearing Starfleet-style tunics or Imperial Armor, we're going to look like somebody (which, by the way, is kinda the point).
I've always been partial to these:
(http://www.roddenberry.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/P/T/PTN001.png)
And even these would be a great fit and already have a flight suit and BDU variant:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/licinius/bgs321.jpg)
As far as the expense, I'd be willing to bet 1/2 the membership already owns one of these, however now the C&D's would come from Paramount and Lucasfilm instead of NHQ.
I have done some work with photoshop but I am not the best at it by any means. I can help and do what I can
JC
Eclipse - that has always been my favorite Starfleet uniform as well! ;D
Waaaay too Navy.
Just go back to Pinks with the Red Braid.....Then no Issues with looking like the AF. But I think that the CSU was dumped because the Army went to Blue and White. The Army Dress Green will be gone as of 2014. The Pinks are a Heritage Uniform as well.
I agree with those suggesting khakis/suntans.
I could happily continue to live with gray/white. I would like tos ee some sort of optional military-style dress jacket and hat.
Quote from: tarheel gumby on November 13, 2009, 04:58:58 AM
Just go back to Pinks with the Red Braid.....Then no Issues with looking like the AF. But I think that the CSU was dumped because the Army went to Blue and White. The Army Dress Green will be gone as of 2014. The Pinks are a Heritage Uniform as well.
I wouldn't say no to Pinks and Greens, especially if a "crush cap" was allowed. :D
Quote from: jacob on November 13, 2009, 02:55:09 AM
The USN has a new service dress khaki uniform: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:New_service_dress_khaki.jpg . I am unaware if it is just a proposal/test at this point, or if it has been approved. I'd think we'd want to stay away from anything that too closely resembles that as well.
It doesn't really look new, except for the unpleated pockets. It looks a lot like the tan uniform the USN (and USCG) wore during WWII.
But, for a flight of fancy, imagine that uniform with a modified version of the mess dress shoulder boards for CAP.
Quote from: jacob on November 13, 2009, 02:55:09 AM
The USN has a new service dress khaki uniform: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:New_service_dress_khaki.jpg . I am unaware if it is just a proposal/test at this point, or if it has been approved. I'd think we'd want to stay away from anything that too closely resembles that as well.
It's already approved for wear in the navy by officers and CPOs. ADM Mullen regularly wears the khaki service dress.
If you change out the gold Squiddie buttons and replace them with CAP bright finish (preferably satin-finish) silver blouse buttons, add the dark blue sleeve braid and blue bus driver hat, you'd have a distinctive uniform - however, methinks the Squiddies are not going to let CAP hijack their khakis.
I wouldn't wear it on a dare, and I'm retired Navy.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 13, 2009, 03:20:03 AM
And even these would be a great fit and already have a flight suit and BDU variant:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/licinius/bgs321.jpg)
As far as the expense, I'd be willing to bet 1/2 the membership already owns one of these, however now the C&D's would come from Paramount and Lucasfilm instead of NHQ.
The Colonial Fleet Dress Uniform only cost $199 :)
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/AdamaCAPCol.jpg)
Hm...the metal grade still might look like we are trying to be real officers.
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/AdamaCAPColgray.jpg)
There! The good ol' gray slides.
Yes, please...
Quote from: Eclipse on November 13, 2009, 03:28:13 PM
Yes, please...
Heh, I'm more interested in the flight suits that can keep someone alive in space.
ROFL re: the Battlestar uniforms.
Grey seems to be the way to go for a CAP distinctive, IMHO. There is precedence for it, works with existing epaulets, etc. As far as differing shades of grey all that is needed is to specify a certain shade or actual trouser. There are plenty of uniform shops selling grey trousers, even shirts. Throw in black coats and away you go. Dress coats? Haven't seen them in grey or black (usually navy) but I bet they are out there somewhere. Navy blue might look fine with grey trousers and a white or grey shirt.
We wouldn't look like anyone else, at least military. If you gotta go Corporate and want to have a dress uniform, there aren't many options.
Quote from: wuzafuzz on November 13, 2009, 03:51:25 PMDress coats? Haven't seen them in grey or black (usually navy) but I bet they are out there somewhere.
Plenty of PD and FD wear black service coats - lots of sources in style which would not be confused w/ USAF but would make us look more uniform.
Slipped my mind that USN had restored "heritage" khaki uniforms...so, we're back to gray!
Quote from: ZigZag911 on November 13, 2009, 05:39:48 PM
Slipped my mind that USN had restored "heritage" khaki uniforms...so, we're back to gray!
Why is grey the inevitable "fall-back?" I can see why the grey shoulder marks would be already established, but as has been pointed out, there is nothing standard about the grey trousers.
Why not ultramarine blue, or would that be too garish, like the Smurf suit?
Full gray uniforms have never been a standard American uniform color, at least in the last 150 years... and I am supposing that has to do with Confederate States, German WW1 and 2 and Chinese Korean War uniforms were all gray. So that kinda makes Gray the bad guys.
The exception is West Point Cadet Gray -- But that color choice predates all of the instances above.
For history - our first uniform was greens and khakis during WW2. Greens and khakis have been abandoned by the Army in favor of their new blue dress uniform. I am not arguing for greens just pointing out the option.
Quote from: CyBorg on November 13, 2009, 11:18:41 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on November 13, 2009, 05:39:48 PM
Slipped my mind that USN had restored "heritage" khaki uniforms...so, we're back to gray!
