CAP Talk

Hello and happy holidays!

I have spent around an hour or so doing research and have referred to 39-1 regarding the winter watch cap. For ABUs, the green watch cap is authorized, but its hard to find/get them now. The black watch cap is authorized but for the BDU but they are phased out. Vanguard only sells black watch cap, so I assume it goes with ABUs? I have seen pictures on the internet with the black watch cap in ABU uniform. Personally, I have trouble understanding the format of 39-1, I have talked to my chain of command, but they were unsure swell and said I'd be fine either way, but I like to go by the books, (that's just the way I am). Notice on the paragraph's below it specifies the ABU green cap's uniform designation, but not the black, (I have cited the regs). So, my question is, can I wear a black watch cap in ABU's?


Thank you and here is a quoted part of 39-1 regarding this:

6.2.6. Black Watch Cap (Figure 6.16).
6.2.6.1. Cap will fit snugly over top of head (tight fit). Adjust cap so it may fit squarely on head. Fold edge of cap all the way around, adjust crease so that the folded edge is no more than 3 inches wide. The back of the cap should run across the nape of the neck and the front should rest within 1⁄2 inch of the eyebrows. The watch cap should reflect a diagonal line across the ears moving downwards, from front to back. No bunching and no sagging.
  material.
6.2.6.2. It will be commercially designed, plain, solid black knit or fleece/microfiber 6.2.6.3. Grade insignia is not worn on the black watch cap.


6.2.5. GreenWatchCap(Figure6.14).
6.2.5.1. Cap will fit snugly over top of head (tight fit). Adjust cap so it may fit squarely on head. Fold edge of cap all the way around, adjust crease so that the folded edge is no more than 3 inches wide. The back of the cap should run across the nape of the neck and the front should rest within 1⁄2 inch of the eyebrows. The watch cap should reflect a diagonal line across the ears moving downwards, from front to back. No bunching and no sagging.
6.2.5.2. Grade insignia is not worn on the watch cap.
6.2.5.3. Cap will be worn only with the Airman Battle Uniform.


and below you can see the black watch cap in ABUs.

(https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/fremonttribune.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/5/5e/55e359ae-7cdb-5954-aa7d-b39b0fee241b/61c109c004ef6.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C776)

image credit to: https://fremonttribune.com/news/local/watch-now-civil-air-patrol-honors-fremont-military-graves-with-wreaths-across-america/article_ba133e1d-775f-5a2b-8dbe-1a8b4aff2f2c.html

I don't see anything in what you quoted that prohibits wearing the black watch cap with ABUs.  They did go out of their way to prevent anything but the green one with ABUs.  Lacking any other clarification I would assume you could wear the black one with ABUs. 

That being said, with uniforms if something isn't specifically authorized, it isn't allowed....

The only mention of the black watch cap besides the description, is under the BDU section, stating it is authorized headgear for that uniform. Being that it isn't specifically authorized for ABU's, I would argue it isn't.

That said, we always lean toward safety first, which is why a Cadet can wear a civilian coat over an Air Force style uniform if they don't have one that meets regs. In that vein, I would much rather see a Cadet in a black watch cap because that's all he/she had, than wearing a non-insulated ABU cap and potentially sustaining a cold weather injury.

Quote from: Capt Thompson on December 28, 2021, 01:32:08 PMThe only mention of the black watch cap besides the description, is under the BDU section, stating it is authorized headgear for that uniform. Being that it isn't specifically authorized for ABU's, I would argue it isn't.

That said, we always lean toward safety first, which is why a Cadet can wear a civilian coat over an Air Force style uniform if they don't have one that meets regs. In that vein, I would much rather see a Cadet in a black watch cap because that's all he/she had, than wearing a non-insulated ABU cap and potentially sustaining a cold weather injury.

Strongly disagree with your claim that cadets can wear civilian coats over USAF style uniforms (see R39-1, 1.1.5, below - they are not allowed to). "But, but, Safety" is no excuse for knowingly busting the regs. Get them in the correct USAF style uniform, set the UOD to warm civilian clothing (all civilian/no USAF style), replan the activity so that they are outdoors for only brief periods, or send them home.

Sorry. Complain to the NHQ Uniform Board, not me...

V/R
Spam

CAPR 39-1 3 March 2020
1.1.5. Oversight.
1.1.5.1. COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within unless there is an approved supplement in accordance with paragraph 13.1 of this regulation. Variation from this publication or approved supplements is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear with uniforms. Local commanders do not have the authority to waive grooming and appearance standards. [emphasis added]

... Tailing on, noted the member wearing a BDU pattern field jacket with ABUs in the cited picture. This isn't allowed either since we've sunset the BDU uniform. Were I the activity commander, I'd have had him in a regular ABU or blues uniform, authorized him to come in warm, all civilian clothing, or asked him to go home. (Done it before).

Exact same principle as cadets (and adults) who show up unshaved or with long hair. Fix, get out of USAF style, or go home (thanks for playing). Safety is not a crutch or excuse for this.

V/r
Spam

Quote from: Spam on December 28, 2021, 05:04:29 PM

Quote from: Capt Thompson on December 28, 2021, 01:32:08 PMThe only mention of the black watch cap besides the description, is under the BDU section, stating it is authorized headgear for that uniform. Being that it isn't specifically authorized for ABU's, I would argue it isn't.

That said, we always lean toward safety first, which is why a Cadet can wear a civilian coat over an Air Force style uniform if they don't have one that meets regs. In that vein, I would much rather see a Cadet in a black watch cap because that's all he/she had, than wearing a non-insulated ABU cap and potentially sustaining a cold weather injury.

Strongly disagree with your claim that cadets can wear civilian coats over USAF style uniforms (see R39-1, 1.1.5, below - they are not allowed to). "But, but, Safety" is no excuse for knowingly busting the regs. Get them in the correct USAF style uniform, set the UOD to warm civilian clothing (all civilian/no USAF style), replan the activity so that they are outdoors for only brief periods, or send them home.

Sorry. Complain to the NHQ Uniform Board, not me...

V/R
Spam

CAPR 39-1 3 March 2020
1.1.5. Oversight.
1.1.5.1. COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within unless there is an approved supplement in accordance with paragraph 13.1 of this regulation. Variation from this publication or approved supplements is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear with uniforms. Local commanders do not have the authority to waive grooming and appearance standards. [emphasis added]

Here's the problem with the way that our regulations are written.

Quote from: CAPR 60-22.6.13.4. Uniforms. In cold weather, commanders and activity directors will prioritize protection from the elements over adherence to CAP uniform standards.

So not only is it allowed by NHQ, it is encouraged to wear whatever is necessary to stay warm, at least for cadets.

Here is a link to green watch caps.  Not sure if it is correct.

https://www.militarystealsandsurplus.com/collections/clothing/products/military-issued-acrylic-knit-watch-cap-usa-made-foliage-green-new

I opened a ticket last summer - The reply from HQ was:

"Only a green watch cap can be worn with the ABU uniform (paragraph 6.2.5 of CAPR 39-2)."

Quote from: jeders on December 28, 2021, 06:38:18 PM

Quote from: Spam on December 28, 2021, 05:04:29 PM

Quote from: Capt Thompson on December 28, 2021, 01:32:08 PMThe only mention of the black watch cap besides the description, is under the BDU section, stating it is authorized headgear for that uniform. Being that it isn't specifically authorized for ABU's, I would argue it isn't.

That said, we always lean toward safety first, which is why a Cadet can wear a civilian coat over an Air Force style uniform if they don't have one that meets regs. In that vein, I would much rather see a Cadet in a black watch cap because that's all he/she had, than wearing a non-insulated ABU cap and potentially sustaining a cold weather injury.

Strongly disagree with your claim that cadets can wear civilian coats over USAF style uniforms (see R39-1, 1.1.5, below - they are not allowed to). "But, but, Safety" is no excuse for knowingly busting the regs. Get them in the correct USAF style uniform, set the UOD to warm civilian clothing (all civilian/no USAF style), replan the activity so that they are outdoors for only brief periods, or send them home.

Sorry. Complain to the NHQ Uniform Board, not me...

V/R
Spam

CAPR 39-1 3 March 2020
1.1.5. Oversight.
1.1.5.1. COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within unless there is an approved supplement in accordance with paragraph 13.1 of this regulation. Variation from this publication or approved supplements is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear with uniforms. Local commanders do not have the authority to waive grooming and appearance standards. [emphasis added]

Here's the problem with the way that our regulations are written.

Quote from: CAPR 60-22.6.13.4. Uniforms. In cold weather, commanders and activity directors will prioritize protection from the elements over adherence to CAP uniform standards.

So not only is it allowed by NHQ, it is encouraged to wear whatever is necessary to stay warm, at least for cadets.

NHQ hasn't really allowed it, there's just a conflict between two regulations. So what we need is a decision by NHQ on which one will prevail.
Of course CAPR 60-2 governs the Cadet Protection Program while CAPR 39-1 governs CAP Uniform Wear.
So a flip of the coin by NHQ is in order.

NHQ is responsible for the mess the regulations are in, including
all the conflicts with uniform wear.

Tie always goes to the runner member.

The last thing CAP's retention needs is cadets penalized because the NUC and other OPRs
can't reconcile the regulations and policies, even ones that have been broken and
pointed out for years, across multi iterations of various publications.

Sending a cadet home because of non-reg outerwear, or having them dress
in civilian clothing is not the proper answer.  Not only does that violate other
regs, but it does not serve the cadet, or the organizaiton.

Also in the mix is that you can't require anything other then the MBU unless it's issued.

Quote from: PHall on December 28, 2021, 10:31:43 PMNHQ hasn't really allowed it, there's just a conflict between two regulations. So what we need is a decision by NHQ on which one will prevail.
Of course CAPR 60-2 governs the Cadet Protection Program while CAPR 39-1 governs CAP Uniform Wear.
So a flip of the coin by NHQ is in order.

Nah - much easier to ignore it for decades and just hope it goes away.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 28, 2021, 11:02:35 PM

Quote from: PHall on December 28, 2021, 10:31:43 PMNHQ hasn't really allowed it, there's just a conflict between two regulations. So what we need is a decision by NHQ on which one will prevail. Of course CAPR 60-2 governs the Cadet Protection Program while CAPR 39-1 governs CAP Uniform Wear.So a flip of the coin by NHQ is in order.

