Crisis Service Ribbon

[etodd]

It would be nice if threads about how we can look for new missions and reasons for existing, in order to attract new members and grow, would go as long and involved as uniform threads.

Surely some of the AF folks y'all fuss about, see these comments and just shake their heads, wondering about what priorities the average CAP member has.

The AF uses marketing gimmicks like the Total Force campaign, to convince Congress to keep and increase budgets. Seriously. Thats who its geared toward.

As the cell phone team takes over more and more of the saves, and other commercial ventures do more and more of photo missions for FEMA ... you know the AF has to be start wondering of the viability of such a large inventory of Cessnas. At some point Congress will start asking the hard questions. Might be time for the Charter to be rewritten. Primary emphasis on Cadets maybe.

I see tough times ahead, unless all of us members start putting our emphasis of what mission work we can do in the near future.

JMHO thoughts of the morning. Wearing my flame proof suit.

[N6RVT]

As an FYI, the newly updated USAF uniform regulation still includes the prohibition on mixing military and civilian items.

We need to specify a different tie to be worn over the aviator whites then (and stop allowing the USAF cardigan sweater).

Everyone seems to have skipped over my point: nobody is enforcing any of this.  I have seen a continuous stream of what in the actual military would be article 15 actions and literally no consequences.

[Robert Hartigan]

CAP is only an Interim Change letter away from awarding a uniform ribbon for not joining. Why not just affix a bronze mask device to the life saving ribbon?  I think I understand the reasoning for creating the award, but it is going to take more than adding another sku number to the Vangard website to help assauge the impact of COVID on the psyche of the organization. I don't believe another ribbon is going to help unless you are in the ribbon rack building business. SMH. 

[etodd]

Everyone seems to have skipped over my point: nobody is enforcing any of this.  I have seen a continuous stream of what in the actual military would be article 15 actions and literally no consequences.

You looking to whittle our membership down to a tenth of its current low levels? See my post above.  Its not the 1950s any more. Time for new directions. Less emphasis on starched shirts and more emphasis on what missions can we do in the future. I forsee CAP being less military like in the future for seniors. The Cadet program may the primary, or sole, mission in a few years. At which point they could be blended into AFROTC.

[PHall]

As an FYI, the newly updated USAF uniform regulation still includes the prohibition on mixing military and civilian items.

We need to specify a different tie to be worn over the aviator whites then (and stop allowing the USAF cardigan sweater).

Everyone seems to have skipped over my point: nobody is enforcing any of this.  I have seen a continuous stream of what in the actual military would be article 15 actions and literally no consequences.

Actually it is being enforced, but not everywhere and all the time.
I'm willing to bet that if you went to a wing level cadet programs activity you would see a high level of compliance to the uniform wear rules. By both cadets and seniors.
But at an ES activity that is all seniors attending, yeah not-so-much.
The rules are enforced only when the members running an activity make it a point to enforce all of the rules and not just the one's they like.

[NIN]

We need to specify a different tie to be worn over the aviator whites then (and stop allowing the USAF cardigan sweater).

I'm a little weirded out by the cardigan with corps. Its in the reg, but I take your point about the schism..

But a blue tie is, basically, just a blue tie.  I'm pretty sure nobody is getting NJP'd over using their uniform tie incorrectly.

[Spam]

I have to speak to the enforcement issue.

In SER we are blessed (and I am not sarcastic when I say that) with a commander who is serious about uniform enforcement. To the point that at one point as her vice commander she once seriously counseled me on wearing a crew neck undershirt. Which I laughingly replied "have you seen the manly chest hair here" but I then went and bought a 3 pack of V necks.... and redoubled my quiet insistence on adherence to her Commanders Guidance. 

Yes, I am the guy who has sent people home from an activity for insisting that they could wear a civilian coat with USAF style uniforms "for safety". It makes me an A hole, I know, in many eyes. In the past couple of years I have come to dread visiting meetings/activities in the winter time, where I will be required to tell commanders to have their members take off the warm coats, or stay inside (no drill) or go home. That to me is far more serious than discussion on not wearing a Crisis Service Ribbon for which the vast majority of our national members just sat on Zoom meetings.

As I've said many times, uniform compliance is a leading indicator of a compliance mindset. If someone can't be troubled to follow the uniform regs then that's an indicator of a lax attitude in other areas (e.g. cadet protection policy, airmanship standards, etc.). In over 30 years of active CAP service I've seen that to be true far more often than not.

The sad root of the problem though is that corporately, we have completely failed to be PROACTIVE vice REACTIVE to the DoD customers uniform trends, and we still are failing our local members in terms of access to affordable, current generation uniforms and accoutrements. When we hold true to compliance, that "prices out" a significant number of our less wealthy members. When we hold true, it creates a second class citizen effect. And that my friends is purely hell to enforce, if you have a soul.

R/s
Spam

[etodd]

Yes, I am the guy who has sent people home from an activity for insisting that they could wear a civilian coat with USAF style uniforms "for safety"    ........... When we hold true to compliance, that "prices out" a significant number of our less wealthy members. When we hold true, it creates a second class citizen effect. And that my friends is purely hell to enforce, if you have a soul.