Why is grey the inevitable "fall-back?" I can see why the grey shoulder marks would be already established, but as has been pointed out, there is nothing standard about the grey trousers.
Why not ultramarine blue, or would that be too garish, like the Smurf suit?
Ultramarine blue would be entirely too harsh.
Grey, blue, and black are the traditional business suit colors. Blue is out - too close to the AF. Black is out - too close to the navy. That leaves grey.
Quote from: arajca on November 14, 2009, 01:37:30 AM
Grey, blue, and black are the traditional business suit colors. Blue is out - too close to the AF. Black is out - too close to the navy. That leaves grey.
A blue coat with grey pants or a black coat with grey pants are also both good combinations created from those color options.
Quote from: arajca on November 14, 2009, 01:37:30 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 13, 2009, 11:18:41 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on November 13, 2009, 05:39:48 PM
Slipped my mind that USN had restored "heritage" khaki uniforms...so, we're back to gray!
Why is grey the inevitable "fall-back?" I can see why the grey shoulder marks would be already established, but as has been pointed out, there is nothing standard about the grey trousers.
Why not ultramarine blue, or would that be too garish, like the Smurf suit?
Ultramarine blue would be entirely too harsh.
Grey, blue, and black are the traditional business suit colors. Blue is out - too close to the AF. Black is out - too close to the navy. That leaves grey.
I think we could become a bit too paranoid about blue of any kind just because of what happened with the CSU.
The Air Force doesn't have proprietary rights over every shade of blue uniform in the book. Otherwise, airline uniforms would all be grey, green, whatever.
A blue-grey, similar to the RAF/Commonwealth, might be a good compromise between blue and grey.
http://tinyurl.com/RAFBLUE
There is slight precedent for this, as Americans in the RAF/RCAF wore this shade during WWII.
Or go even darker than the USAF, but not blue-black like the Navy, similar to what the Australians and French use:
http://tinyurl.com/FRENCHAF
(I have an Ike-type jacket from the French AF in my collection...the blue is quite distinct from the USAF)
http://tinyurl.com/RAAFBLUE
Blue has been traditional for aviators since WWI...I don't think it's a good idea to can it just because of being afraid that the USAF may have the same reaction to it as they did to the CSU, especially if it is distinctively badged (and cut) as a CAP uniform.
PLEASE GOD NO MORE UNIFORMS
I don't recall reading this idea in this thread:
Keep the current grey/white combo, but add the CSU jacket with grey slides, AF blue tie, and current CSU headgear options. Simple and cost effective while adding clear distinction from the AF uniform.
Quote from: wingnut55 on November 14, 2009, 06:46:12 AM
PLEASE GOD NO MORE UNIFORMS
I tend to agree with you. The greys the way they are now are not perfect, but are very cost effective for the new member. HOWEVER, I agree that there's a lot of interpretation on the shade of grey pants, which leads to somewhat different colors. Add a short & long sleeve golf shirt to your wardrobe and you are ready for just about any mission base duties that need to be done.
One of the biggest challenges I see with CAP uniform wear (especially the AF type uniforms) is it's very easy to be out of compliance. Perfect example is cadets (and seniors) wearing non military coats over the uniform in winter because military jackets are very expensive.
The whites with grey are a very simple uniform for indoor CAP activities.
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on November 14, 2009, 03:19:04 PMPerfect example is cadets (and seniors) wearing non military coats over the uniform in winter because military jackets are very expensive.
They're not that expensive. I've seen both seniors and cadets showing up wearing jackets that easily cost twice what the appropriate military ones would cost.
I will agree that some types of outergarments should be expressly permitted to deal with some of the much colder areas of the country. In Alaska, military parkas were available that were actually pretty inexpensive compared to some of the fancy stuff that people would buy.
Even in the military, people wore everyday thermal unders to deal with the cold. There are ways to adapt.
Quote from: tarheel gumby on November 13, 2009, 04:58:58 AM
Just go back to Pinks with the Red Braid.....Then no Issues with looking like the AF. But I think that the CSU was dumped because the Army went to Blue and White. The Army Dress Green will be gone as of 2014. The Pinks are a Heritage Uniform as well.
I just got the word that the Army is Dumping the Greens as 1st quater of 2010. That may be the source of all of this angst.
As to my solution for the grey and white combo...
1 A Uniform Shade of Grey
2 Black/ Blue Clinch tip belt with brushed or polished silver finish
3 Same foot wear as for the AF style uniform
4 Grey Flight cap with the same braid as on the blue one
5 black outer garments same as authorized for the CSU.
I don't think that we need a dress version of this at this time.
That would present a more uniform and professional appearence without looking like we have lost our buses.
Quote from: jacob on November 13, 2009, 02:55:09 AM
The USN has a new service dress khaki uniform: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:New_service_dress_khaki.jpg . I am unaware if it is just a proposal/test at this point, or if it has been approved. I'd think we'd want to stay away from anything that too closely resembles that as well.
Don't forget that the Navy also has black pants on one of its uniforms too.
Quote from: Pumbaa on November 14, 2009, 07:40:59 PM
Quote from: jacob on November 13, 2009, 02:55:09 AM
The USN has a new service dress khaki uniform: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:New_service_dress_khaki.jpg . I am unaware if it is just a proposal/test at this point, or if it has been approved. I'd think we'd want to stay away from anything that too closely resembles that as well.
Don't forget that the Navy also has black pants on one of its uniforms too.
As do many other agencies.