Nah - much easier to ignore it for decades and just hope it goes away.

The answer is to let the cadets wear the grey & white with the same insignia that goes on the blues.  Problem solved.  Nothing else different, same H/W grooming and everything else, just an option for those who cannot afford or just can't get the full USAF setup.

I have seen many, many squadrons that make up something local to accomplish the same thing, that bears no resemblance to anything in 39-1 except it may qualify for flying Gliders.

Quote from: jeders on December 28, 2021, 06:38:18 PMSo not only is it allowed by NHQ, it is encouraged to wear whatever is necessary to stay warm, at least for cadets.

Mr. Spam is aware. He didn't like it when the exemption was codified in the cadet protection regulation and chose to ignore it at the time it was released and discussed here and it would appear he chooses to continue ignore the regulation to this day. It was unusual for one of the most intelligent and articulate CAPTalk posters to suddenly act as though he lacked simple comprehension skills, but it was the form of protest he chose to use.

So for all of our cadet leaders, regardless of senior or cadet status, as of the date of this thread it is completely legal (and in fact, required based on the use of the term will in the regulation) for cadets to wear civilian clothing with their USAF-style uniform if it's necessary based on the weather. Sending a cadet home because they wore their civilian jacket over their ABUs is completely contrary to the cadet regulation and opens leaders to formal complaints from their members (which likely aren't going to result in anything more than the leaders being reminded to follow regulations).

Certainly a pertinent topic with winter encampment photos being posted on social media the past couple of days. The Pacific Region encampment for example looked a bit chilly.

Quote from: Fubar on December 29, 2021, 08:04:18 AM

Quote from: jeders on December 28, 2021, 06:38:18 PMSo not only is it allowed by NHQ, it is encouraged to wear whatever is necessary to stay warm, at least for cadets.

Mr. Spam is aware. He didn't like it when the exemption was codified in the cadet protection regulation and chose to ignore it at the time it was released and discussed here and it would appear he chooses to continue ignore the regulation to this day. It was unusual for one of the most intelligent and articulate CAPTalk posters to suddenly act as though he lacked simple comprehension skills, but it was the form of protest he chose to use.

So for all of our cadet leaders, regardless of senior or cadet status, as of the date of this thread it is completely legal (and in fact, required based on the use of the term will in the regulation) for cadets to wear civilian clothing with their USAF-style uniform if it's necessary based on the weather. Sending a cadet home because they wore their civilian jacket over their ABUs is completely contrary to the cadet regulation and opens leaders to formal complaints from their members (which likely aren't going to result in anything more than the leaders being reminded to follow regulations).

Certainly a pertinent topic with winter encampment photos being posted on social media the past couple of days. The Pacific Region encampment for example looked a bit chilly.

Sure I was aware, and as is appropriate when a conflict in the regs is discovered I sought Commanders Guidance. In this case, that officer is still in my chain (as a Region Commander) and I'm still observing that advice: stick with the long standing admonition of the approved uniform regs as I cited. There are other measures I've cited (e.g. civilian clothing) besides sending people home as a last measure.

The key is in setting and communicating expectations, which frankly is pretty clear throughout 39-1, 60-1 (cf. Table 1, "proper wear of the uniform", 3.1.6.1 "proper wear of the uniform is required", and the Cadet Oath ("I pledge that I will... wear my uniform properly") as opposed to this singular exception in the Cadet Protection policy, 60-2, which appears in conflict with all other references and is the source of the problem.

Of course "comprehension skills" does remain a local barrier, as noted.
;D

V/r
Spam

The answer isn't to send cadets home. The answer is to plan for the weather by reading forecasts, having a written activity plan/order, and instructing everyone on what to wear and the alternatives if uniformity cannot be maintained.

It's one thing to plan for conditions and have to adapt when conditions are extremely different from what you anticipated (e.g., you planned for it to be 60 degrees but it ended up being 45 degrees and raining and needed everyone to don whatever they had to stay warm). It's another to plan for certain conditions and fully expecting, if not allowing, everyone to wear whatever they want. If you know it's going to be 45 degrees and raining, and you know your squadron members don't have cold/wet weather gear, and you're expecting them to wear whatever raincoats and rubber boots they want, then that's on you failing to appropriately plan and supervise your members.

And it's not just cadets; I see senior members do it, too. I can't even count the number of times I've had to fork over my gloves or fleece to cadets, seniors, and even parents who didn't come prepared.

Ask yourself: Can this activity be conducted safely and effectively in civilian attire given the weather forecast/environmental conditions we expect to operate in?

On two occasions over the past 6 months, I have said to wear civilian clothing. In one case, it's going to be 80 degrees and downpouring, and we don't all have the appropriate uniform items; let's just wear civies, train, and do what we're here to do and not worry about how we look at that point. In another case, it's going to be cold, misty/drizzling, and we're going to plan to be protected from the elements. In both cases, I had everyone way more comfortable and wearing much more appropriate attire that didn't distract from the activity while maintaining maximum safety.


If you are telling people to do whatever they want before the activity starts, you're not advocating safety at that point; you're advocating non-compliance and using "safety" as a crutch/cop-out.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 30, 2021, 02:38:08 PMThe answer isn't to send cadets home. The answer is to plan for the weather by reading forecasts, having a written activity plan/order, and instructing everyone on what to wear and the alternatives if uniformity cannot be maintained.

It's one thing to plan for conditions and have to adapt when conditions are extremely different from what you anticipated (e.g., you planned for it to be 60 degrees but it ended up being 45 degrees and raining and needed everyone to don whatever they had to stay warm). It's another to plan for certain conditions and fully expecting, if not allowing, everyone to wear whatever they want. If you know it's going to be 45 degrees and raining, and you know your squadron members don't have cold/wet weather gear, and you're expecting them to wear whatever raincoats and rubber boots they want, then that's on you failing to appropriately plan and supervise your members.

And it's not just cadets; I see senior members do it, too. I can't even count the number of times I've had to fork over my gloves or fleece to cadets, seniors, and even parents who didn't come prepared.

Ask yourself: Can this activity be conducted safely and effectively in civilian attire given the weather forecast/environmental conditions we expect to operate in?

On two occasions over the past 6 months, I have said to wear civilian clothing. In one case, it's going to be 80 degrees and downpouring, and we don't all have the appropriate uniform items; let's just wear civies, train, and do what we're here to do and not worry about how we look at that point. In another case, it's going to be cold, misty/drizzling, and we're going to plan to be protected from the elements. In both cases, I had everyone way more comfortable and wearing much more appropriate attire that didn't distract from the activity while maintaining maximum safety.


If you are telling people to do whatever they want before the activity starts, you're not advocating safety at that point; you're advocating non-compliance and using "safety" as a crutch/cop-out.

So two weeks ago we had O-Flights. It was bitter cold that morning, and Cadets had to spend some time on the tarmac waiting on planes, doing preflight etc. Flying activities require a CAP uniform, I can't say let's just wear civvies that day, but it was far too cold to be in ABU's without outerwear. Cadets wore civilian coats that day, not due to failure to plan, but because safety takes precedence, and in this case the CP regs overrule 39-1.

Quote from: Spam on December 28, 2021, 05:04:29 PM

Quote from: Capt Thompson on December 28, 2021, 01:32:08 PMThe only mention of the black watch cap besides the description, is under the BDU section, stating it is authorized headgear for that uniform. Being that it isn't specifically authorized for ABU's, I would argue it isn't.

That said, we always lean toward safety first, which is why a Cadet can wear a civilian coat over an Air Force style uniform if they don't have one that meets regs. In that vein, I would much rather see a Cadet in a black watch cap because that's all he/she had, than wearing a non-insulated ABU cap and potentially sustaining a cold weather injury.

Strongly disagree with your claim that cadets can wear civilian coats over USAF style uniforms (see R39-1, 1.1.5, below - they are not allowed to). "But, but, Safety" is no excuse for knowingly busting the regs. Get them in the correct USAF style uniform, set the UOD to warm civilian clothing (all civilian/no USAF style), replan the activity so that they are outdoors for only brief periods, or send them home.

Sorry. Complain to the NHQ Uniform Board, not me...

V/R
Spam

CAPR 39-1 3 March 2020
1.1.5. Oversight.
1.1.5.1. COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within unless there is an approved supplement in accordance with paragraph 13.1 of this regulation. Variation from this publication or approved supplements is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear with uniforms. Local commanders do not have the authority to waive grooming and appearance standards. [emphasis added]

60-2 conflicts with this take.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 30, 2021, 02:38:08 PMThe answer isn't to send cadets home. The answer is ...
If you are telling people to do whatever they want before the activity starts, you're not advocating safety at that point; you're advocating non-compliance and using "safety" as a crutch/cop-out.

As usual Hornet has completely captured this in a better way than I could. Complete agreement with his entire post!

Bravo Zulu, Hornet.
Spam

Quote from: Capt Thompson on December 30, 2021, 02:50:15 PMSo two weeks ago we had O-Flights. It was bitter cold that morning, and Cadets had to spend some time on the tarmac waiting on planes, doing preflight etc. Flying activities require a CAP uniform, I can't say let's just wear civvies that day, but it was far too cold to be in ABU's without outerwear. Cadets wore civilian coats that day, not due to failure to plan, but because safety takes precedence, and in this case the CP regs overrule 39-1.

So what prevented you from declaring the UOD to be PT uniform with full layered warm outerwear?

(Not trying to be sassy here Captain, just asking seriously - I appreciate your position).

I once had a fellow officer commanding a brand new school squadron call me with this same issue, trying to get financially disadvantaged new cadets (LOTS of them) into the air, and the cold wx was an added complexity. We toyed with dumb ideas like scrounging four full uniforms/coats and having the 36 cadets trade off as they reported to fly.. and finally settled on the PT uniform approach to maximize the focus on learning. We ran it past the WG/CC and were approved to press.

BTW, that fellow officer is now our current WG/CC, so he's probably likely to continue to approve such measures, I'd think. I also see lots of CAP flight academies and NCSAs go with shorts/polos, at least from the pictures, so there would seem to be some precedent beyond mine.