Huh?

So was the member you sent home wealthy and could afford it, or poor and you sent him home anyway?

[Eclipse]

So was the member you sent home wealthy and could afford it, or poor and you sent him home anyway?

No they were non-compliant.  Anything else is supposed to be irrelevant.

[biomed441]

On a more related note.... is there a miniature medal that goes along with this or is it a ribbon only?

[SarDragon]

I'm guessing there will eventually be a mini medal. Keep checking the Vanguard catalog.

[SARDOC]

It is more appropriately similar in design to the US Public Health Crisis Response Medal, replaced above.

Agreed - just the inner two colors reversed from the looks of it.  The criteria for awarding it more matches the disaster relief ribbon, whereas ours is more like the army service ribbon as you get it just for joining the organization.  This will be the first ribbon anyone gets, even before the membership ribbon for level one.

The Army Service Ribbon isn't awarded for just entering the service.  To earn that award you must successfully complete and become qualified in a military occupational specialty...More like our Level 1 ribbon.

I did Three years in the National Guard...there was no money to send me to an MOS school, so at the end of my service there no Army Service Ribbon.  I did however get the Army Reserve Component Achievement Medal, for three years honorable service.

[Jester]

I'm willing to bet money on a few things:

- 36-2903's verbiage banning the mixing of civilian and military items is NOT intended to ban the wear of earned military awards on a corporate uniform.  To reach that conclusion is silly, at best.  Especially when we've already pointed to a couple of cases where we require a mixing of military & civilian items in our own regulations regarding the same uniform combination in question.  Come on now.

- The USAF DOES NOT GIVE A CRAP about us.  Most of them don't even know they exist.  I constantly see CAP pointing to the AF as the boogeyman that doesn't like something and therefore we can't do it.  I call shenanigans.  "We still wear black boots and ABUs because the AF wants us to be identifiable as different in low-light conditions!"  Excuse me but huh?  Gotta be identifiable for all those missions we do with the AF where we're garotting enemy sentries under cover of darkness.

A conversation during the Clinton administration that hasn't been revisited since doesn't count.

[Toad1168]

One thing I never have understood is the prohibition with wearing the AFOEA on the mess dress.

[Jester]

One thing I never have understood is the prohibition with wearing the AFOEA on the mess dress.

I assume it's because there's no medal equivalent in the AF and making one just for us would require a lot of effort that's not essential in the grand scheme of things.

We need to cut down mini medals to individual decorations, not every ribbon needing a mini medal equivalent.

[Shuman 14]

There was a former national commander (his name shall not be uttered in polite company) who shared a very similar opinion... and the Air Force strongly disagreed. 

HWSNBN's problem was he ignored the USAF and did many things without seeking their guidance, approval or input.

While I understand the concept of it being easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission, he took it to a whole new level; it's no wonder that his career ended in the crash that it did.

Doing that is not what I'm suggesting,

What I am suggesting is holding a CAP Uniform Board annually, producing a well drafted report of the Board's findings and their recommendation, and then submitting said report to CAP-USAF for their input/recommendations.

It is a polite, by the book, gentle poke of the bear, to hopefully guide them into a different course of action then has happened in the past.

[Shuman 14]

Also, it would be nice if CAP was recognized in AFI 36-2903, either in the introduction ("This publication applies to Department of the Air Force civilian and contract employees and uniformed members of the United States Space Force (USSF), the Regular Air Force (RegAF), the Air Force Reserve (ResAF), and the Air National Guard (ANG) and retired and separated personnel.") or in a way similar to how para 1.2.9 is currently worded.

I absolutely concur.

Simply adding after "(ANG)" ... the Civil Air Patrol (the US Air Force Auxiliary)... and before "and retired" would do wonders. If CAP uniforms need to mentioned more in depth in the Instruction, they can reference CAPR 39-1.

If anything, it might prompt a reader of the Instruction to research CAP and we might gain a new member.

[Shuman 14]

- 36-2903's verbiage banning the mixing of civilian and military items is NOT intended to ban the wear of earned military awards on a corporate uniform.  To reach that conclusion is silly, at best.  Especially when we've already pointed to a couple of cases where we require a mixing of military & civilian items in our own regulations regarding the same uniform combination in question.  Come on now.

I concur that the mixing verbiage is designed to prohibit an Airman from wearing a camouflaged field jacket, complete with name tapes and rank, over his polo shirt and blue jeans when he heads out to the club on a given Friday night...
not to deny a veteran the right to wear his or her earned military decorations on appropriate civilian attire.


Quoting from Medals of America:

"Beginning with Veterans Day 2006, the Secretary of Veteran Affairs urged Veterans to show their pride of service by wearing their medals on Veterans Day. He expressed the hope this display of military decorations, which he called the "Veterans Pride Initiative," would become a traditional part of Veterans Day, Memorial Day, the Fourth of July and other patriotic observances.

