Would You GO??

[JohnKachenmeister]

Jim:

That's what happens when you let lawyers write history.

Initially, you are correct, CAP was organized under Civil Defense.  CAP members had no uniforms, only an identifying armband.  (Of course, that left the membership with nothing to talk about, but I digress.)

There were several incidents where U-Boats were observed and CAP crews were unable to locate any military forces to respond to attack them.  The last of these incidents was in Florida, but there were indidents off the Texas Gulf Coast as well.

Hap Arnold was furious that targets were presented, but nobody was available to strike, and ordered that the CAP planes be armed.  While his technical people worked out weight-and-balance issues and designed a series of bomb racks that could be fitted to general aviation airplanes at the time, his other staff members pointed out that if any CAP members were to be captured by German submarine crews, the volunteers could be considered "Unlawful Combatants" and summarily shot since they were not members of the Armed Forces in uniform.

Arnold's response was to declare that CAP was an "Auxiliary" of the Army Air Corps.  He ordered that the members wear a modified Army uniform, and go out and kill Germans.  He had no legal authority to do this, but Arnold wasn't a lawyer.  Having an Air Corps general officer in command of the CAP helped this process along without any controversy.  Times were different then.

At that point, under the Geneva Convention and under US law, CAP became a combat asset of the Army Air Corps.  I don't know what "Some" people say about targets not being defined, since the mission was clear:  Find Germans off the coast of the United States and attack them.  This mission was carried out 73 times, with at least two resulting in German submarines being sunk.

We were, as an organzation, in "Limbo" for a while in 1947.  The Air Force was a new and stand-alone branch of service, but CAP was still the auxiliary of the Army Air Corps, which now did not exist.  In 1948 this was resolved when a law was passed making CAP the auxiliary of the Air Force, and we were given our missions that we still have today:  Cadet programs, Aerospce Education, and noncombat missions of the Air Force.  We are now dealing with exactly what "noncombat" means when it was codified into law by our elected representatives.

Could we deploy persons who are "Noncombatant" within the meaning of the Geneva Convention to a war zone?  Could we deploy trainers to a war zone on a mission that is unlikely to involve direct combat?  Could we train CAP pilots as Predator operators and (sitting in a non-combat zone in Nevada) have them bring Hellfires onto enemy forces in Afghanistan?  How far can we push the "Noncombat missions and programs" envelope, and what will happen if we push too far?  Who or what is the "Controlling legal authority" to use Algore's words?  Will we get a ticket from the Noncombat Police?

AFI's can be changed almost as easily as CAPR's.  They are something above notes on a dry-erase board, but they are short of "Carved in stone."

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think it is funny that people say "oh yeah, I'd go in a minute."  There are a lot of people who say they'd do something because they'll never actually get called out on it.

It is easy for someone that is medically disqualified from service to say, "I'd join in a heartbeat...if I could." because there isn't anyway they actually could and actually have to serve.

I honestly can not tell you what my answer to this question would be, because I have never and will never be put in a situation where I would actually have to make that choice.

I am very grateful for those who have actually made the choice to serve, my wife is one of them.  The stress and worry put on those who do serve about leaving their families and the possibility of not returning is difficult to manage for many service members. 

I just think that unless you are in a position where you actually have to make that choice, you can't make one because you won't have the actual factors involved in making it.

I know what my decision would be, Jimmy.

The same as it was in 1966 when I enlisted, in 1969 when I got orders to Vietnam, in 1986 when I was sent to Central America, and in 1991 when my reserve unit was called up for the First Gulf War.

If the waived my high blood pressure I'd be packing now.

The US Cavalry used to recycle their old horses, once they became unfit for use in battle, to pull wagons.  They kept them until they became too old to pull wagons, then they cwould butcher them and serve them for dinner in the mess hall.  It was noted that once the old wagon-puller horses smelled or heard a battle, that they became agitated, hard to control, their conditioning made them want to join the battle with the other horses.

Now I know how they felt.

[brasda91]

We can track the insurgents with our urban DF teams.

You laugh, but the guy in this picture, a former C/Lt Col of mine is a platoon leader in Iraq right now and as he said in a letter to me, "we're using some equipment much like we used in CAP when I was a cadet, but here we're tracking people.....okay, I can't say much about it, but everyone wants to know how I learned to use this DF type equipment so well.".