V/r
Spam

Quote from: Spam on December 30, 2021, 05:22:12 PMlots of CAP flight academies and NCSAs go with shorts/polos, at least from the pictures, so there would seem to be some precedent beyond mine.

In most cases these are formally designated activity uniforms approved in advance, often
with (sometimes dubious) justification, but approved nonetheless by someone with the authority to do so.

That's different then an adhoc decision in the moment, which potentially puts everyone at risk.

Quote from: Capt Thompson on December 30, 2021, 02:50:15 PMSo two weeks ago we had O-Flights. It was bitter cold that morning, and Cadets had to spend some time on the tarmac waiting on planes, doing preflight etc. Flying activities require a CAP uniform, I can't say let's just wear civvies that day, but it was far too cold to be in ABU's without outerwear. Cadets wore civilian coats that day, not due to failure to plan, but because safety takes precedence, and in this case the CP regs overrule 39-1.

I think that would be a good opportunity to reassess the conditions of the activity via risk management review.

I understand that some smaller airports may not have a facility in which personnel could huddle indoors. Is that the most reasonable/practicable location to conduct O-Flights from during the winter?

Let's refer to the Cold Weather precautions:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/library/cadet-weather

If cadets are outside for an extensive period of time, there should be a "warming break." This is generally indoors, or at a heated location (fire pit, portable heater, etc.). If there is a lack of opportunity to provide that warming break, I'm not sure that proper risk management is being applied to ensure both safety and compliance.

I would propose that if the precautions cannot be adhered to whilst maintaining compliance, then maybe the RM should consider the go/no-go decision to continue or cancel the activity.

Because the cadets don't have the appropriate uniform to be, given the nature of safe operations, is reason enough for me to say, "You know, I just don't think we should do this." Once the idea of should comes into play, it's probably better to just call it at that point and postpone.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 30, 2021, 05:53:12 PMThat's different then an adhoc decision in the moment, which potentially puts everyone at risk.

This.

The whole subject of "can we wear whatever we want for safety" is situated upon the question: Is this a decision that was made before the activity, or after the activity already started?

If the decision was made before an activity to wear whatever for the sake of whatever, that's terrible planning and intentional non-compliance.

If the decision was made after the activity started that we need to wear whatever for the sake of immediate response to safety concerns, then action is appropriate, but an After-Action Review should be conducted to identify if there were any gaps in planning that can be mitigated/avoided in the future.

Quote from: Spam on December 30, 2021, 05:12:52 PMAs usual Hornet has completely captured this in a better way than I could. Complete agreement with his entire post!

Bravo Zulu, Hornet.

*waves wings*

Quote from: Spam on December 30, 2021, 05:22:12 PMSo what prevented you from declaring the UOD to be PT uniform with full layered warm outerwear?

Please define "PT Uniform" as stated in CAPR 39-1. We have dress uniforms, working uniforms, flight duty uniforms and special uniforms, but if you search PT Uniform you get 0 results from the regs. Now we're saying, in order to avoid a Cadet wearing a civilian jacket over a complete and approved CAP uniform, which is allowed under Cadet Protection regs, we'll get approval for them to wear non-CAP civilian attire, which is completely against regs.

NCSA's have approval for modifications to the uniform, due to the fact they aren't just in the air for an hour long O-Flight, but under the beating sun for most of the day. NESA, for instance, had students wear a NESA shirt with black shorts as an approved event uniform. Why would I go through the trouble of trying to get the Wing CC to approve a special event uniform for Saturday O-Flights, when they can wear ABU's with a civilian jacket per regs?

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 30, 2021, 06:56:46 PMI think that would be a good opportunity to reassess the conditions of the activity via risk management review.

Again, we're talking about 10 minutes on a cold tarmac waiting for the plane to be sanitized from the previous crew, maybe 15 minutes to preflight the plane, plus the ability to stay warm while in the plane. I'm not calling the activity because it's cold, when I can easily ask the Cadets who don't have a Gore-Tex to instead wear a comparable civilian jacket, which is approved under CAPR 60-2 2.6.13.4.

2.6.13.4. Uniforms. In cold weather, commanders and activity directors will prioritize protection
from the elements over adherence to CAP uniform standards.

Quote from: Capt Thompson on December 30, 2021, 07:41:19 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 30, 2021, 06:56:46 PMI think that would be a good opportunity to reassess the conditions of the activity via risk management review.

Again, we're talking about 10 minutes on a cold tarmac waiting for the plane to be sanitized from the previous crew, maybe 15 minutes to preflight the plane, plus the ability to stay warm while in the plane. I'm not calling the activity because it's cold, when I can easily ask the Cadets who don't have a Gore-Tex to instead wear a comparable civilian jacket, which is approved under CAPR 60-2 2.6.13.4.

2.6.13.4. Uniforms. In cold weather, commanders and activity directors will prioritize protection
from the elements over adherence to CAP uniform standards.

Okay, let's do the regulation dance...

CAPR 39-1, 1.1.5.1
COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within unless there is an approved supplement in accordance with paragraph 13.1 of this regulation. Variation from this publication or approved supplements is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear with uniforms.

CAPR 39-1, 1.2.4
Wearing the USAF-style uniform is a privilege extended to CAP members who meet weight (see Attachment 2) and grooming standards (see paragraph 3.2). Commanders and activity directors are expected to enforce these standards and ensure that members wearing USAF-style uniforms understand these requirements, that members wearing USAF-style uniforms accept personal responsibility for meeting these requirements and are expected to provide remedial education and counseling if required.

CAPR 39-1 2.10.4
2.10.4. Determine acceptable civilian clothing for wear at CAP activities and may prohibit clothing that is offensive for moral, legal, or safety reasons.

CAPR 39-1, 2.11
Members in leadership roles must be knowledgeable of uniform and personal grooming and appearance standards (regardless of gender of subordinates) and set the example of acceptable standards. Leaders will ensure subordinate members are in compliance with this regulation and all applicable supplements, take appropriate corrective action when they do not meet acceptable standards, apply CAP's Core Value of Respect, with respect both for the uniform and for the members involved.

CAPR 160-1, 2.4.6
The member placed in charge of any CAP mission, activity or event (such as activity director, incident commander (IC), ground team leader, cadet leader, etc.) is responsible to ensure RM is conducted in the planning, execution and after-action assessment as outlined in chapters 3 and 4.

CAPR 160-1, 3.3.1
Deliberate RM planning refers to those situations when the full formal application of the complete 5-step process is warranted, including the use of CAP Form 160, Deliberate Risk Assessment Worksheet. The Deliberate RM process is usually reserved for large or complex CAP missions or activities and should be initiated well in advance of any activity or program execution.

CAPR 160-1, 3.3.1.1
The entire deliberate RM process must be completed and documented, to include signature of the member in charge of the activity or mission. Deliberate RM will be accomplished utilizing the CAP Form 160 in the following cases, or in similar cases where a thorough planning process is indicated.

CAPR 160-1, 3.3.1.1.2
Any time a squadron, wing or region activity is conducted for the first time, or at a new venue, or when there is a significant change in members involved in the planning, execution or supervision.

[CAPR 160-1, 3.3.1.2
When the events described in paragraph 3.3.1.1. happen on a recurring basis, with the same venue and similar events and plans, full deliberate RM is not required. In these cases, the previously accomplished risk assessment and plan, to include the previously accomplished CAP Form 160, may be used as a starting point. However, in all cases the following must still be accomplished and documented:

3.3.1.2.1. A new CAP Form 160 will be accomplished to reflect new event information, personnel, and a fresh assessment of new and current hazards, and approval of the planned event. The previously accomplished CAP Form 160 will be included as a supplement to the new CAP Form 160.

3.3.1.2.2. Ensure all hazards, risks, and controls listed on the previous CAPF 160 are still applicable to the event being planned, and resources are available to implement those controls. Review After-action Feedback and Lessons Learned (block 14) from previous CAPF 160.

CAPR 160-1, 3.7.2
Cold weather can also bring specific hazards and risks. Anytime extreme cold temperatures or prolonged exposure to the cold will present an increased risk of cold-related illness or injury, the activity plan will include specific controls to mitigate the effects of the cold. CAP guards against cold-related and wind-related injuries by following OSHA's protective strategies. For current OSHA guidance on cold weather strategies, refer to gocivilairpatrol.com/safety. For specific cold weather guidance related to Cadet Activities, refer to CAPR 60-1.



So let's recap here:
Nowhere in any of the above does it say to disregard compliance for the sake of safety. If you have a scheduled activity, it requires safety risk assessment and mitigation as part of the activity plan of which must be recorded.

If you are planning an activity and determining what to wear, it means that you're pre-planning the event and therefore need to consider the appropriate precautions through SRM. If you are determining that the appropriate precaution includes non-compliance, then you are not effectively/adequately mitigating risk. You need to conduct a further risk assessment to and determine what other controls that should be in place. If you cannot mitigate the risk to an acceptable level which ensures compliance prior to the start of the activity, then you should not proceed with the activity.

You missed this which basically trumps everything else...

"1.2.1. Individual members will obtain and maintain for wear either of the minimum basic uniforms
described here. These combinations meet the requirements of most CAP events. A commander may
require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary (such as requiring a specific uniform for participation in a National Cadet Special Activity) or if the uniform is supplied
without expense to the cadet."

Leaving NCSAs and encampments aside, prohibiting a cadet from participating in normal unit activities
because they do not have a given piece of regulation outerwear, hat, or other non-MBU uniform item
violates the above, not to mention the spirit of the Cadet Program and NHQ inclusivity policies.

NHQ has fundamentally ignored the issue of uniform procurement and expense, not to mention specifically
the outwear issue for decades, and worse, not only does it not even provide a source for many of
the required items, it has either actively quashed alternate vendors, or watched as the few sources
available to members (like AAFES), were shutout without warning or alternative.

This is an NHQ mess, and there's no single answer or solution that can comply with the competing
regulations and policies...

...except do your best for the cadets at the time.

This is why the multiform not a uniform is truly a problem.

If we had one field uniform, for both Senior and Cadet we might be able to maintain a supply room at squadron or group level where young cadets as they out grow a uniform they could donate it to the Supply Room, the same with seniors (we sometimes "outgrow" our uniforms too).

