Civil Air Patrol will present colors at Obama town hall

[Gunner C]

Hanging offense!

GC

[Short Field]

In a lot of respects, just providing a color guard to present the flag seems like a good idea.  Sort of the "no such thing as bad press" rule.

But the more I think about it, the more it seems too political and too much of a bad idea. 

Gunner - you need to sit down for this - but I have to absolutely agree with you. 

There also ought to be some military commanders out there tracking down the folks showing up in uniforms at political rallies...

[mikeylikey]

There also ought to be some military commanders out there tracking down the folks showing up in uniforms at political rallies...

Trust me there are!

[CASH172]

I think we oughta get some for CAP too after this. 

[Short Field]

In the next election, I have to follow the advice Jack Aubrey gave in the movie "Master and Commander":  Always choose the lesser of two weevils.   

[IceNine]

In the next election, I have to follow the advice Jack Aubrey gave in the movie "Master and Commander":  Always choose the lesser of two weevils.   

Tread lightly  politics are not usually calm or well recieved discussions

Plus you are starting a huge derail

[afgeo4]

Wingnut,

I would say that it is absolutely a political event.

It will have the appearance of a political endorsement.

Someone is not thinking (or are they?).

Regards,
Ken

Presenting colors at a speech made by a US Senator isn't quite a "political event" and certainly doesn't appear to be any sort of an endorsement. Senator McCain just spent a while visiting troops deployed in southwest asia and did speak about his endorsement and possible presidency. There were uniformed troops everywhere! What do you want them to do? Dissapear?

I believe that the DoD policy and CAP policy speak of participating in political rallies that are detrimental to the US, its security and its policies. A soldier has a right to support any candidate by US law. He/she simply can't say that the branch or the military does.

Quit bunching up your panties ladies. Presenting US colors at a function of the US government (which the election process is) is honorable and in no way endorses anyone or anything aside from the flag of the United States. People read into a lot of stuff and hey, they have the right to do so, but it doesn't make it smart.

[Gunner C]

Wingnut,

I would say that it is absolutely a political event.

It will have the appearance of a political endorsement.

Someone is not thinking (or are they?).

Regards,
Ken

Presenting colors at a speech made by a US Senator isn't quite a "political event" and certainly doesn't appear to be any sort of an endorsement.

I'd have to disagree.  Anything that the three remaining candidates do right now is political.  If it involves a camera and two people, it's political.  Cadets being used in such a venue is disturbing.

GC

[afgeo4]

Wingnut,

I would say that it is absolutely a political event.

It will have the appearance of a political endorsement.

Someone is not thinking (or are they?).

Regards,
Ken

Presenting colors at a speech made by a US Senator isn't quite a "political event" and certainly doesn't appear to be any sort of an endorsement.

I'd have to disagree.  Anything that the three remaining candidates do right now is political.  If it involves a camera and two people, it's political.  Cadets being used in such a venue is disturbing.

GC

Nothing personal, but don't you have something more serious to be disturbed about? Cadets properly presenting colors at a US Senator's speech? Really? That's your worst nightmare?

[Gunner C]

Wingnut,

I would say that it is absolutely a political event.

It will have the appearance of a political endorsement.

Someone is not thinking (or are they?).

Regards,
Ken

Presenting colors at a speech made by a US Senator isn't quite a "political event" and certainly doesn't appear to be any sort of an endorsement.

I'd have to disagree.  Anything that the three remaining candidates do right now is political.  If it involves a camera and two people, it's political.  Cadets being used in such a venue is disturbing.

GC

Nothing personal, but don't you have something more serious to be disturbed about? Cadets properly presenting colors at a US Senator's speech? Really? That's your worst nightmare?

Far from my worst nightmare.  But political stuff will eventually backfire, and that's the last thing we need.  We need to remain politically neutral.  At the very least, we could loose our tax exempt status.  BIG PROBLEM.

GC

[afgeo4]

Wingnut,

I would say that it is absolutely a political event.

It will have the appearance of a political endorsement.

Someone is not thinking (or are they?).