Can you say "HOOAH!"  BTDT with the 82nd.

[ddelaney103]

INCORRECT?

go to the Maryland defense force web site and explain how an entire unit of the defense force is airlifted to bosnia under orders from NATO using USAF assets working as a USAF or US Army field unit is a figment of my imagination???

When was the last CAP unit shipped overseas to work for NATO, are we even in the same catagory? are we really an asset? can we become more of a military unit, or should we continue to be like boy scouts??

If you have a reference for this "Bosnia federalization" event, feel free to place in your post.

The 10th Medical Regiment talks about sending five MDDF physicians and a dentist to Bosnia  for four-weeks (http://www.mddefenseforce.org/units/medical/index.php), which is not exactly a "whole unit" as medical units rarely form fire teams.

Finally, there is a big difference b/w "deployment" and "federalization."  I, as a DoD Civilian, have been deployed to foreign countries.  I wore a uniform (with civilian distinguishing  markings) and worked alongside Soldiers, civilians and contractors.  I was not, however, federalized - I had no military status nor could I be punished (besides being sent home and fired) for not following orders.  If I had to guess, the status of those doctors and dentist were probably along the same lines.

However, I could be wrong.  Feel free to post your references that show differently.

As to CAP, I don't think we bring enough unique skillsets to the game to go anyplace.  The only "USAF equivalent" assets we have are Chaplains.  Could this expand to doctors, nurses and lawyers?  Possibly, but just as the average MDDF'er doesn't go many places, it would be the same for CAP.

If you really want to serve, you either join up or bring something to the table they can use.  CAP doesn't do either of these.

As a side note, I helped bring a pharmacist into CAP.  She gets to be a Captain, but is unlikely to ever push a pill in service to her country.  If the situation repeated itself, I'd push someone like that towards the MDDF, where they could put their skills to use.

[PA Guy]

INCORRECT?

go to the Maryland defense force web site and explain how an entire unit of the defense force is airlifted to bosnia under orders from NATO using USAF assets working as a USAF or US Army field unit is a figment of my imagination???

When was the last CAP unit shipped overseas to work for NATO, are we even in the same catagory? are we really an asset? can we become more of a military unit, or should we continue to be like boy scouts??

The folks from the Maryland SDF went as employees of the State of Maryland.  They were issued Invitational Travel Orders from DOD that authorizes DOD travel support etc. These orders start out "You are invited .......  They were not federalized.

CA has done something similar 2-3 times, deploying a medical team primarily composed of DMAT members, to Ukraine to support and augment CA ANG medical teams. They went as employees of CA/EMSA and had the above mentioned Invitational Travel Orders.

[James Shaw]

I got a call about a year ago from someone I had served in the Army with back in the mid 90's. He was now a recruiter and knew my feelings about serving with the military. He presented a really good package of benfits and a very genrous SRB. The problem was that I would have had to go in at E5 just like I got out. It has been a while but I actually considered it. I figured it up and the base pay for the weekend would have been about $300 dollars. After looking at the weekends I would be gone and the difference in my pay for the year I would have lost $10K a year. Me and my wife REALLY had a discussion about it. I even talked about trying to go back in as a 2LT to try and makeup for the money. My age (almost) 40 precluded from that. I still wish I could do it to this day but I wont make my family pay for my desire. I have served in the Navy and Army and with the CAP. That will have to be enough I guess!

[ZigZag911]

Being a non-combatant doesn't mean "no combat zone". It means the individual doesn't carry arms or actively engage in combat actions. Hearing a confession, or patching up a soldier on the battlefield are still combat roles, but not combatant roles.

You'd have to look up what the Air Force or DOD considers non-combat roles. But we wouldn't be permitted to deploy to a combat zone in any role.

That was pretty much my point....because we support the AF non-combat role, it seems unlikely we would be deployed to a combat zone, where even the efforts of unarmed non-combatant personnel support the work of the combatant members.

[Hawk200]

Being a non-combatant doesn't mean "no combat zone". It means the individual doesn't carry arms or actively engage in combat actions. Hearing a confession, or patching up a soldier on the battlefield are still combat roles, but not combatant roles.