I believe that to be a concern only if the wearer is trying to look like the Navy, or another service wearing the Naval uniform (USPHS, NOAA) in an authorised manner. As far as I know, the Navy doesn't have a problem with USPHS or NOAA wearing "their" uniform.
Or, for that matter, the AF doesn't have issues with the USCG (and Auxiliary) wearing some AF uniform items.
You know, I once posted a "What would your "Dream Uniform" for a CP Look like?" (the question being "
What would, if you had the power to do it, your Cadet Program uniforms look like?" with rules for debate, submission and discussion) on CADETSTUFF sometime around 29 Jun 2008, and do you know what I was told?
From MUSTANG...
QuoteMajor, no one else is saying it, so I will: You gotta be kidding.
QuoteSpeaking on my own behalf (though I don't doubt many others are of the same mentality), an exercise for the sake of exercise is pretty much wasted time that few of us have. There's been no reason to suspect that CAP needs to come up with a Cadet Programs-specific uniform. So what's the dealy-o, man? This is not Versace's online gallery of fashion proposals. While well-intentioned, bear in mind that many in these threads have pleaded to the point of near insanity for people to focus less on uniforms and more on substance, lest we perpetuate a shallow program.
Then...
QuoteSpeaking on my own behalf (though I don't doubt many others are of the same mentality), dreaming up uniforms or finding ways to squeeze in a service cap isn't really entertainment for most (at least I strongly suspect). It's effort that for me, could easily be spent elsewhere (and you can bet that in some official capacity, my opinion gets enforced). Cadet majors or senior member majors all can be doing more beneficial things on behalf of the cadet program than entertaining themselves (and subtracting productive minutes from one's day) by doodling pictures of uniforms. Harsh? Perhaps.
continuing on with...
QuoteSpeaking on my own behalf (though I don't doubt many others are of the same mentality), Good Lord, man; why would you dream stuff up, with all the time associated for such an effort, if you don't support it? Please come over and help me with my lawn...I'm hosting a party tomorrow and if you've that sort of free time, I'll put you to good use. Might even give you a Coke if you work for it.
Phall wrote...
QuoteWhy do you feel the need to "reinvent the wheel" by designing a new uniform?
...and then...
Quote1. CAP is already way too obsessed over uniform stuff. A mental exercise is on this topic is at minimum unproductive, and really leans toward counter-productive. Monty has raised some great points about this.
Now, I imagine times have changed (that thread got an 11 month jump where people were less vitriolic) but why did no one here jump all over this in a same manner. This, and a few e-mails and PMs that were less than cordial and downright condescending, were the order of the day.
These included little gems like...
QuoteJoe, i'm actually not big into personally trashing people in plain view of the public. For me though, honestly I can't see spending a lot of time daydreaming about imaginary clothing and accessory possibilities when there is so much work to do in actually teaching youth some actual life and leadership skills. And if you think you're already doing a fine job at that, there's an even larger task of equipping other adults to go forth and do the same.
and...
QuoteSo I guess all i'm saying is that i'd rather see your time, abilities, and effort (which you clearly have) applied toward something that actually matters. I know the cadets in your sphere of influence would benefit greatly from that too. And I suspect, over time, so would you!
Then more on my "reputation..."
QuoteAs I said, in my assessment, you have a reputation with some of the people here. If you're unhappy with that reputation, you are the only one who can change it. Whether you're willing to do so is up to you, else adopt a "screw y'all" attitude and go on with your day. sup to you.
After that, and a few issues where cadet parents in my unit came saying that their children were treated less than professionally by known well known threadsters, I decided to end my regular postings on CADETSTUFF.
Just thought I would point out that there must have been some change in the air to warrant the continuation of this thread while I was lambasted in that one. Seems as if the best thing to do is not to design any new uniforms.
By the way, the "rules" were as followed...
Quote1) Submissions must be in the form of drawings (images that can be posted)
2) Do not post exisiting uniforms/uniform images (for copyright reasons), or uniforms/uniform images from popular shows (Star Trek/Star Wars/et al) and say that is what you want to look like.
3) You cannot comment on any uniform proposal unless A) you have posted an idea yourself, B) PM'ed the originator, C) have a valid point/additional image that will add to the idea
4) Do not post to "make fun" of people's artwork or ideas
5) You can have several sets of uniform (Dress, Field)
6) You can have someone else draw if for you, only give them credit.
Sparky
The more things change the more they stay the same my friend.
My personal opinion is CAP should get out of the military uniform (at least for seniors) PERIOD. There are enough 'uniforms' that can be adopted quickly with minimal costs, that would not "P" off mama blue.
My suggestion, Black "BDU" pants and a light color polo with insignia and name/rank on it. Otherwise a khaki "BDU" pant, with dark polo. Black 'Rocky'/'Bates' style footwear.
For formals, why not just standardize on a business suit? Black or Navy Blue... No need for all the bling.
Now for those who complain that those working with cadets should be in uniform. First.. It is a Cadet program, the cadets run it with GUIDANCE from the seniors. Cadets do not need to see seniors running around in an AF uniform.
Look at a kids football team, basketball etc... Now look at the coach(s)... is he in the same uniform as the kids? Can you figure out who is the coach? Who is the ultimate authority? Do those kids listen to and respect the coach even if he is not dressed like them?
These uniform threads are going to go on ad-nausium. I would bet that even if my suggestion is adopted it will still happen....
Quote from: CyBorg on November 15, 2009, 05:12:09 AMOr, for that matter, the AF doesn't have issues with the USCG (and Auxiliary) wearing some AF uniform items.
