Cadet POV's at RON/Away Activities

[a2capt]

Which does bring up the question -- why aren't 18-21 year old cadets formally in a different classification?  I'm almost positive that with the cadet protection requirement and common sense that they have to fall under the same insurance as seniors and not as the 12-17 year olds.

Except they are still cadets, and as such, the cadet program is .. modeled for all cadets.
I would have to think that the percentage of cadets in the 18 to 21 range that are going to fall into an area where they are going to be stubborn, intimidated or otherwise anti-authority is relatively small and if they are going to get into trouble and I suspect it's not going to be over retaining access to a POV to leave the activity.

Is this debate based on any actual cases of police being called, or cadets 18-21 being 'detained' at a CAP activity? We are responsible for minors entrusted to us at our activities not just by CAP regulation based on legalities and backed by experience, but also by trust between their parents and their peers.

[EMT-83]

I'm not really sure where you're going with this topic, but I have some thoughts on kids and cars.

A major fund-raiser for our squadron is a parking detail at a large county fair. It runs an entire weekend, and it's an all-hands-on-deck event, where we park thousands of cars. Due to work or other commitments, seniors and cadets sometimes come and go during the weekend. There's a duty schedule, and everyone is required to sign in and out. We never collected car keys, and have allowed cadets access to their vehicles throughout the weekend. It been like this for as long as anyone can remember, and there's never been a problem.

Two years ago, a couple of cadet officers were on break at base camp. They were responsible for supervising their team of cadets. For whatever reason, they decided that it would be a great idea to drive the cadets around the fairgrounds... on the roof of the car. Here's a group of bright, responsible, intelligent kids doing something incredibly dumb. Needless to say, we now collect car keys and control access to vehicles.

Connecticut is a pretty small state, and we've had some recent incidents with young drivers that have caused a lot of attention. A 16 year-old, driving without a license, hit a tree and killed himself and three friends. All described as bright, talented kids. Another 16 year-year old driver hit a tree and critically injured his 15 year passenger. Another teen driver struck a bridge abutment on the way home from school, killing himself.

I'm not anti-cadet. I think our cadets are the brightest, most talented kids to be found - just like the ones described in news reports. Ask any medic, fireman or cop about kids and cars. I'm pretty sure that I can predict what they'll say.

You can jump up and down and scream that life isn't fair and we're picking on cadets. I can live with that.

[SABRE17]

As a 17 year old cadet, I've used my car for CAP ever since i got my license, I've driven 3 hours to SAREX's, 2 hours to the wings SAR school, and preformed missions with it. I've even used it in support of my units largest fundraiser/mission bringing a generator and equipment. and have manned check points at the same fundraiser with that car.

I've never been in trouble, gotten some weird looks when i attach the VHF antenna to the roof, but other wise never had a problem, and all the seniors in my unit know how responsible i am. However a certain person in our unit whose position is... up there, likes to peel out after meetings and drive like a you know what. Nothing's probably going to happen to him discipline wise until he crashes with cadets in his truck. id imagine that most other units are like that, lots of freedom till some one screws it up... sounds like gun control

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I don't understand the point of this thread, was the quoted post at the top originally nuked, or was this a pulld from another thread? If so, why did it have to be railed to another thread? Clarify PLEASE.

[Eclipse]

If you click the quote it takes you to the other thread.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

If you click the quote it takes you to the other thread.

Ah, thank you. Why not just continue on the original thread? The topic was already there.

Anyways, If a 19 or 20 year old cadet at an encampment had his keys, what is to stop him from going and getting things for other cadets at the activity at 0300? Just sets up for failure to me, and even sets yourself up for dangerous situations.

[a2capt]

Because the original thread had nothing to do with cadets and car keys in depth.

[ol'fido]

Most threads usually have nothing to do with uniforms either but an astonishing number end up there. :angel:

[Ron1319]

It's based on a case where the police should have been called because the wing conference staff would not give keys back to an adult cadet who wanted to leave because of harassment.  I would have fought handing over my keys just on principle and would have said, "No, they're mine, it's my car, and you don't have a right to confiscate them." My relationship with most seniors at that point was such that they would have trusted me and agreed.

Which does bring up the question -- why aren't 18-21 year old cadets formally in a different classification?  I'm almost positive that with the cadet protection requirement and common sense that they have to fall under the same insurance as seniors and not as the 12-17 year olds.