You'd have to look up what the Air Force or DOD considers non-combat roles. But we wouldn't be permitted to deploy to a combat zone in any role.

That was pretty much my point....because we support the AF non-combat role, it seems unlikely we would be deployed to a combat zone, where even the efforts of unarmed non-combatant personnel support the work of the combatant members.

My apologies, I took it as a question rather than a point being made. Sorry to ruin it.

[ZigZag911]

My apologies, I took it as a question rather than a point being made. Sorry to ruin it.

Thanks, Hawk, but not necessary....I took no offense, just trying to be clear.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Delaney:

I'd have to check to be sure, but I think that civilians accompanying a US Armed Force in an overseas area are subject to the UCMJ.

[Stonewall]

Yes, that is true.  For instance, an AAFES employee in Iraq running the BX is subject to UCMJ.

[RiverAux]

The MDDF did not get "federalized" in any sense of the word when they went to Bosnia with the Air National Guard and neither did they when they went to Katrina and nor did the group now (or very recently) who were sent to an Indian Reservation in (South Dakota?) to help with medical stuff.  They did this under state orders. 

For more background, read the monograh on medical deployment teams at the SDF Publication Center:  http://www.sdfpc.org/sdfpc7.htm

[lordmonar]

I think you guys are missing a vital point in the "CAP can be Deployed" argument.

While the SECAF can use CAP "the Corporation" in any non-combat role....he and CAP still has NO authroity over the members of CAP. 

So he can tell CAP to send Medics to Iraq, or to man admin jobs here stateside....but CAP can't and the SECAF can't tell me to leave my job for 6 months to pull this tasking.

[RiverAux]

Very true.  However, they could ask for volunteers willing to do that or just about anything else.

[ddelaney103]

Delaney:

I'd have to check to be sure, but I think that civilians accompanying a US Armed Force in an overseas area are subject to the UCMJ.

True enough, but what constitutes a "lawful order" varies b/w military and civilian.  I can bear arms and defend myself, esp. against bandits and other armed non-military types, but a civilian can't be ordered into battle.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think you guys are missing a vital point in the "CAP can be Deployed" argument.

While the SECAF can use CAP "the Corporation" in any non-combat role....he and CAP still has NO authroity over the members of CAP. 

So he can tell CAP to send Medics to Iraq, or to man admin jobs here stateside....but CAP can't and the SECAF can't tell me to leave my job for 6 months to pull this tasking.

Like anything else in CAP, it would be done by volunteers.  I'd volunteer.  I don't like my job anyway.

[Nomex Maximus]

Jim:

. . .

Hap Arnold was furious that targets were presented, but nobody was available to strike, and ordered that the CAP planes be armed.  While his technical people worked out weight-and-balance issues and designed a series of bomb racks that could be fitted to general aviation airplanes at the time

. . .

So, where could you put bomb racks on a 172? Or perhaps We could carry some hellfire missiles. We'd have a mission pilot fly the airplane and a mission observer work the hellfire electronics...

[Al Sayre]

Hard points can (and have been) mounted on the wings just outboard of the struts.  While the Load capability is limited, a small rocket pod or 50 lb bomb could be easily attached.

[SarDragon]

Jim:

. . .

Hap Arnold was furious that targets were presented, but nobody was available to strike, and ordered that the CAP planes be armed.  While his technical people worked out weight-and-balance issues and designed a series of bomb racks that could be fitted to general aviation airplanes at the time

. . .

So, where could you put bomb racks on a 172? Or perhaps We could carry some hellfire missiles. We'd have a mission pilot fly the airplane and a mission observer work the hellfire electronics...

I think anything in the CAP a/c fleet would be overweight with a HELLFIRE system installed (except maybe the GA-8).

Missile - 100 lb
Launcher - two rail version weighs 97 lb empty
Avionics - heavy. The Cobra NTS TSU requires a hoist, making it heavier than 200 lb, and the remainder of the boxes are an additional 100 lb or so. The fixed wing systems are similar in overall weight.

And my all-time favorite Q - who's going to pay for it?

[jpravain]

No, I would not go. I support our troops 100% but I do not support the war or the present political leadership. (opening a can of worms)