If we were all in OCPs, then we could get surplus from the Air Force, Space Force and Army and then we might be able to outfit cadets, at no cost, when they go to encampment.

One of my oldest friends was in CAP in the late 80s and early 90s as a Cadet, tells stories of going to a Wing Supply Room before an encampment and being fitted out with everything he needed... BDUs, boots, and LBE... before he went. All he needed to pay for was nametapes, CAP tapes, rank and sewing.

I wish we could get to that point again.

Quote from: Shuman 14 on December 31, 2021, 08:48:09 PMI wish we could get to that point again.

Me too. I had a similar experience as a cadet in the early 80s (except I mowed lawns to buy my own boots because size 12 narrow was the biggest they had in supply - my first FTX, with full rucks on mountain marches was horrific and bloody).

But (speculate with me here), if you were the USAF customer and you knew that your Auxiliary was knowingly disrespecting the (obsolete, former ABU) uniform, would you be highly motivated to approve CAP to wear, let a lone fund supplies of or defray the costs of, the current OCP uniform?

I can't. Better to wear no uniform (warm civvies) than to violate the Cadet Oath.

V/r
Jeff

Quote from: Shuman 14 on December 31, 2021, 08:48:09 PMOne of my oldest friends was in CAP in the late 80s and early 90s as a Cadet, tells stories of going to a Wing Supply Room before an encampment and being fitted out with everything he needed... BDUs, boots, and LBE... before he went. All he needed to pay for was nametapes, CAP tapes, rank and sewing.

I wish we could get to that point again.

This was more a casualty of BRAC then any specific uniform decisions.

Moving to OCPs wouldn't change the lack of military facilities with their ancillary and
unintended benefits.

Quote from: Spam on December 31, 2021, 08:59:00 PM

Quote from: Shuman 14 on December 31, 2021, 08:48:09 PMI wish we could get to that point again.

Me too. I had a similar experience as a cadet in the early 80s (except I mowed lawns to buy my own boots because size 12 narrow was the biggest they had in supply - my first FTX, with full rucks on mountain marches was horrific and bloody).

But (speculate with me here), if you were the USAF customer and you knew that your Auxiliary was knowingly disrespecting the (obsolete, former ABU) uniform, would you be highly motivated to approve CAP to wear, let a lone fund supplies of or defray the costs of, the current OCP uniform?

I can't. Better to wear no uniform (warm civvies) than to violate the Cadet Oath.

V/r
Jeff

I think they'd be more concerned if we let Cadets get frostbite or other cold injuries than any disrespect caused to a uniform they've tossed to the waste bin of history. Just saying.

The BDU and the ABU are no longer Air Force uniforms, they're camouflaged civilian clothing now. Perfect for hunting and paintballing and washing the car in on a Saturday afternoon in the summer.

But to speculate, if the USAF Customer came and complained, I would say "I know, it's such a shame, since the Air Force did away with the ABUs no one is producing ABUs or foliage green fleeces anymore. Our sole supplier is Vanguard and they provided substandard quality ABUs and carry very little in the way of cold weather gear. I truly wish we could wear OCPs, with the USAF, USSF and US Army all wearing the same uniforms, supplies of appropriate cold weather gear and uniforms would be much more easier to come by. Can you assist us with this?"

Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2021, 09:34:22 PM

Quote from: Shuman 14 on December 31, 2021, 08:48:09 PMOne of my oldest friends was in CAP in the late 80s and early 90s as a Cadet, tells stories of going to a Wing Supply Room before an encampment and being fitted out with everything he needed... BDUs, boots, and LBE... before he went. All he needed to pay for was nametapes, CAP tapes, rank and sewing.

I wish we could get to that point again.

This was more a casualty of BRAC then any specific uniform decisions.

Moving to OCPs wouldn't change the lack of military facilities with their ancillary and
unintended benefits.

Not following here, please explain how BRAC affected CAP supply rooms?

Quote from: Shuman 14 on December 31, 2021, 09:46:43 PMNot following here, please explain how BRAC affected CAP supply rooms?

By eliminating the bases and personnel that fed them.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2021, 10:23:51 PM

Quote from: Shuman 14 on December 31, 2021, 09:46:43 PMNot following here, please explain how BRAC affected CAP supply rooms?

By eliminating the bases and personnel that fed them.

Still not following. Please enlighten us.

Quote from: Shuman 14 on December 31, 2021, 08:48:09 PMOne of my oldest friends was in CAP in the late 80s and early 90s as a Cadet, tells stories of going to a Wing Supply Room before an encampment and being fitted out with everything he needed... BDUs, boots, and LBE... before he went. All he needed to pay for was nametapes, CAP tapes, rank and sewing.

I wish we could get to that point again.

Ah the old Wing Supply Room, this was a little known secret that I utilized quite a bit as a Cadet Commander in the 90's. Ours was run by our CAP-USAF liaison, and I could make an appointment on a Saturday and let him know what I was coming for, and he'd have it ready to go but also let me browse around and see if there was anything else I needed. Always stacks of BDU's, field jackets, the old 4 pocket service coats still in plastic, LBE's and ALICE packs. Always more than they had room for so he was always asking if I was sure I didn't need anything else. If he didn't have something he could get it from DRMO.

Quote from: PHall on December 31, 2021, 10:39:44 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2021, 10:23:51 PM

Quote from: Shuman 14 on December 31, 2021, 09:46:43 PMNot following here, please explain how BRAC affected CAP supply rooms?

By eliminating the bases and personnel that fed them.

Still not following. Please enlighten us.

Fewer bases scattered around the country and less people in the military mean that there are fewer squadrons near active bases that would have access to discarded uniforms. 

Of course each state at least has an Air NG base that could be a source of old uniforms.

Although my squadron and Wing HQ is in the same city as an AFB and I am unaware of any significant efforts in the last 20-odd years to really use this as a source of uniforms for CAP -- but then I wasn't involved in logistics so maybe it was something that we tried, but I am fairly sure never succeeded in. 

Those are all good points, but I think there are several other factors besides BRAC actions and post Cold War 1 drawdowns*. I am not a loggie by real life profession, but here's my take:

1. Changes in the DoD uniform and gear logistics system over the past 20 years have taken place, resulting in more of a "just in time" point of sale system, coupled with online ordering, than ever before. Therefore, we end up with fewer massive stocks (and local overstocks for CAP to pull from) on hand on various bases and installations. At the same time, CAP has moved from our own version (The Bookstore and CAP Supply Depot, and a few others like The Hock Shop) to a single for profit uniform supplier (Vanguard) and decentralized approved mx suppliers.

2. Changes in the CAP-USAF structure have dramatically gutted the number of qualified reservist LO/LNCOs to screen, freeze and stock surplus equipment from DRMOs.  Last time I've asked, we were down to just a few per Region, and they were very out of practice (it isn't a usual thing at all any more, as we even procure vehicles new build).

3. Fraud waste and abuse of the DRMO system by CAP members over the past few decades has resulted in the end of CAP members being allowed to screen/freeze uniforms/gear/vehicles. For example, one Wing had a few members who were screening and getting vehicles for CAP from the DRMO at a local SAC base, and selling them on the local used car market (hence the current provisions in our Logistics regs).  If you can ID pallets of gear/uniforms on the DRMO website (available publicly) you could theoretically flash that to your LO, but at the point where lots are being bid publicly that may be too late (don't know).

V/r
Spam

PS I would not bank on the new Cold War resulting in a glut of uniforms or gear for us, because of the structural factors listed. I say post CW1 since we're obviously fully into a second Cold War now, praying it won't go hot... be ready, teammates.

I know of squadrons that literally have a supply room (20' x 30') of uniform/equipment items. That doesn't do a lot of good for other units that either don't know that those supplies exist to even ask for assistance or don't have a good relationship with that unit.

Finding and allocating uniforms is a squadron issue, not a wing issue, no matter how much it may impact a cadet's ability to attend higher echelon activities. Let's face it: most squadrons get by because they bend the rules, and those same squadrons are the ones that send their cadets to activities where other members leave the activity saying, "Did you see those xxxxx cadets? They look like garbage."

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 01, 2022, 05:24:22 PMI know of squadrons that literally have a supply room (20' x 30') of uniform/equipment items. That doesn't do a lot of good for other units that either don't know that those supplies exist to even ask for assistance or don't have a good relationship with that unit.

Finding and allocating uniforms is a squadron issue, not a wing issue, no matter how much it may impact a cadet's ability to attend higher echelon activities. Let's face it: most squadrons get by because they bend the rules, and those same squadrons are the ones that send their cadets to activities where other members leave the activity saying, "Did you see those xxxxx cadets? They look like garbage."

Again, solid agreement here, Hornet. I've said for some time that adherence to the little stuff (uniform regs) is a leading index of hazardous attitudes (cf. FAAs hazardous attitudes from CRM training, "you can't tell me...!").  Either that, or self delusion is a factor when people delude themselves into thinking that because they CAN somehow squeeeeeeze themselves into USAF style, they should, compliance be hanged. I finally woke myself up from that about ten years ago, honestly.

So units like that merit increased command attention, because if we see people routinely skirting one reg, we need to start looking closer at adherence to CPP, logistics, finance, and airmanship standards because of that mindset.

V/r
Spam

Ref: FAA 5 hazardous attitudes.
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/04_phak_ch2.pdf (https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/04_phak_ch2.pdf)

Quote from: RiverAux on January 01, 2022, 01:25:00 PMFewer bases scattered around the country and less people in the military mean that there are fewer squadrons near active bases that would have access to discarded uniforms. 

Of course each state at least has an Air NG base that could be a source of old uniforms.

Although my squadron and Wing HQ is in the same city as an AFB and I am unaware of any significant efforts in the last 20-odd years to really use this as a source of uniforms for CAP -- but then I wasn't involved in logistics so maybe it was something that we tried, but I am fairly sure never succeeded in. 

Any unit near an AFB or ANG base really has no reason right now to NOT be literally swimming in ABUs.  My home squadron placed this box on a fairly well-traveled road on base one year ago, and has since collected in excess of 20,000 pounds (that's 10 tons) of ABUs. 