Do you actually know which items those are? Because I do. And the commonality is probably a lot less than you assume.
Quote from: Major Carrales on November 15, 2009, 08:52:41 AM
Just thought I would point out that there must have been some change in the air to warrant the continuation of this thread while I was lambasted in that one.
Not change in the air. Just mob mentality at work.
QuoteSeems as if the best thing to do is not to design any new uniforms.
wisdom.
Quote from: tedda on November 15, 2009, 06:42:34 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on November 15, 2009, 08:52:41 AM
Just thought I would point out that there must have been some change in the air to warrant the continuation of this thread while I was lambasted in that one.
Not change in the air. Just mob mentality at work.
QuoteSeems as if the best thing to do is not to design any new uniforms.
wisdom.
Thanks, Tedda. This thing with uniforms is becoming a fiasco. I hope that when this latest round ends...we can actually have a uniform with longevity. That would end all this bickering.
I'm very happy with the Grey and Whites. I think it's a nice looking uniform that is unique to CAP. I agree that standardizing the shade of grey would be great. However, the only real changes I'd like to see are the addition of a flight cap and jacket, as mentioned above. Wearing the CAP baseball cap with this uniform is OK, but a flight cap would look a lot sharper. And, having everybody wear a different jacket during the cooler months just makes it harder to tell who's actually in uniform, until they take the jacket off.
I like the suggestions above: Grey flight cap with CAP devices and black jacket with epaulets. I think these would look great with the grey and white uniform! And, these are changes that could be made easily and with a minimum of expense to members. So, why not?
Be careful Capt Rob, the uniform nazi's are going to jump all over you for liking the grays.
Put on your asbestos underwear.
Quote from: Pumbaa on November 15, 2009, 02:45:03 PM
Sparky
The more things change the more they stay the same my friend.
My personal opinion is CAP should get out of the military uniform (at least for seniors) PERIOD. There are enough 'uniforms' that can be adopted quickly with minimal costs, that would not "P" off mama blue.
My suggestion, Black "BDU" pants and a light color polo with insignia and name/rank on it. Otherwise a khaki "BDU" pant, with dark polo. Black 'Rocky'/'Bates' style footwear.
For formals, why not just standardize on a business suit? Black or Navy Blue... No need for all the bling.
Now for those who complain that those working with cadets should be in uniform. First.. It is a Cadet program, the cadets run it with GUIDANCE from the seniors. Cadets do not need to see seniors running around in an AF uniform.
Look at a kids football team, basketball etc... Now look at the coach(s)... is he in the same uniform as the kids? Can you figure out who is the coach? Who is the ultimate authority? Do those kids listen to and respect the coach even if he is not dressed like them?
These uniform threads are going to go on ad-nausium. I would bet that even if my suggestion is adopted it will still happen....
Speaking as a former cadet, the seniors that couldn't take the time to get into the same uniform or wear a uniform at all, as we saw it then, didn't deserve our full respect. We had to put on the uniform and wear it correctly, so what made the other seniors special enough not to have to do the same. As an adult, I understand why, but if your asking why seniors should be in uniform when working with cadets, you can't have do as I say, not as I do.
My 2 cents.
Farrier, that is why a lot of cadet programs are a joke. I am glad you were not one of my cadets.
You will disrespect someone because of what they choose not to wear??? You children know nothing.
The cadet program is just that CADET.. The seniors are advisers. Cadets are to run their own show.... If you choose to disrespect a senior member (Your adviser) you have a lot more issues, and that in itself tells me YOU do NOT deserve to wear the Air Force uniform.
Seems you didn't know the core values son.
As I stated earlier, so basket ball players disrespect their coach because he does not wear a uniform? Think the boxer, or MMA fighter disrespects his coach because he does not 'lace' up?
Farrier, when I came back into CAP, I chose not to wear the AF blues, I prefer my goatee. So go ahead and disrespect me. I will take my skills and knowledge and share it with the cadet who knows the true meaning of respect.
I will add this...
I work on a military base in Virginia, day in and day out. I am on call 24/7.
In my building there are 250+ people of which 200 are from all branches of the service. Ranks in this building alone, are all the way up to a 4 star Marine General. A number of times a month, I am in the Office of the Air Force One Star. Guess what, this officer respects me for my abilities, my knowledge, my skills, and what I am able to do for him to make his job (and his peoples) easier and more efficient. Oh yeah and what I am called in for is not even part of my job description, I have the knowledge and skills!
I don't wear a uniform. Most of the time I will wear a polo shirt. Funny how the General does not disrespect me... Amazing how many "Real Military" Captains, Majors and above, call me sir and mean it.
Cadets/youth need to get their priorities straight. You think you know it all.. But in reality you know nothing.
The absolute simplest solution is to make a gray and white knock off of the Air Force Style uniform. There is no need for different patterns, badges, etc. It's not hard and it's far closer to uniform. Plus it then has the military styling for those who have that as an issue.
Simple, direct, decreased organizational cost and rapid deployment.
Quote from: FARRIER on November 15, 2009, 07:26:35 PM
Speaking as a former cadet, the seniors that couldn't take the time to get into the same uniform or wear a uniform at all, as we saw it then, didn't deserve our full respect. We had to put on the uniform and wear it correctly, so what made the other seniors special enough not to have to do the same. As an adult, I understand why, but if your asking why seniors should be in uniform when working with cadets, you can't have do as I say, not as I do.
My 2 cents.
I am also a former cadet...