Regards,
Ken

Presenting colors at a speech made by a US Senator isn't quite a "political event" and certainly doesn't appear to be any sort of an endorsement.

I'd have to disagree.  Anything that the three remaining candidates do right now is political.  If it involves a camera and two people, it's political.  Cadets being used in such a venue is disturbing.

GC

Nothing personal, but don't you have something more serious to be disturbed about? Cadets properly presenting colors at a US Senator's speech? Really? That's your worst nightmare?

Far from my worst nightmare.  But political stuff will eventually backfire, and that's the last thing we need.  We need to remain politically neutral.  At the very least, we could loose our tax exempt status.  BIG PROBLEM.

GC

That would take an act of Congress, so don't worry.

[afgeo4]

By the way... where does it say that CAP personnel cannot participate in political events in uniform?

Someone please quote a reg or policy letter for me.

[Pylon]

That would take an act of Congress, so don't worry.

Tax-exempt status is neither determined, granted nor revoked by Congress.  The IRS determines it.   Since we qualify for tax-exempt status under section 501(c)(3) of the IRS code, we have to be very limited in any political dealings to maintain that status.

Direct from an IRS web page on 501(c)(3) organizations (with my clarification in brackets, and my bolding):

"In addition, it [the 501(c)(3) organization] may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates."   

The same page also says "Section 501(c)(3) organizations are restricted in how much political and legislative (lobbying) activities they may conduct."



To illustrate how important this status is, it is what allows us to accept donations and for the donor to deduct them on his/her taxes, it is what allows us CAP members to deduct our expenses (like dues, uniforms, mileage, participation costs, etc.), it is what allows us to receive many grants and other types of funding, it is what keeps CAP from paying tax on everything from vehicle and building purchases to a squadron buying paperclips at the local Staples.  It's a big deal.  CAP needs 501(c)(3) status to survive in our current form. 

[Gunner C]

That would take an act of Congress, so don't worry.

Tax-exempt status is neither determined, granted nor revoked by Congress.  The IRS determines it.   Since we qualify for tax-exempt status under section 501(c)(3) of the IRS code, we have to be very limited in any political dealings to maintain that status.

Direct from an IRS web page on 501(c)(3) organizations (with my clarification in brackets, and my bolding):

"In addition, it [the 501(c)(3) organization] may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates."   

It also says "Section 501(c)(3) organizations are restricted in how much political and legislative (lobbying) activities they may conduct."

I'm just sayin' . . .

Someone has some 'splainin' to do.

GC

[afgeo4]

That would take an act of Congress, so don't worry.

Tax-exempt status is neither determined, granted nor revoked by Congress.  The IRS determines it.   Since we qualify for tax-exempt status under section 501(c)(3) of the IRS code, we have to be very limited in any political dealings to maintain that status.

Direct from an IRS web page on 501(c)(3) organizations (with my clarification in brackets, and my bolding):

"In addition, it [the 501(c)(3) organization] may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates."   

The same page also says "Section 501(c)(3) organizations are restricted in how much political and legislative (lobbying) activities they may conduct."



To illustrate how important this status is, it is what allows us to accept donations and for the donor to deduct them on his/her taxes, it is what allows us CAP members to deduct our expenses (like dues, uniforms, mileage, participation costs, etc.), it is what allows us to receive many grants and other types of funding, it is what keeps CAP from paying tax on everything from vehicle and building purchases to a squadron buying paperclips at the local Staples.  It's a big deal.  CAP needs 501(c)(3) status to survive in our current form. 

Understood. However, is presenting the colors of the United States an action for or against a political candidate?

[Gunner C]

That would take an act of Congress, so don't worry.

Tax-exempt status is neither determined, granted nor revoked by Congress.  The IRS determines it.   Since we qualify for tax-exempt status under section 501(c)(3) of the IRS code, we have to be very limited in any political dealings to maintain that status.

Direct from an IRS web page on 501(c)(3) organizations (with my clarification in brackets, and my bolding):

"In addition, it [the 501(c)(3) organization] may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates."   

The same page also says "Section 501(c)(3) organizations are restricted in how much political and legislative (lobbying) activities they may conduct."