The unit hasn't been hoarding those uniforms, instead they've flooded the supply rooms of just about every squadron in their wing as well as many in their adjacent wings.

DRMO might no longer be a dependable source, but service members are always looking to discard uniforms due to uniform updates, body size changes, or leaving military service.  While they're not always in the "smallest" sizes many cadets need, they are free and could be altered for a reasonable cost by a skilled seamstress.  By providing place for people to drop off those uniforms, we can collect a lot.  With the phase-out of ABUs, we've been approached by units on base wanting to discard their hoards of other ABU-patterned items including gortex jackets, molle equipment, first aid kits, etc.

(http://mcchord.org/temp/Donation_Box1.jpg)

Quote from: baronet68 on January 01, 2022, 10:33:54 PMAny unit near an AFB or ANG base really has no reason right now to NOT be literally swimming in ABUs.

Most CAP squadrons aren't near AFB or ANG bases. Most AFBs seem to also have a unit onsite or in close proximity.

QuoteThe unit hasn't been hoarding those uniforms, instead they've flooded the supply rooms of just about every squadron in their wing as well as many in their adjacent wings.

That's definitely not the case in my wing. Here, if you get uniform items, you hang onto them. There may be a few individuals who are willing to coordinate some supply transfers between units, but it's rare that it's the actual unit. In fact, this practice is what caused some squadrons to have this now totally useless endless stockpile of BDU items. There's a unit that literally has a hangar attic full of them because they were keeping them solely for their members. Didn't work out so great when they didn't have an ABU cache, and other units didn't want to play nice with them after that.

QuoteWith the phase-out of ABUs, we've been approached by units on base wanting to discard their hoards of other ABU-patterned items including gortex jackets, molle equipment, first aid kits, etc.

Some of the issue here is that this goes back to uniforms being a squadron matter. Many units have no comprehension as to how to get a stockpile of uniform items, including those that can be gathered from AFB bases.

We have a unit who is 70 miles to the nearest AFB, and 110 miles to the nearest ANGB. There are 8 other squadrons that are closer. That unit doesn't stand a chance at getting ABUs unless they get out there and do it on their own.

That said, that's really what they should be doing, right? They should be reaching out to go get some uniforms. But they don't know how, and so they didn't. What do they do in a year when ABUs are long gone from anyone's donation pile?


An organization that relies on clothing donations to maintain a uniform appearance through policy really needs to find a new approach. It's not realistic/feasible.

QuoteSome of the issue here is that this goes back to uniforms being a squadron matter.

Technically, its an individual member matter.  If a squadron or a wing wants to try to accumulate a uniform supply, they can, but are under no obligation to do so. 

That being said, why can't the Air Force directly supply uniforms to CAP?  Maybe someone that has been buying stuff more recently can do the math, but the in the scheme of the AF budget, it should be do-able.  Either for cadets, seniors, or both.  Out of curiosity, do JROTC cadets buy their own uniforms? 

Say they did, I know that many squadrons wouldn't have the space to store adequate uniforms, but it should be something that most Wings could probably manage. 

Sure, I understand that if the AF can get people to volunteer their time and outfit themselves that would be preferable, but it sure does introduce a lot of issues. 

Not even "technically" - it's not a unit's problem, and the idea that it is causes
a lot of misunderstanding (at a minimum).

39-1 is essentially a 163-page unfunded mandate that focus' on affectation
over mission execution or inclusion.

Why would the USAF fund uniforms (beyond what is already appropriated?), as the
organization is regularly reminded, CAP is not a part of the USAF, and cadets
are never "Total Force" by design.

JROTC is a DOD program, funded to the tune of ~$428mm a year (for all the branches)
of which the AFJROTC gets about $100MM Source: https://sgp.fas.org/crs/natsec/IF11313.pdf
(Which makes it even more laughable when the USAF wants to use already strained and limited
CAP resources for AFJROTC and ROTC o-rides and flight training)

As to Wing managing uniform issue - considering the logistics of getting a uniform
6-7+ hours away, the units near HQ will have all the stuff, and the edge will still be
on their own.

Quote from: RiverAux on January 03, 2022, 11:00:30 PM

QuoteSome of the issue here is that this goes back to uniforms being a squadron matter.

Technically, its an individual member matter.  If a squadron or a wing wants to try to accumulate a uniform supply, they can, but are under no obligation to do so. 

That being said, why can't the Air Force directly supply uniforms to CAP?  Maybe someone that has been buying stuff more recently can do the math, but the in the scheme of the AF budget, it should be do-able.  Either for cadets, seniors, or both.  Out of curiosity, do JROTC cadets buy their own uniforms? 

Say they did, I know that many squadrons wouldn't have the space to store adequate uniforms, but it should be something that most Wings could probably manage. 

Sure, I understand that if the AF can get people to volunteer their time and outfit themselves that would be preferable, but it sure does introduce a lot of issues. 

JROTC cadets are issued their uniforms, but have to turn them in at the end of the school year or if they leave the program. The uniforms remain government property.

Quote from: RiverAux on January 03, 2022, 11:00:30 PM

QuoteThat being said, why can't the Air Force directly supply uniforms to CAP?  Maybe someone that has been buying stuff more recently can do the math, but the in the scheme of the AF budget, it should be do-able.  Either for cadets, seniors, or both.  Out of curiosity, do JROTC cadets buy their own uniforms?

Such a program would have to be linked to some achievement that indicated the member is staying.  I can tell you from extensive experience that the percentage of members renewing after the first year doesn't support that expense.

JROTC is issued equipment, however they are accountable for it and do turn it back in later, at least the items that are recoverable (socks & underwear are not returned).

Army JROTC is wearing OCP uniforms.
Sea Cadets are now wearing NWU Type IIIs.
Marine Corps JROTC are in MARPAT.
AFJROTC is wearing ABU with sage or coyote boots.

Let's bear in mind here that the majority of the members (above) are meeting during the school year, which is why items are distributed, collected, and redistributed based on the school calendar cycle.

That said, CAP does not receive funding to provide cadets with uniforms. With that being the case, I don't know why we wouldn't be using the most current, most available uniform supply to have reasonable, affordable access to uniform materials. By resorting to outdated, inactive uniforms, we're looking for handouts and donations amid an ever-shrinking supply cache which is going to become rarer and more impossible to locate items. You can't even get short-size ABU pants from distributors anymore (I looked just yesterday, and I'll soon be SOL just the same as the cadets...yes, there are still a few shorter than I am...).

The fix to me here is to bite the bullet every few years when the military changes its uniforms, for CAP to change with them and start asking members to go purchase new items.

This isn't a matter of how expensive it is on the member; although, it always seems to be portrayed that way. The problem isn't the cost: it's the availability.

Inventories are going to be used up. Items are going to be worn out. You aren't going to find any ABUs anyway after the next several years, if not sooner. Units aren't sharing what they have, and to tell a member "It's not my problem; go find a uniform supply" is going to continue to result in increased attrition.

Whether it's idolizing the uniform or not, most cadets join CAP because they like the military appeal, which includes the wear of a military-style uniform. How does that work when we're telling members that we don't have uniforms for them, and there's no where to go and get them anymore?

eBay is not a uniform supply. That's a panic resort.

Quote from: PHall on January 03, 2022, 11:59:59 PM

Quote from: RiverAux on January 03, 2022, 11:00:30 PM

QuoteSome of the issue here is that this goes back to uniforms being a squadron matter.

Technically, its an individual member matter.  If a squadron or a wing wants to try to accumulate a uniform supply, they can, but are under no obligation to do so. 

That being said, why can't the Air Force directly supply uniforms to CAP?  Maybe someone that has been buying stuff more recently can do the math, but the in the scheme of the AF budget, it should be do-able.  Either for cadets, seniors, or both.  Out of curiosity, do JROTC cadets buy their own uniforms? 

Say they did, I know that many squadrons wouldn't have the space to store adequate uniforms, but it should be something that most Wings could probably manage. 

Sure, I understand that if the AF can get people to volunteer their time and outfit themselves that would be preferable, but it sure does introduce a lot of issues. 

JROTC cadets are issued their uniforms, but have to turn them in at the end of the school year or if they leave the program. The uniforms remain government property.

This^^

When I was in JROTC, the Supply NCO maintained supply sheets for every Cadet in the program. When we left the program, either by graduating or just dropping the class, they sent a letter of all of the items they needed back. If they weren't turned in, they sent the bill to the school to add to your account, and you couldn't graduate without turning the items in. Aside from shoes and boots, covers, and my 4 year old field worn BDU's, and then ribbons and badges, everything else was turned back in and reissued several times over until it became unserviceable.

So excuse my ignorance, but who pays for the Curry Voucher? CAP or USAF?

If it is the USAF that could be their attempt to at least kit out the cadet program.

Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 04, 2022, 05:37:46 PMSo excuse my ignorance, but who pays for the Curry Voucher? CAP or USAF?

If it is the USAF that could be their attempt to at least kit out the cadet program.

The Curry Voucher is a National program through partnership with Vanguard, not an Air Force program partnership with CAP.

And the voucher only applies to Blues, not utilities. In fact, National needs to update the website, as it continues to point to BDUs as a uniform option.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/newcadet/curryblues

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 04, 2022, 06:29:43 PM

Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 04, 2022, 05:37:46 PMSo excuse my ignorance, but who pays for the Curry Voucher? CAP or USAF?

If it is the USAF that could be their attempt to at least kit out the cadet program.

The Curry Voucher is a National program through partnership with Vanguard, not an Air Force program partnership with CAP.

And the voucher only applies to Blues, not utilities. In fact, National needs to update the website, as it continues to point to BDUs as a uniform option.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/newcadet/curryblues

Okay, so CAP is paying for it and Vanguard gives us a discount.

Perhaps we should approach the USAF and ask them to come up with a similar voucher program for OCPs that they pay for. That way we can start getting Cadets into field uniforms before encampments.

While I'd welcome free uniforms for seniors, I think we should concentrate on cadets first. The USAF is more likely to play ball there first.

Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 04, 2022, 06:39:17 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 04, 2022, 06:29:43 PM

Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 04, 2022, 05:37:46 PMSo excuse my ignorance, but who pays for the Curry Voucher? CAP or USAF?