As I've said in another thread, if a person wears his uniform of choice correctly and with pride, then he *is* setting the best possible example for the cadets. Whether a senior member is wearing the blues or the greys, if he/she wears the uniform improperly, then the uniform itself doesn't matter, the senior is setting a bad example. If the cadets don't get that, then it is up to the senior members to explain it to them. Otherwise, it's a failing on our part, not theirs.
Quote from: Pumbaa on November 15, 2009, 07:47:04 PM
Farrier, that is why a lot of cadet programs are a joke. I am glad you were not one of my cadets.
You will disrespect someone because of what they choose not to wear??? You children know nothing.
The cadet program is just that CADET.. The seniors are advisers. Cadets are to run their own show.... If you choose to disrespect a senior member (Your adviser) you have a lot more issues, and that in itself tells me YOU do NOT deserve to wear the Air Force uniform.
Seems you didn't know the core values son.
As I stated earlier, so basket ball players disrespect their coach because he does not wear a uniform? Think the boxer, or MMA fighter disrespects his coach because he does not 'lace' up?
Farrier, when I came back into CAP, I chose not to wear the AF blues, I prefer my goatee. So go ahead and disrespect me. I will take my skills and knowledge and share it with the cadet who knows the true meaning of respect.
This is just silly. And rude, there's no need for that. The guy had a point.
Cadets can see a double standard like everyone else. Is it hard to believe that they can't understand all the reasons behind it? Besides we all know there are plenty of times where seniors are barely held up to any standard, as long as they come to contribute. Meanwhile Cadets are held up to (often at the same activity) their own standards very closely.
Is it that surprising that some cadets develop these feelings?
Quote from: Pumbaa on November 15, 2009, 08:03:48 PM
I will add this...
I work on a military base in Virginia, day in and day out. I am on call 24/7.
In my building there are 250+ people of which 200 are from all branches of the service. Ranks in this building alone, are all the way up to a 4 star Marine General. A number of times a month, I am in the Office of the Air Force One Star. Guess what, this officer respects me for my abilities, my knowledge, my skills, and what I am able to do for him to make his job (and his peoples) easier and more efficient. Oh yeah and what I am called in for is not even part of my job description, I have the knowledge and skills!
I don't wear a uniform. Most of the time I will wear a polo shirt. Funny how the General does not disrespect me... Amazing how many "Real Military" Captains, Majors and above, call me sir and mean it.
Cadets/youth need to get their priorities straight. You think you know it all.. But in reality you know nothing.
So because an Air Force General has the smarts to respect people outside of a uniform, cadets should be able to as well? They're going to need a little help with that. Help with explaining the situation and help with everyone being held to their own standards.
Sorry about the derail here... Not trying to get locked but I feel its on the way.
Quote from: flyerthom on November 15, 2009, 08:38:02 PM
The absolute simplest solution is to make a gray and white knock off of the Air Force Style uniform. There is no need for different patterns, badges, etc. It's not hard and it's far closer to uniform. Plus it then has the military styling for those who have that as an issue.
Simple, direct, decreased organizational cost and rapid deployment.
That's kind of the idea my group is proceeding with. The problem comes in finding a gray jacket so for the moment we are exploring other options.
Quote from: MIKE on November 15, 2009, 04:30:06 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 15, 2009, 05:12:09 AMOr, for that matter, the AF doesn't have issues with the USCG (and Auxiliary) wearing some AF uniform items.
Do you actually know which items those are? Because I do. And the commonality is probably a lot less than you assume.
Mike:
To the best of my knowledge, without being an SK1 or QM1 (or, for that matter, knowing a lot about Navy/CG ratings):
Light blue AF shirt, long and short sleeve versions
AF blue jacket (waist length)
AF blue pullover sweater
AF blue trenchcoat
Many years ago I saw a guy in military uniform on
The Price Is Right. I may have still been in high school. Having grown up inland, I didn't really know that the CG had even adopted a uniform different to the Navy (Bender Blues). When I saw him, I thought he was in the Air Force. He was in the short-sleeved blue shirt, CG blue pants and considerable ribbon rack. It wasn't until a camera closeup that I noticed he was a CG Warrant Officer.
Now I live in the upper Great Lakes and see both Coasties and Auxiliarists now and then in various orders of dress (mostly ODU's).
My intent was not to say that the CG has taken their uniforms lock, stock and barrel from the AF...which is why I said "
some uniform items."
Quote from: Fuzzy on November 15, 2009, 09:32:54 PMThis is just silly. And rude, there's no need for that. The guy had a point.
There is only a double standard if two groups of people are treated differently under one set of rules. If there is more than one set of rules and people adhere to the rules that apply to them, then there is no double standard. Cadets and seniors have different sets of rules they have to play by. So, there is no double standard.
If cadets can't see that in their immature, black-and-white world (that's not an insult, by any means -- just a truthful observation), then it's up to us to educate them. If we don't teach them, then the failing is ours, not theirs.
Quote from: Pumbaa on November 15, 2009, 07:20:24 PM
Be careful Capt Rob, the uniform nazi's are going to jump all over you for liking the grays.
Put on your asbestos underwear.
Nah. Anyone is free to like the greys, just as anyone is free to not like them. It's not worth insulting one another over.
Quote from: CyBorg on November 15, 2009, 09:45:51 PM
Nah. Anyone is free to like the greys, just as anyone is free to not like them. It's not worth insulting one another over.
You are correct about liking and not liking, however, read some of the posts in regards to the grays and you will see the we "Fat and Fuzzies" tend to take most of the hits.