To illustrate how important this status is, it is what allows us to accept donations and for the donor to deduct them on his/her taxes, it is what allows us CAP members to deduct our expenses (like dues, uniforms, mileage, participation costs, etc.), it is what allows us to receive many grants and other types of funding, it is what keeps CAP from paying tax on everything from vehicle and building purchases to a squadron buying paperclips at the local Staples.  It's a big deal.  CAP needs 501(c)(3) status to survive in our current form. 

Understood. However, is presenting the colors of the United States an action for or against a political candidate?

It would make us a supporting agency at that function.  I don't think we could say "Heck, we don't support political functions" when we're playing a supporting role at political functions.

[♠SARKID♠]

Understood. However, is presenting the colors of the United States an action for or against a political candidate?

It's hard not to be seen in support of the candidate.  Unless you tape a big disclaimer to the backs of the cadets' uniforms you'd be hard pressed to show neutrality.  I don't think its a matter of presenting the colors or not, I think its a matter of just being there.  Unless you're carrying a torch or pitchfork, if you show up to a rally you're probably in support of it.

As for somebody putting the foot down on these guys, nationals reads this forum, its been in the news, I'm sure they know about it and are busy pounding out the cease & desist right now.

[wingnut]

By the way... where does it say that CAP personnel cannot participate in political events in uniform?

Someone please quote a reg or policy letter for me.

READ YOUR REGS DUDE

See CAPM 39-1 CAP Uniform Manual 
Table 1-1. Wearing the Uniform
Do not wear the uniform when participating in activities such as public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, rallies, or in any public demonstration not approved by the Air Force. Wearing the uniform may imply sanction of the cause for which the demonstration or activity is conducted.Do not wear the uniform when furthering private employment or commercial interests, if official sponsorship might be inferred.
Do not wear the uniform when engaged in private employment.
Do not wear the uniform under any circumstance that would tend to bring discredit or reproach upon the uniform.

Also AFI 36-2903 DRESS AND PERSONAL APPEARANCE OF AIR FORCE PERSONNEL             
Table 1.3. Wearing the Uniform (see notes).
Do not wear the uniform when furthering political activities, private employment, or commercial interests.

IF YOU READ THE ARTICLE IT WAS THE CADET WHO MADE THE REQUEST, CADETS HAVE NO BUSINESS MAKING PUBLIC APPEARENCE ENGAGEMENTS ON BEHALF OF THE CIVIL AIR PATROL, AND ON A NATIONAL FORUM SUCH  AS THIS. WHAT"S NEXT? Carry the colors at a Nazi rally or how about the Michigan Militia, or the Minute Men on the Border. Obama is not appearing as a "SENATOR, but at a political rally. If this thing is allowed an Official petition to the IG and to the Air Force will follow, mark my word 'Heads will roll. The senior members head who runs that Cadet Squadron will be the first.

[mikeylikey]

Nothing personal, but don't you have something more serious to be disturbed about? Cadets properly presenting colors at a US Senator's speech? Really? That's your worst nightmare?

You have to stop thinking of Mr Obama as a US Senator now, and start thinking of him as the Democratic Parties Front Runner for President.  He may be a Senator, but unless he is doing something specifically in line with his Senatorial duties, he is a Presidential Candidate.  Plain and Simple. 

With the Unit supporting his political rally (and yes that is what it is, a Rally) it says "CAP supports Obama".

[CASH172]

Tax-exempt status is neither determined, granted nor revoked by Congress.  The IRS determines it.   Since we qualify for tax-exempt status under section 501(c)(3) of the IRS code, we have to be very limited in any political dealings to maintain that status.

Direct from an IRS web page on 501(c)(3) organizations (with my clarification in brackets, and my bolding):

"In addition, it [the 501(c)(3) organization] may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates."   

The same page also says "Section 501(c)(3) organizations are restricted in how much political and legislative (lobbying) activities they may conduct."

So when it says CAP can't lobby, what does Legislative Day count as?  What does CAP's Legislative Squadron count as?  To me those sound like huge lobbying functions to get CAP's name and purpose in the mind of legislators.