If it is the USAF that could be their attempt to at least kit out the cadet program.

The Curry Voucher is a National program through partnership with Vanguard, not an Air Force program partnership with CAP.

And the voucher only applies to Blues, not utilities. In fact, National needs to update the website, as it continues to point to BDUs as a uniform option.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/newcadet/curryblues

Okay, so CAP is paying for it and Vanguard gives us a discount.

Perhaps we should approach the USAF and ask them to come up with a similar voucher program for OCPs that they pay for. That way we can start getting Cadets into field uniforms before encampments.

While I'd welcome free uniforms for seniors, I think we should concentrate on cadets first. The USAF is more likely to play ball there first.

I'm not sure that it's a matter that we need free uniforms. We have those now.

The problem is the availability of the supply. We won't have any ABUs available in the soon future. That's what happens when you go with a uniform that nobody else on the planet is continuing to wear and while it was already extremely difficult to find equipment in the matching pattern.

Might as well start wearing chocolate chip camo.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 04, 2022, 06:29:43 PMThe Curry Voucher is a National program through partnership with Vanguard, not an Air Force program partnership with CAP.

But where is the funding coming from ultimately?

The Curry Voucher program was the replacement for the "Free Cadet Uniform" program
which predated Vanguard (and often didn't provide anything due to funding issues).

http://web.archive.org/web/20150312180151/http://capmembers.com/cadet_programs/new_cadet_help/curry-blues-vouchers/
Warning - shield your eyes, the goggle do nothing!

When the Curry Voucher and CEAP (which provides field uniforms) programs were spun up, respectively, they
were marketed as being "funded by the USAF", but I've never been able to pin down the actual
source.  Are they part of the managed appropriation?  A USAF line item?

If they are just Vanguard give-backs, that points further to both VG prices being too high
and members subsidizing other members uniforms, which to me is not cricket.

Also, FWIW, there is / was a proposal to make Curry Voucher needs based:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Curry_Uniform_Program_EC13F6BF7528E.pdf
Though there doesn't appear to be a funding source indicated for that, either (or I missed it).

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 04, 2022, 06:45:43 PMI'm not sure that it's a matter that we need free uniforms. We have those now.

To be fair, CAP provides a partial uniform. There's about $100 additional cost for the
blues alone.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 04, 2022, 06:45:43 PMThe problem is the availability of the supply.

Did VG stop manufacturing the pink knock-offs?  If not, then supply is less of an issue,
though adults who don't shop at VG, or prefer their ABUs less pink might have issues.

There's an easy dark-blue fix for this whole conversation.

QuoteA full "blues" uniform costs about $150

... according to the NHQ site. By my reckoning, delivered to an address in NY, a full Class B USAF-style uniform for a cadet airman including all the distinctive items (i.e. not the white undershirt or the black socks) is a minimum of $246.06 at this point.

• Civil Air Patrol Cap Device: Cadet Enlisted - Flight
• Civil Air Patrol Uniform: Flight Cap: Airman
• Civil Air Patrol Name Plate: Cadet
• Civil Air Patrol Cadet Grade Insignia: Airman - chevron
• Air Force Belt: Blue Elastic with Mirror Finish Buckle and Tip - Standard
• Patent Leather Dress Shoes
• Civil Air Patrol Uniform: Short Sleeve Dress Shirt
• Civil Air Patrol Uniform: Trouser

Quote from: Eclipse on January 04, 2022, 06:46:06 PMAlso, FWIW, there is / was a proposal to make Curry Voucher needs based:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Curry_Uniform_Program_EC13F6BF7528E.pdf
Though there doesn't appear to be a funding source indicated for that, either (or I missed it).

Which implies that we may not see any substantial uniform changes in 2022, or, if so, that they're not being communicated with the other directorates at the National level.

Vanguard being the only supplier of "new" ABUs is a real problem, particularly in how the ABUs are manufactured and sized for sale category. Uniforms are not coming in standard sizes anymore, and they're being cut to a "general size" rather than to individual sizing needs (e.g., pant inseam is now aligned with the waist rather than independent). They're also available only in single-gender cut (male).

A full set of OCPs, at a "low" cost, namely due to the high price of "cheap" boots, is about $260.

Ah, yes, the "Free Cadet Uniform" program.

Soon to be followed by the "Uniform Free Cadet" program (as I'm afraid I'm suggesting with respects to cold weather gear).

Eventually followed by the "Cadet Free Cadet Program"?


<sarc mode off>
Spam

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 04, 2022, 07:01:04 PMWhich implies that we may not see any substantial uniform changes in 2022

With the majority of the organization back on lock down for at least 1/2 the year, it's probably
even money or better that NHQ actually will spend time and effort re-hashing the multiform.

Clearly that's where the focus should be, amirite?

I would be perfectly happy with uniforms being provided free to members from the AF through CAP and with CAP retaining ownership.  Yeah, not all the uniforms would get back when a cadet or senior leaves, but most probably would. 

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 04, 2022, 06:29:43 PM

Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 04, 2022, 05:37:46 PMSo excuse my ignorance, but who pays for the Curry Voucher? CAP or USAF?

If it is the USAF that could be their attempt to at least kit out the cadet program.

The Curry Voucher is a National program through partnership with Vanguard, not an Air Force program partnership with CAP.

And the voucher only applies to Blues, not utilities. In fact, National needs to update the website, as it continues to point to BDUs as a uniform option.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/newcadet/curryblues

Sorry to be late to another classic CAPTalk uniform discussion, but the facts are that the USAF funds the Curry Voucher Program, normally at a little over $600,000 a year.  It is not corporate (dues) money, but money specifically provided and fenced by our AF colleagues specifically for cadet uniforms.

Just as the AF funded the Free Cadet Uniform program for years.

We are grateful for their support, as we believe that their support allows young men and women to participate in our program who might not otherwise have been able to do so.

And I was just briefed that the allocation for next year will be larger than the $600k baseline.

So, join me in thanking the taxpayers and the USAF for funding the uniforms for thousands of cadets.

DM me with questions, if you'd like.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager

Quote from: RiverAux on January 04, 2022, 09:35:07 PMI would be perfectly happy with uniforms being provided free to members from the AF through CAP and with CAP retaining ownership.  Yeah, not all the uniforms would get back when a cadet or senior leaves, but most probably would. 

The sad fact is, what you'll hear from units is "We don't want to keep track of uniforms."

Dunno about you, but BITD (which was, in my instance, a Tuesday) we had unit supplies and nobody complained about having to keep track of them because it was *awesome* that we had stuff we could hand out to cadets (and seniors).  Just give it back when you're done.

Now did all of it come back? No. But we got the majority of them back. (I have an squadron-issue OD-green field jacket from my cadet days hanging up downstairs... shhhhh, don't tell my old squadron supply officer, he may come after me for it!)

This past year we received a huge influx of ABUs from our Air Guard partners. Every unit got 60 sets of ABUs and were instructed to donate their old BDUs.  There was some "we don't want them" push back. Not much, but some.

Quote from: NIN on January 04, 2022, 10:31:55 PMThe sad fact is, what you'll hear from units is "We don't want to keep track of uniforms."

Historically CAP (and by association the USAF) has been somewhat excited zealous adamant meh, what the heck, a HUGE PITA about missing items despite having zero book value.

The amount of my life I'll never get back doing ROS' for broken copiers (NEVER, EVER, indicate "found on base" for anything), $6 power adapters, and typewriters is actually somewhat flabbergasting. (while at the same time
allowing radio equipment to be unrecovered from former members because "reasons").

So unless there would be a check box for "Johnny kept it, and his mom won't answer the phone", I'd be reluctant to
accept anything that had to be kept on the books.

There's also the issue that a non-trivial number (seemingly more each year) of units meet somewhere
that has zero storage space.

Quote from: Ned on January 04, 2022, 10:20:11 PMthe USAF funds the Curry Voucher Program, normally at a little over $600,000

So...math.

According to this document:  https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Curry_Uniform_Program_EC13F6BF7528E.pdf
Maj Hallihan asserts that the expectation is 12k new cadets annually (if that's actually the case, the churn is
a lot higher), with a 20% non-redeem rate, which would mean that the program is underfunded by at about $360k.

So there's that.

The other question is what happens to the overage of funding in years where CAP doesn't get 6000 new cadets?
Or is that bundled into CEAP?

Well there is many ways to crack this egg.

In the Army Reserve, all field equipment is issued from a centralized depot to the individual Soldier. Reserve units no longer keep large amounts on hand, maybe a half a dozen sets to use for new Soldiers before they get their issue from the depot.

You don't go to the depot, the depots ships the gear to you. When you get out, you turn your gear in to the local unit, they generate a receipt for what you turn in and they ship the gear back to the depot. What you don't turn in, you get a bill for.

We could set something like this for CAP, using the USAF supply system. You join as a cadet, you get a Curry Voucher but other than send the Money to Vanguard, the CAP Squadron takes the Voucher and fills out a requisition to a USAF depot and the cadet gets shipped to them a short sleeve shirt, trousers, a flight cap, a belt, a tie or neck tab and a set of low quarters, which gets shipped to the cadet from the depot.

Tee-shirt, black socks, underwear and nametag are on the parents.

Hat badge, cadet rank and awards are on the local Squadron's dime.

Everything else is on a one for one exchange. Get promoted, surrender you old rank, and here is new rank.

Out grow trousers, bring in the old, we'll order new ones. Everything goes back to the depot for re-issue or destruction if unserviceable.

Leave CAP, turn everything back in or get a bill from the USAF depot. Turn in at the local unit, with receipt issued and the squadron will ship all the gear back to the depot.

At a certain rank or activity, a Service Coat gets issued and the same with OCPs, boots and other field gear.

As long as everyone understands this is property of the USAF, you are borrowing it, if you lose it, you just bought it. Legally binding paperwork to be signed at time of issue.

If you complete the Cadet program, and become a senior, you can purchase your used cadet uniform at a depreciated cost, payable over time, if needed.

Seniors can purchase direct from the depot, once the system is up and running.

This will also force CAP to update uniforms when the USAF does as the depot will only issue USAF uniform items.

It would be a workable system.

Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 04, 2022, 11:21:26 PMIt would be a workable system.

The system you propose sounds reasonable, workable, and would cost
millions to ramp up.