Quote from: Pumbaa on November 15, 2009, 10:03:13 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 15, 2009, 09:45:51 PM
Nah. Anyone is free to like the greys, just as anyone is free to not like them. It's not worth insulting one another over.
You are correct about liking and not liking, however, read some of the posts in regards to the grays and you will see the we "Fat and Fuzzies" tend to take most of the hits.
Which says more about the hitter than the hittee, I think. It's all too easy to do that on an internet forum.
There are quite a few members of my unit who show up in greys and/or polos (including the unit CC occasionally). I'm just glad to see them and work with them rather than pooh-pooh their uniform choices.
However, I do believe that there should be some sort of "middle-ground" choice between the straight AF-type uniform and the straight corporate-only uni, one that both F&F and non-F&F can claim as our own, and that has links to our heritage. I personally don't see that in the greys.
The CSU was a step in that direction, but the motivation and mechanics behind it were not good, from what I know, and now it's gone.
$0.02 offered.
Quote from: Captain Rob on November 15, 2009, 06:56:22 PMWearing the CAP baseball cap with this uniform is OK, but a flight cap would look a lot sharper.
As a likely candidate to appear on
What Not To Wear, I'm not versed in what headgear is appropriate for various clothing styles, but I've never been a fan of a baseball cap being worn if the wearer's shirt has a collar on it. A ballcap and a polo shirt for example always looks out of place to me, probably because I see baseball caps and t-shirts as very informal. While a polo isn't exactly formal, they are common in the work place while t-shirts and baseball caps are not.
The gray/white combo isn't something I'd wear, but I agree a service hat or flight cap would look better. Anyone know why headgear wasn't authorized when the gray/white was introduced?
Quote from: Pumbaa on November 15, 2009, 10:03:13 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 15, 2009, 09:45:51 PM
Nah. Anyone is free to like the greys, just as anyone is free to not like them. It's not worth insulting one another over.
You are correct about liking and not liking, however, read some of the posts in regards to the grays and you will see the we "Fat and Fuzzies" tend to take most of the hits.
But you turn around and suggest that CAP shouldn't wear blue uniforms, in effect showing the same dislike for blues:
Quote from: Pumbaa on November 15, 2009, 02:45:03 PMMy personal opinion is CAP should get out of the military uniform (at least for seniors) PERIOD.
Might give someone the impression that since you chose to wear distinctives that no one else should have a choice.
Then a statement implying that the person is going to be judged harshly for wearing the distinctive:
Quote from: Pumbaa on November 15, 2009, 07:20:24 PM
Be careful Capt Rob, the uniform nazi's are going to jump all over you for liking the grays.
Put on your asbestos underwear.
Doesn't seem like you're looking to help at all, just posting flamebait. Why bother? Are you that bored?
Quote from: Pumbaa on November 15, 2009, 10:03:13 PM
You are correct about liking and not liking, however, read some of the posts in regards to the grays and you will see the we "Fat and Fuzzies" tend to take most of the hits.
You are correct. It does appear that way, which is actually a little offensive to the non-"Fat-'n-Fuzzies" like myself who wears the aviator uniform because I get enough of wearing the AF-style uniform
in the AF. Just because I choose not to wear an AF uniform once in a while, I don't like being associated with wearing the "Fat Guy Uniform" (FGU).
It's unfortunate but true. All of the corporate uniforms have the reputation of being "uniforms of a lesser standard."
Let's consider this: a corporate uniform for everyone that incorporates the greys and whites, allows for over-weight officers and officers with neatly trimmed beards or goatees. A uniform that remembers our uniformed roots as WW2 combatants and looks at the realities of today's dress and grooming.
Select a new uniform ensemble and have a 5-year to 8-year wear out date for ALL USAF uniforms with a no replacement date within 6 months to a year. Cadets stay blue and SMs go grey.
Quote from: McLarty on November 15, 2009, 10:46:18 PMYou are correct. It does appear that way, which is actually a little offensive to the non-"Fat-'n-Fuzzies" like myself who wears the aviator uniform because I get enough of wearing the AF-style uniform in the AF. Just because I choose not to wear an AF uniform once in a while, I don't like being associated with wearing the "Fat Guy Uniform" (FGU).
There are some, but there's a flip side that thinks that blues don't belong. The discrimination isn't one sided.
If you don't want to wear an AF uniform once in awhile, nothing wrong with that. But there's no reason they should be done away with.
Quote from: Gunner C on November 15, 2009, 11:40:28 PM
It's unfortunate but true. All of the corporate uniforms have the reputation of being "uniforms of a lesser standard."
Let's consider this: a corporate uniform for everyone that incorporates the greys and whites, allows for over-weight officers and officers with neatly trimmed beards or goatees. A uniform that remembers our uniformed roots as WW2 combatants and looks at the realities of today's dress and grooming.
Select a new uniform ensemble and have a 5-year to 8-year wear out date for ALL USAF uniforms with a no replacement date within 6 months to a year. Cadets stay blue and SMs go grey.
Makes a lot of sense, you've got my 'vote'!
Out of curiosity ... when did the aviator uniform get put into service?
Quote from: McLarty on November 16, 2009, 02:41:51 AM
Out of curiosity ... when did the aviator uniform get put into service?
Not sure, my first stint, from 88-91 was in the metal grade and Noriega shirt period (pre Berry-Board), when I came back in January 2001 the aviator/gray was just starting to come in (post Berry-Board).