For Civilian Wear:
For more formal occasions, it is correct and encouraged by the Veterans Administration to wear miniature decorations and medals. For a black or white tie occasion, the rule is quite simple: if the lapel is wide enough you wear the miniatures on the left lapel. In the case of a shawl lapel on a tuxedo, the miniature medals are worn over the left breast pocket. The center of the holding bar of the bottom row of medals should be parallel to the ground immediately above the pocket. Do not wear a pocket-handkerchief. Miniature medals really do make a handsome statement of patriotic service at weddings and other social events. Miniature ribbons and medals can also be worn on a civilian suit at Veterans' functions, memorial events, formal occasions of ceremony and social functions of a military nature.

ARMY:
Army Regulation 670-1, paragraph 30-6, says that former members of the Army (including active duty, reserves, or Army National Guard) may wear medals on civilian clothes (that's "appropriate") on Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, and Armed Forces Day, as well as at "formal occasions of ceremony and social functions of a military nature." "Appropriate" civilian clothes include clothes designed for Veteran and patriotic organizations, such as VFW or American Legion uniforms. You can wear either the full-size or miniature-size medals. You should place the medals and decorations in approximately the same location and in the same manner as for the Army uniform, so they look similar to medals worn on the Army uniform.

AIR FORCE:
Air Force Instruction 36-2903, paragraph 4-4 says that honorably discharged and retired Air Force members may wear full-size or miniature medals on civilian clothes on appropriate occasions such as Veterans Day, Memorial Day and Armed Forces Day. Female members may wear full-size or miniature medals on equivalent dress. As with the Army, medals should be placed in the approximate same location and in the manner they are planned on the Air Force uniform.

NAVY:
The Navy Uniform Regulations, Chapter 6, paragraph 61002; subparagraph 7 includes the requirements for wearing Navy decorations and medals on civilian clothes. The regulation authorizes the wear of miniature medals and miniature breast insignia on civilian evening dress (white tie) or civilian dinner dress (black tie) in the same manner as for dinner dress jackets. For non-dress-up-affairs, you may wear miniature replicas of ribbons made in the form of lapel buttons(written before mini-ribbon technology), or ribbons made in rosette form, on the left lapel of civilian clothes. You may also wear miniature-distinguished marksmanship and pistol shot badges as a lapel pin or as part of a tie clasp on civilian clothing.

MARINE CORPS:
The Marine Corps Uniform Regulation, MCO P1020.34G, says that decorations, medals, appropriate ribbon bars, or lapel buttons may be worn on civilian clothes at the individual's discretion. Individuals should ensure that the occasion and the manner of wearing will not reflect discredit on the award. Miniature medals may be worn with civilian evening dress. For non-evening dress, miniature replicas of ribbons made in the form of enameled lapel buttons(written before mini-ribbon technology), or ribbons made in rosette form, may be worn on the left lapel of civilian clothes."

So basically all the Services say you CAN wear military decorations on appropriate civilian clothing.

A police, fire, EMS uniform - appropriate civilian clothing

A tuxedo at a wedding or other social event - appropriate civilian attire

An AL, VFW, AMVETS, CWV or other Veterans' group uniform - appropriate civilian attire

A business suit on Veterans' Day - appropriate civilian attire

A Civil Air Patrol Corporate Uniform - FULL STOP! FORBIDDEN! THAT'S JUST CRAZY TALK!

Does anyone else see how intentionally obtuse this really is? :-(

[Shuman 14]

One thing I never have understood is the prohibition with wearing the AFOEA on the mess dress.

In the Military, awards come in two formats Medals or Ribbons. Medals are worn three ways: Full-sized Medal, Mini-Medal or ribbon only.

Ribbons, generally considered a lesser decoration come solely as a ribbon only and can only be worn one way... as a ribbon.

Now based on the type of uniform being worn dictates how an award in worn.

Work/Combat Uniform - no awards are worn

Service Uniform - ribbons only

Dress Uniform - Full-sized Medals only (In the Naval Services, Ribbon only awards are moved to above the right pocket and Full-sized Medals are worn over the left pocket. In the Army, Unit Awards are ribbon only awards and are always worn on the right side in Service and Dress Uniforms)

Mess Uniform - Mini-medals only

As the AFOEA is a ribbon only award, it is a unit award, it cannot be worn on a Mess Uniform.

Just my opinion, CAP's two unit awards, the National Commander's Unit Citation Award and the Unit Citation Award should never have been made into mini-medals and followed the USAF precedence/tradition and stayed as ribbon only awards.

[PHall]

It is more appropriately similar in design to the US Public Health Crisis Response Medal, replaced above.

Agreed - just the inner two colors reversed from the looks of it.  The criteria for awarding it more matches the disaster relief ribbon, whereas ours is more like the army service ribbon as you get it just for joining the organization.  This will be the first ribbon anyone gets, even before the membership ribbon for level one.

The Army Service Ribbon isn't awarded for just entering the service.  To earn that award you must successfully complete and become qualified in a military occupational specialty...More like our Level 1 ribbon.

I did Three years in the National Guard...there was no money to send me to an MOS school, so at the end of my service there no Army Service Ribbon.  I did however get the Army Reserve Component Achievement Medal, for three years honorable service.

You didn't get a National Defense Service Medal?