This is a world where CAP members can't even purchase uniform items
from the USAF's official supplier because the call center doesn't
want to track people who aren't in the system as service members.

Quote from: Eclipse on January 04, 2022, 11:03:40 PMSo...math.

According to this document:  https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Curry_Uniform_Program_EC13F6BF7528E.pdf
Maj Hallihan asserts that the expectation is 12k new cadets annually (if that's actually the case, the churn is
a lot higher), with a 20% non-redeem rate, which would mean that the program is underfunded by at about $360k.

Well, I guess it is a perspective thing.  For the first 50 years of our program, we had no external funding for cadet uniforms.  (Beyond the occasional DRMO dump.). And as others have pointed out, our cadet numbers were actually higher with no uniform money than now.

So to talk about "underfunding" is interesting.  Clearly, if the AF wanted to increase the funding, we would be grateful and could clearly get more uniforms for our deserving cadets.  OTOH, even if they reduced the funding, we would still be grateful for any assistance they provide.
So there's that.

Quote from: undefinedThe other question is what happens to the overage of funding in years where CAP doesn't get 6000 new cadets?
Or is that bundled into CEAP?

We have always used 100% of the allocation, and have had to decline requests after we have hit the limit for each FY.  That was one of the reasons the Curry Voucher program was adjusted to ensure that more cadets are provided the opportunity.

And FWIW, CEAP and uniform funds come from different "pots" of federal money and could not be mixed.  In the unlikely event we did not disperse all the uniform funds, we would be obligated to return the unexpended funds to Uncle Sam.

And when thinking about any system where USAF property (such as uniforms) comes into the possession of CAP, Inc or individual members, carefully consider the considerable requirements for receiving, safeguarding, and accounting for government property. 

Signatures, personal accountability, periodic inventories, and a lot of record-keeping.  I spent my fair share of time as an Army company commander, and can assure you that Uncle Sam is fairly persnickety about such things.  Like unit commanders "signing" for unit property.  Reports of Survey and Statements of Charges in the event that 100% accountability is not maintained.

The unit commander before me was held responsible for property losses in the unit and had to personally pay over $1k back to Uncle Sam.

So be careful what you wish for . . .

Kinda easy here to tell who has and who has not dealt with the military supply system and all the fun it entails. ;)

Quote from: PHall on January 05, 2022, 03:05:57 AMKinda easy here to tell who has and who has not dealt with the military supply system and all the fun it entails. ;)

 ;D   ;D   ;D   ;D

Quote from: Eclipse on January 04, 2022, 10:46:55 PMThere's also the issue that a non-trivial number (seemingly more each year) of units meet somewhere
that has zero storage space.

*raises hand*...that one's me.

I had an airport developer reach out yesterday and suggest that we try to target a grant for $3.5 Million like it was just available. He literally pointed me to this article and suggested that we try to raise funds for a new facility: https://www.crowrivermedia.com/hutchinsonleader/news/local/civil-air-patrol-will-seek-additional-funds-for-hutchinson-facility/article_a3cf1490-380d-11ec-a489-2f31b8bc52ac.html

I might have said a few words at the monitor...

Even in the ideal world, we're also dealing with another looming logistical nightmare with uniforms. I'm down in FLWG, and despite several bases and some surplus that got snatched up by local units, most of those were odd sizes, unserviceable items or the old Gen 1 ABU (read as heavy-weight) which sucks immensely for hot summers in the sunshine state.

An example, I've been looking for an APECS parka for about 3 months after mine got torn during a downed aircraft search (sharp aluminum really do be like that). Additionally all the major manufactures of ABU's are starting to dry up.

I'm sure the NUB is aware of it and working toward something, but who knows when we'll see changes given how soon we are since the last change.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 05, 2022, 03:50:41 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on January 04, 2022, 10:46:55 PMThere's also the issue that a non-trivial number (seemingly more each year) of units meet somewhere
that has zero storage space.

*raises hand*...that one's me.

I had an airport developer reach out yesterday and suggest that we try to target a grant for $3.5 Million like it was just available. He literally pointed me to this article and suggested that we try to raise funds for a new facility: https://www.crowrivermedia.com/hutchinsonleader/news/local/civil-air-patrol-will-seek-additional-funds-for-hutchinson-facility/article_a3cf1490-380d-11ec-a489-2f31b8bc52ac.html

I might have said a few words at the monitor...

Interesting article, but out of the scope of what most Squadrons will be able to accomplish. The Wing might be able to get a few million for a training facility, as in this article, but a local Squadron isn't going to get that kind of grant for their weekly meetings.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 05, 2022, 03:50:41 PMI had an airport developer reach out yesterday and suggest that we try to target a grant for $3.5 Million like it was just available. He literally pointed me to this article and suggested that we try to raise funds for a new facility: https://www.crowrivermedia.com/hutchinsonleader/news/local/civil-air-patrol-will-seek-additional-funds-for-hutchinson-facility/article_a3cf1490-380d-11ec-a489-2f31b8bc52ac.html

I might have said a few words at the monitor...

Who gets to live in the "Caretaker Cottage"?

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on January 05, 2022, 07:10:15 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 05, 2022, 03:50:41 PMI had an airport developer reach out yesterday and suggest that we try to target a grant for $3.5 Million like it was just available. He literally pointed me to this article and suggested that we try to raise funds for a new facility: https://www.crowrivermedia.com/hutchinsonleader/news/local/civil-air-patrol-will-seek-additional-funds-for-hutchinson-facility/article_a3cf1490-380d-11ec-a489-2f31b8bc52ac.html

I might have said a few words at the monitor...

Who gets to live in the "Caretaker Cottage"?

Not sure, but it doesn't look like the original $3.5 really made an impact to the unit's meeting space in the doublewide: https://www.facebook.com/HutchCAP/photos/1200490596825801

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 05, 2022, 08:00:14 PM

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on January 05, 2022, 07:10:15 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 05, 2022, 03:50:41 PMI had an airport developer reach out yesterday and suggest that we try to target a grant for $3.5 Million like it was just available. He literally pointed me to this article and suggested that we try to raise funds for a new facility: https://www.crowrivermedia.com/hutchinsonleader/news/local/civil-air-patrol-will-seek-additional-funds-for-hutchinson-facility/article_a3cf1490-380d-11ec-a489-2f31b8bc52ac.html

I might have said a few words at the monitor...

Who gets to live in the "Caretaker Cottage"?

Not sure, but it doesn't look like the original $3.5 really made an impact to the unit's meeting space in the doublewide: https://www.facebook.com/HutchCAP/photos/1200490596825801

Those pics look like they're all prior to the original grant. Nice doublewide facility though; better than some. Looks like a good unit. Good on them for seeking and securing funding in the first place!

(As an aside, posting pics with political signs and rebel flags in USAF style uniform is generally not recommended, but I digress).

R/s
Spam

Quote from: Eclipse on January 04, 2022, 11:36:37 PM

Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 04, 2022, 11:21:26 PMIt would be a workable system.

The system you propose sounds reasonable, workable, and would cost
millions to ramp up.

This is a world where CAP members can't even purchase uniform items
from the USAF's official supplier because the call center doesn't
want to track people who aren't in the system as service members.

No not millions, I would suspect a similar system is in place already for the USAFR, much like the USAR system is.

The trick will getting CAP access to the system already in place.

Since the military is moving away from the SSN to the DOD ID number, it might be workable to convert CAPID to a DOD ID number. If we could get that into the supply system or even the Exchange System, it would make purchasing uniforms simpler.

Quote from: Ned on January 05, 2022, 02:55:10 AMAnd when thinking about any system where USAF property (such as uniforms) comes into the possession of CAP, Inc or individual members, carefully consider the considerable requirements for receiving, safeguarding, and accounting for government property. 

Signatures, personal accountability, periodic inventories, and a lot of record-keeping.  I spent my fair share of time as an Army company commander, and can assure you that Uncle Sam is fairly persnickety about such things.  Like unit commanders "signing" for unit property.  Reports of Survey and Statements of Charges in the event that 100% accountability is not maintained.

The unit commander before me was held responsible for property losses in the unit and had to personally pay over $1k back to Uncle Sam.

So be careful what you wish for . . .

I remember my last change of command inventory when I picked up Major after my company command. Pain in the butt to say the least.

Most of my vehicles were at a different post then where the unit was located. BDE would fund me to go TDY for the inspection, had to settle for a hand receipt saying the vehicles were accounted for.

The goal of my system is not to put a burden on a Squadron Commander but to the individual CAP member and/or cadet parents.

The member is responsible for the uniform/s and gear they are issued, not the unit. The only time a unit should be touching them is when a member leaves CAP and turns the gear and uniform/s in.

Document only what was turned in, give the departing member a receipt, and put it in a box and ship to a USAF depot.

If the member is short, the member gets the bill, not the Squadron or the Squadron commander.

We're not reinventing the wheel here. As someone has already pointed out, JROTCs do this already, of course they use the extra club of no transcript/no diploma until the bill for unreturned equipment is paid but there are other ways for the USAF to get it's money back.

This is thread is pretty off track at the moment, but if it helps, I got this today regarding the black watch cap with ABU. I had a ticket in prior to this thread asking the same question.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/614a67028b5f9cda1733b3cc4df0c848.jpg)



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That's great, except that person has zero authority to make that call.

Quote from: Eclipse on January 06, 2022, 01:48:54 AMThat's great, except that person has zero authority to make that call.

How do you know they were the one who made the call?
They could just be the person handling the help tickets.

Quote from: PHall on January 06, 2022, 03:29:07 AMHow do you know they were the one who made the call?
They could just be the person handling the help tickets.

That's the point, unless they are quoting an approved regulation or published
policy, it just a wive's tale. This is literally the thing we rail against all
the time, including the ubiquitous "double-secret supplement waiting for approval."

CAP's regulations are very specific about their procedure for updates and changes,
especially in regards to uniform wear.

The knowledgebase, nor someone answering the phone at NHQ, is not part of that process.

Even if it's HEADCAP who answers.

Quote from: Eclipse on January 06, 2022, 01:48:54 AMThat's great, except that person has zero authority to make that call.