Quote from: McLarty on November 16, 2009, 02:41:51 AM
Out of curiosity ... when did the aviator uniform get put into service?
They were around in '94 when I first joined. They weren't very common, but they were around.
WOW. I am gone for a few days and here is a 6 page topic in less than two weeks. For all of you that are saying "Oh geez, another uniform topic" I say why not? It is clear that this is a major issue to a large number of people. Last time I checked, this is a volunteer organization, so let'em talk. When people do not feel free to express their opinion is when they start being dissatisfied with what they are doing.
Now that I have said that, let me say this.
I am a "fat and fuzzy" and am getting very tired of being put down because of it. Yes, I know I am overweight, 90 lbs over H/W chart. The whys are not important. But when was the last time any of the guys that bad-talk us fat guys have chased a fleeing crack-head for two blocks, caught up and tackled them, and then had to fight with them to get them into custody? I have, just a couple of months ago. When I finished police academy 17 years ago, I still wouldn't have met the H/W – but I never dropped out of one of the 5 mile runs – as a matter of fact I was a member of the "Cheetah Squad" because we would leave 2/3rd of the class behind. (Recently ran 1 ½ mile in 15:15 & I'm over 40) SO – JUST BECAUSE I'M FAT DOES NOT MEAN I AM OUT OF SHAPE!!!!!!! >:(
More to come
KUDOS to the committee!!! I need a uniform that looks good and I loved the CSU. I am very disappointed that it was ripped from us. I am proud of my awards and my qualifications and would strongly oppose any proposal that would strip the "military-style" away from what we are wearing. From reading the board, I've seen a lot of suggestions and thoughts thrown out, but I haven't seen the codified guidelines. Here are my thoughts for guidelines:
*** Note this would be for the non-USAF uniform only. Those that want to wear the USAF-style should still do so. *****
1 – The uniform should be extremely cost-effective. SMs are already paying a lot up-front in costs, we should try to keep this cost down. One of the ways to do this is to use as much "off-the-rack" as possible, with possible multiple suppliers.
2 – The uniform should be CAP distinctive, but military-style.
3 – The uniform should be flexible. There should be one "base set" of service uniforms – just like everything builds on the basic light blue shirt / dark blue pants for USAF. For us, multiple uniform combos should spawn from the basic white/grays.
Now for some thoughts to the committee.
I would really like to explore the black trousers idea. With all the gray on the white shirt, gray slacks "wash-out" the person wearing the uniform even more. The black trousers would serve to add contrast to the ensemble. Also, with the Army doing away with the black trousers and going all blue (see below), black will be distinctive. Also, we can use the Navy black trousers for cost issues & uniformity.
Tried to put pic in, couldn't figure out how to do it.
And since anyone wearing epaulette sleeves will have stripe down the trousers, we will avoid further conflict.
I would like to see the Army black windbreaker become the designated jacket for the combo, with the requisite gray epaulette sleeves. Ditto the commando sweater.
I agree with a cap/hat. If we use the black trousers, then the US Navy's new black flight cap with the CAP SM eagle will go nicely with it . (Again, off the rack = lower costs).
Service Coat – Now that will be the hard one. I definitely think we should incorporate one, since the corporate service coat died. Wide open for ideas about that.
I'll Photoshop some ideas in the next couple of days. I LOVE to Photoshop.
The 'black' trousers in the new Navy E-1 through E-6 uniform are actually Navy blue, which is almost black. 'Black' trousers may further perpetuate the 'airline pilot' uniform image; not that I have a problem with it, I do like the idea.
The Army is actually retiring the greens; IIRC there was a black uniform but I think it's been retired some years ago, as was the white summer uniform for officers. Unless the trouser stripe is already built into the trousers, it's gonna be an expensive bit of tailoring.
If we can add piping to the flight cap, similar to the AF-style flight cap to differentiate SMWOG/NCO and officer, better still. But a plain flight cap will probably make things simpler.
Service cap should include 'scrambled eggs' or 'farts and darts' for field-grade officers. Again, for simplicity we could get rid of it and keep a plain visor.
Just my two cents... before taxes take away most of it!
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 16, 2009, 11:33:53 AM
The 'black' trousers in the new Navy E-1 through E-6 uniform are actually Navy blue, which is almost black. 'Black' trousers may further perpetuate the 'airline pilot' uniform image; not that I have a problem with it, I do like the idea.
Ok. I thought they were black. It would not be hard to find a "commercial" source for black trousers. I know that it might tend us towards the "airline pilot" uiniform, but with the nameplate, qual badges, ribbons, and epaluette sleeves, that should differentiate us enough to make it easy to see. Besides, Ma Blue wouldn't have any room to complain.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 16, 2009, 11:33:53 AMThe Army is actually retiring the greens; IIRC there was a black uniform but I think it's been retired some years ago, as was the white summer uniform for officers. Unless the trouser stripe is already built into the trousers, it's gonna be an expensive bit of tailoring.
I tried to include a picture of the new Army uniforms, but couldn't get it to insert. The striping is on the Army uniform. We would go with just a plain black trouser. I believe early 2010 is the completed phase out / phase in for the new unifroms.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 16, 2009, 11:33:53 AMIf we can add piping to the flight cap, similar to the AF-style flight cap to differentiate SMWOG/NCO and officer, better still. But a plain flight cap will probably make things simpler.
Service cap should include 'scrambled eggs' or 'farts and darts' for field-grade officers. Again, for simplicity we could get rid of it and keep a plain visor.
Just my two cents... before taxes take away most of it!