Except they are still cadets, and as such, the cadet program is .. modeled for all cadets.
I would have to think that the percentage of cadets in the 18 to 21 range that are going to fall into an area where they are going to be stubborn, intimidated or otherwise anti-authority is relatively small and if they are going to get into trouble and I suspect it's not going to be over retaining access to a POV to leave the activity.

Is this debate based on any actual cases of police being called, or cadets 18-21 being 'detained' at a CAP activity? We are responsible for minors entrusted to us at our activities not just by CAP regulation based on legalities and backed by experience, but also by trust between their parents and their peers.

[Ned]

My relationship with most seniors at that point was such that they would have trusted me and agreed.

When it invovles and encampment or an NCSA, it's not a matter of trust.  It's a remarkably unambiguous regulation that specfically requires cadets to surrender their keys.

I wholeheartedly trust and respect many cadet officers.  But I will not deliberately violate a regulation designed to protect them from harm.  Membes who deliberately violate regulations have a tendency to become ex-members.

[lordmonar]

It's based on a case where the police should have been called because the wing conference staff would not give keys back to an adult cadet who wanted to leave because of harassment.  I would have fought handing over my keys just on principle and would have said, "No, they're mine, it's my car, and you don't have a right to confiscate them." My relationship with most seniors at that point was such that they would have trusted me and agreed.

Which does bring up the question -- why aren't 18-21 year old cadets formally in a different classification?  I'm almost positive that with the cadet protection requirement and common sense that they have to fall under the same insurance as seniors and not as the 12-17 year olds.

Except they are still cadets, and as such, the cadet program is .. modeled for all cadets.
I would have to think that the percentage of cadets in the 18 to 21 range that are going to fall into an area where they are going to be stubborn, intimidated or otherwise anti-authority is relatively small and if they are going to get into trouble and I suspect it's not going to be over retaining access to a POV to leave the activity.

Is this debate based on any actual cases of police being called, or cadets 18-21 being 'detained' at a CAP activity? We are responsible for minors entrusted to us at our activities not just by CAP regulation based on legalities and backed by experience, but also by trust between their parents and their peers.

The point is that no one has a "right" to be at any CAP activity.
As a Cadet one of the "costs" of participating in CAP acitivities is to follow the rule.....if the rule is for cadets to hand over their keys....then you have to hand over the keys or go home....your choice.

[Ron1319]

I'm on board with the rules.  I'm still wondering about the liability part.  I'm also not entirely convinced that the rules are correct, but I understand the motivation for them.  I think it should be more clear that if a cadet of any age requests their keys back and is leaving the activity that they have that right and must be signed out and permitted to leave.

Again, only because I've seen it be a problem more than once, but not since about 1997 and we had some particularly rotten seniors at the time in high positions.  I was glad to be interning in NC and active there with pretty much exclusively good senior support.

[Ron1319]

And also we can't just make whatever rules we feel like.  And those rules have an impact.  If the impact is losing 18-21 year old cadets by making them feel like their being treated like children, then we're doing something seriously wrong. 

So we're clear, I'm 32, I drive an M5 and I'm not handing my keys over to anyone.

[lordmonar]

You have come very late to the over 18 cadet debate.

Bottom line...is the young adults don't like they way they are being treated as cadets....then they can become Flight Officers and not have to worry about the cadet rules.

You would not like my solution...........I would just end the cadet program at 18 and be done with it.  But Ned keeps telling me to shut up .

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I agree with Ned. 
I'm just kidding. I think if the cadet has a serious issue following the rules, then they have out grown the CP and need to change over anyways. If the really hate following the rules, I'm sorry but even SMs have to follow the rules, granted ours are different, but we still have them.

[Fly Boy]

I'm a 16 year old cadet and have had my license for about 6 months now. I NEVER allow ANYONE to ride in the bed of my truck or without a seat belt.

I agree with the current rules, Cadets should surrender their keys for an activity to prevent a "Hey guy's! Watch this!" moment. It also creates the feeling of "Oh well, might as well see this through to the end." at the activity, giving them the chance to actually have some fun and learn something.

Most threads usually have nothing to do with uniforms either but an astonishing number end up there. :angel:

There's a fad started by the local JROTC where you have a lanyard hanging out of your pocket with your keys attached.