I mean, that's the mechanism we have to request clarification. Quite frankly it makes no difference to me. But it's an answer from HQ. They took an unusually long amount of time to respond so I can only assuming they were doing due diligence to the question.


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I'm at a total loss of understanding how an article is authorized for wear via support ticket (whether NHQ or whomever) while the black-and-white text of the published regulation says completely otherwise.

The black watch cap is NOT authorized for wear with the ABU; BDU only.

Don't do it just because someone at NHQ said you could. Literally read the source document.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 06, 2022, 03:25:07 PMI'm at a total loss of understanding how an article is authorized for wear via support ticket (whether NHQ or whomever) while the black-and-white text of the published regulation says completely otherwise.

The black watch cap is NOT authorized for wear with the ABU; BDU only.

Don't do it just because someone at NHQ said you could. Literally read the source document.

Me: Cadet, why are you wearing that black watch cap with ABU, 39-1 forbids it?

C/Amn Snuffy: I have authorization from NHQ, in writing, to wear this.

Pretty much shuts down the conversation right there, whether it's right or not. I'm very surprised the help desk would contradict a reg like that, but if NHQ sent that to a member and they used that as justification, I'm not overruling NHQ, especially if it keeps the Cadet's head warm and his/her uniform is otherwise in good order.

Those of us with a few RSRs have had to deal with more then a few issues where someone
at NHQ made an off-handed determination or statement about a reg or policy in conflict with
published directives or local command policy, outside any actual authority to do
so, and resulting in things just being more difficult to deal with after.

Members want to play Army when they hear things they like or agree with, but will
seek out agreement from any corner they can find it when they don't like something.

The KB is supposed to quote published regulation and policy for members who can't
find it on their own, not make it.

Quote from: Capt Thompson on January 06, 2022, 03:44:05 PMC/Amn Snuffy: I have authorization from NHQ, in writing, to wear this.

Sorry cadet, that person exceeded their authority.

Also, why did you contact NHQ when I could have clarified things for you?

The example you cite is literally the problem, because again, cadets
especially will seek out the answer they want, not the answer.

"Keeps your head warm" is irrelevant at the macro policy level when it's already
handled at the micro "for today" level by published regulation.

This smacks of the time we had two experienced cadets who showed up to a bivouac
with Desert Storm era battle helmets instead of patrol caps. "Well these are safer".

Edit: Quote system wonky

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 06, 2022, 03:25:07 PMI'm at a total loss of understanding how an article is authorized for wear via support ticket (whether NHQ or whomever) while the black-and-white text of the published regulation says completely otherwise.

The black watch cap is NOT authorized for wear with the ABU; BDU only.

Don't do it just because someone at NHQ said you could. Literally read the source document.

I had a similar problem with the helpdesk when I asked a question about the "CAP Ballcap". They essentially quoted a regulation from another section that applies to a different uniform combination and not the one that was specifically in the section for the flight duty uniform. (They were quoting for the BDU at the time).

Bottom line, we're all human and the folks answering these tickets may not actually know how to read a reg. They may go from an interpretation from someone else.

No matter, I think it goes back to how clunky the reg is written.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 06, 2022, 03:25:07 PMI'm at a total loss of understanding how an article is authorized for wear via support ticket (whether NHQ or whomever) while the black-and-white text of the published regulation says completely otherwise.

The black watch cap is NOT authorized for wear with the ABU; BDU only.

Don't do it just because someone at NHQ said you could. Literally read the source document.

I'm not doing anything. I left that god awful uniform when I left active duty.   I'm just passing on what was provided to me. So let's take it down a notch and calm down.

My guidance to the members of my squadron was foliage green for  ABU's and no black per the reg.


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Referring way back to the first page of the thread, this is also inconsistent with advice previously received from the help desk:

Quote from: wacapgh on December 28, 2021, 09:22:59 PMI opened a ticket last summer - The reply from HQ was:

"Only a green watch cap can be worn with the ABU uniform (paragraph 6.2.5 of CAPR 39-2)."

It's like the standard advice given if you hear something you don't like from customer service: hang up and call back again.

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on January 06, 2022, 05:25:43 PMReferring way back to the first page of the thread, this is also inconsistent with advice previously received from the help desk:

Quote from: wacapgh on December 28, 2021, 09:22:59 PMI opened a ticket last summer - The reply from HQ was:

"Only a green watch cap can be worn with the ABU uniform (paragraph 6.2.5 of CAPR 39-2)."

It's like the standard advice given if you hear something you don't like from customer service: hang up and call back again.

OK, that's hilarious right there.

Seriously, this thread is a bunch of old men, old enough to be my father old men, arguing over a black versus foliage green fleece watch cap instead of worrying about a cadet getting frostbite on their ears!!!!

Guess what, in the real USAF, USSF and US Army you can wear black or coyote brown fleece watch caps with OCPs.

Guess what, in the National Guard and Reserve, Gortex parkas, fleece liners and watch caps are organizational issue clothing (i.e. field gear) wear of ACU and/or ABU pattern parkas and foliage green liners are still authorized for wear with OCPs. Why? The supply system to replace all the organizational clothing with OCP pattern and coyote brown hasn't caught up with the Guard and Reserve.

Use some gosh darn COMMON SENSE. National has spoken, maybe not in the manner that certain curmudgeon old complainers would prefer but they have issued an answer... black watch caps are authorized... accept it and move on.

End of rant.

Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 06, 2022, 07:05:27 PMSeriously, this thread is a bunch of old men, old enough to be my father old men, arguing over a black versus foliage green fleece watch cap instead of worrying about a cadet getting frostbite on their ears!!!!

This is demonstrably untrue by just reading the actual thread.

The only properly authorized cap is green.  There is no ambiguity to this.

No cadets ears should be cold because those "on the spot" allowances are accommodated
through properly published regulations.

What some other service allows is completely irrelevant to what CAP allows.

Quote from: Eclipse on January 06, 2022, 07:11:20 PM

Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 06, 2022, 07:05:27 PMSeriously, this thread is a bunch of old men, old enough to be my father old men, arguing over a black versus foliage green fleece watch cap instead of worrying about a cadet getting frostbite on their ears!!!!

This is demonstrably untrue by just reading the actual thread.

The only properly authorized cap is green.  There is no ambiguity to this.

No cadets ears should be cold because those "on the spot" allowances are accommodated
through properly published regulations.

What some other service allows is completely irrelevant to what CAP allows.

And a statement just came down from National, through an approved communication channel, that states otherwise.

I suggest you follow that communication channel directive and address your questions and/or concerns up it instead of increasing the warm Co2 content of this thread.

Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 06, 2022, 07:33:03 PMAn a statement just came down from National, through an approved communication channel, that states otherwise.

This channel has been proven to be unreliable at best, including in this very
thread about this very topic.

Insisting otherwise simply shows a level of inexperience with both this channel and CAP generally,
and makes the point that members will seek out and accept the answer they want, regardless of
the source, as long as they can put a "I heard" in front of it.

I'm my Squadron's Safety Officer, I'll put my cadet's un-frostbitten ears ahead of some silly uniform regulation any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

BTW, the "you have no experience" response you throw out all the time when you thump your chest and stir the gorilla dust is wearing thin. Very thin. Just saying.

Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 06, 2022, 07:51:27 PMI'm my Squadron's Safety Officer, I'll put my cadet's un-frostbitten ears ahead of some silly uniform regulation any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Which is what the regs and this thread have been saying the whole time.

39-1 is the oracle when people agree with it and a "silly uniform reg" when they don't.

Wow

When it comes to winter WX and cadets and availability or not of uniform items.....

NUB might want to look at the realities of the world outside of the wire at NHQ/Maxwell

Inner city and tribal squadrons may or may not have that traditional "Guard and AF AD Base" sponsorship

CAPR 39-1 (approx 154 pages) versus CAPR 60-3(34 pages) tells me quite a bit about 80 yrs and the mission and what's really important in CAP

Quote from: heliodoc on January 06, 2022, 08:19:48 PMWow

When it comes to winter WX and cadets and availability or not of uniform items.....

NUB might want to look at the realities of the world outside of the wire at NHQ/Maxwell

Inner city and tribal squadrons may or may not have that traditional "Guard and AF AD Base" sponsorship

CAPR 39-1 (approx 154 pages) versus CAPR 60-3(34 pages) tells me quite a bit about 80 yrs and the mission and what's really important in CAP

What "Guard and AF AD Base" sponsorship?  Even units that actually meet on a base don't get any "sponsorship" from the base.

Alright

Wrong terminology "sponsorship"  My mistake. Ever make one?

Maybe Congress need to re-charter us like JROTC with some real goodies and expectations like everyone discussing the proverbial CIF issues...that would put a whole new onus on CAP.

Again, my mistake.  We get noticed on our base and  2 crates of ABUs were "sponsored" to us before the trip to DRMO and the rag bin....LOLOLOL

BTW' that photo is that of a Squadron of a very famous former Region Commander who ought know better than the rest of us about proper uniform wear and the "ability to get uniform supplies" when many of us already knew how

Quote from: heliodoc on January 06, 2022, 11:14:55 PMBTW' that photo is that of a Squadron of a very famous former Region Commander who ought know better than the rest of us about proper uniform wear and the "ability to get uniform supplies" when many of us already knew how

Not tracking...

Quote from: CAPed Crusader on December 28, 2021, 07:40:54 AM(https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/fremonttribune.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/5/5e/55e359ae-7cdb-5954-aa7d-b39b0fee241b/61c109c004ef6.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C776)

image credit to: https://fremonttribune.com/news/local/watch-now-civil-air-patrol-honors-fremont-military-graves-with-wreaths-across-america/article_ba133e1d-775f-5a2b-8dbe-1a8b4aff2f2c.html

From a fashion viewpoint, the caps and the gloves and boots all match nicely.

Quote from: heliodoc on January 06, 2022, 11:14:55 PMBTW' that photo is that of a Squadron of a very famous former Region Commander who ought know better than the rest of us about proper uniform wear and the "ability to get uniform supplies" when many of us already knew how

If it's the picture I'm thinking of, from Middle Atlantic Region, it was taken during the test wear period prior to formal adoption. There were several combinations worn that were not subsequently adopted.

That said, we're done here. Once again, civility has gone down the drain.

Click.