I would like to see the piping on the flight cap as well, but would not advocate putting it on there just for us. Besides, the black flight cap would be distinguishing enough for the white/grays.
Quote from: McLarty on November 16, 2009, 02:41:51 AM
Out of curiosity ... when did the aviator uniform get put into service?
Another $0.02:
I first joined in late 1993. Berry boards, blue nameplates, BDU's, three different flight suits (green, blue, orange) and several types of polo shirts (though my unit only wore AF-style). My unit had some of the blue epaulettes in our inventory, but we couldn't wear them.
At that time, we weren't sure if we were going to be allowed to wear the new "Tony McPeak" AF uniform or not. One option I heard of was we were, with light blue sleeve rank, and the other was that we'd stay in the four-pocket coat and go back to hard rank. Of course, neither happened.
I was aware of the grey/white from pictures but I didn't see any until I first went to a Wing function, and those were different to what we have now. No epaulettes, no ribbons, and the nameplate was the same as on the blazer combo.
The current grey/whites came in around '95-'96, around the time the grey epaulettes and grey nameplates came in, and when the AF allowed us to wear the "U.S." cutouts for officers on the AF service coat. Go-ahead to wear ribbons on the white shirt was several years later, I think.
Why gray and white were chosen when so many other colours were available is beyond me.
Sorry, wrong thread, I moved this to the design a new uniform thread.
I was asked to photoshop a blue coat to gray, but have failed epically. :(
Then this was posted in the other thread:
Quote from: arajca on November 20, 2009, 11:12:50 PM
Basic working design for CT-UNI group
[smg id=67]
Personally, I think that is rocking and works great, minus the blue tie -black would look better.
We will never get the "US" cutouts on any corporate uniform. Nor should we assume that military badges or decorations could be worn. As far as metal rank, don't count on that either.
My opinion is a "CAP" tee shirt and khaki cargo pants are in our future.
I am just so disgusted by the elimination of the CSU still!
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on November 21, 2009, 12:43:34 AM
I was asked to photoshop a blue coat to gray, but have failed epically. :(
Then this was posted in the other thread:
Quote from: arajca on November 20, 2009, 11:12:50 PM
Basic working design for CT-UNI group
[smg id=67]
Personally, I think that is rocking and works great, minus the blue tie -black would look better.
Black jackets on paramilitary style units...it screams GODWIN's LAW.
Funny, having grown up in the Former Soviet Union, it has no such effect on me.
Quote from: Major Carrales on November 23, 2009, 02:49:09 AM
Black jackets on paramilitary style units...it screams GODWIN's LAW.
The bad guys wore just about every uniform color out there. Every one of those uniform colors have been used by other organizations since WWII without major issues. The Navy and Marines are pulling off dark color jackets just fine.
As long as a uniform doesn't include riding boots with breeches and crushed caps few will care.
This thread is full of excuses to say no. Commissioning stripes versus officer stripes. Hard rank versus epaulets. Grey or black or khaki. We might look too much like cops or too much like the Air Force or too much like history. I'll just say it: I am not fond of the black coats and prefer the grey if a change must be made. In the meantime I'll wear the AF blues or the current grey and/or the blazer combo. Personal preference, that's it.
Quote from: wuzafuzz on November 23, 2009, 03:10:33 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on November 23, 2009, 02:49:09 AM
Black jackets on paramilitary style units...it screams GODWIN's LAW.
The bad guys wore just about every uniform color out there. Every one of those uniform colors have been used by other organizations since WWII without major issues. The Navy and Marines are pulling off dark color jackets just fine.
As long as a uniform doesn't include riding boots with breeches and crushed caps few will care.
This thread is full of excuses to say no. Commissioning stripes versus officer stripes. Hard rank versus epaulets. Grey or black or khaki. We might look too much like cops or too much like the Air Force or too much like history. I'll just say it: I am not fond of the black coats and prefer the grey if a change must be made. In the meantime I'll wear the AF blues or the current grey and/or the blazer combo. Personal preference, that's it.
Part of the issue is availabilty and cost. Black and various shades of dark blue are already available for low to moderate cost. Grey would be a custom item and would have a similar, custom-made (translated: high) price tag.
Quote from: arajca on November 23, 2009, 03:57:04 AM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on November 23, 2009, 03:10:33 AM
I am not fond of the black coats and prefer the grey if a change must be made. In the meantime I'll wear the AF blues or the current grey and/or the blazer combo. Personal preference, that's it.
Part of the issue is availabilty and cost. Black and various shades of dark blue are already available for low to moderate cost. Grey would be a custom item and would have a similar, custom-made (translated: high) price tag.
Understood. Although I like the grey, it's probable any alternative dress uniform would have to go with a Navy blue jacket. I was just stating my preference. All the grief over navy or black jackets is nonsense, it's the same colors as our existing blazer uniform.
Using readily available police and fire type coats would either require some customization or hard rank since their epaulets are partially sewn down.
Grey pants, white shirt, navy blue jacket. Just tweak the tie, add a hat and dress jacket. It's relatively cost efficient, uses existing CAP uniform colors, and it allows members to display their CAP bling, unlike the blazer.
Of course all this assumes the CSU really disappears and the AF doesn't permit all CAP members to wear the AF style uniform. (Some mystics have predicted that will take place in 2012 and actually cause doomsday. Terrible. ;-) )
Just as an aside - There is also a very similar discussion taking place on the "Design a new CAP-distinctive uniform" and "Uniform Supplier of Gray Pants" threads.