[Ron1319]

And at 16 that's fine, but you lack the perspective of being 19, having your own apartment, your own own car, and being responsible for yourself rather than your parents being responsible for you.  This argument is not aimed at you, it's aimed at cadets who are legally adults and being treated like children.

Furthermore, if I plan an activity and I have to take your keys away in order for you to want to "see this through to the end," then there is something seriously wrong with my event planning abilities or the cadet's desire to participate in CAP.

[a2capt]

You still don't get it, do you?

Sure, they turn 18 and can legally make a decision on their own, and they decide to stay and continue as cadets, they are a cadet, these are the rules for cadets.  If they don't like it, they can switch to SM (As the appropriate FO) or they can quit. CAP has two programs, not three.

It's as if there's a solution being looked for, for a problem that does not exist.

This is our program, and these are the rules and boundaries it runs in, sign here, or don't sign here. It's  a package deal. Not a cafeteria plan.

[Fly Boy]

And at 16 that's fine, but you lack the perspective of being 19, having your own apartment, your own own car, and being responsible for yourself rather than your parents being responsible for you.

With all due respect,I feel I've had more then enough responsibility on my back for a 16 year old, trying to juggle CAP, NJROTC duties, and my school work in something close to AP (AICE http://www.cie.org.uk/qualifications/academic/uppersec/aice) classes. I also am also working on completing my Private Pilots License - Glider and the only form I have seen for parental consent is the membership application to the glider club.

This argument is not aimed at you, it's aimed at cadets who are legally adults and being treated like children.

Does that mean I can't comment on it? Maybe I was trying to bring up the perspective of the cadets in the age of 16-18 where they can drive and end up doing stupid things.

Furthermore, if I plan an activity and I have to take your keys away in order for you to want to "see this through to the end," then there is something seriously wrong with my event planning abilities or the cadet's desire to participate in CAP.

I'm sorry if at any time I insulted your activity planning skills. Alot of times I deal in stereotypes, sometimes you have to plan for the worst. People my age group are often inclined to get board of something quickly. If the cadet didn't want to participate, why would they sign their permission slip? The car would just be a distraction.

[Ron1319]

You still don't get it, do you?

Sure, they turn 18 and can legally make a decision on their own, and they decide to stay and continue as cadets, they are a cadet, these are the rules for cadets.  If they don't like it, they can switch to SM (As the appropriate FO) or they can quit. CAP has two programs, not three.

It's as if there's a solution being looked for, for a problem that does not exist.

This is our program, and these are the rules and boundaries it runs in, sign here, or don't sign here. It's  a package deal. Not a cafeteria plan.

Good thing I don't work for you.  That's not how I live my life.  I follow the rules in CAP, but I call it how I see it, and I fight the bad rules.  The city came after my business for permit fees even though they exempted a similar larger business and I went to the planning committee and apparently it went before the mayor and the chief of police and they gave me an exemption also.   Throwing my hands up and accepting life and the rules a a package deal is not my way.  If I did that, I'd still be in a grey cubicle slaving away as an engineer for Intel picking up progressively more hours and more responsibility for no more pay and taking more and more years off of my life.

And the problem DOES exist.  We have almost no Phase IV cadets left in the program and almost no cadets over 18.  They are our most valuable cadets to pass on good, mature leadership to the next generation. 

@Fly Boy, your perspective will be much different in two years, different still another two years after that and MUCH different five years after that.  And yes, those things you're juggling are important and I'm sure keep you busy, keep up the good work.  Stay with CAP as long as you can and find ways to mentor and train new cadets and new cadet officers once you achieve more and have more perspective.  About the best example I can give you is that if you consider your perspective at 13 years old compared to your perspective now, you can see that you've grown up a lot in only three years.  You will feel the same way at 25 about yourself at 16.

My entire argument has only been specifically that we need to not unnecessarily put restrictions on cadets, especially if it costs us retention and especially if it makes Phase IV cadets or cadets who are over 18 decide that partying with their college friends is more important and more fun than CAP.  I used to drive away from my college friends to go to CAP stuff.  There was real value in it both for me and those I was in charge of.

[Eclipse]

And the problem DOES exist.  We have almost no Phase IV cadets left in the program and almost no cadets over 18.  They are our most valuable cadets to pass on good, mature leadership to the next generation. 

Which has 100% absolutley nothing to do with POV's at encampments (or cubicles for that matter).

My entire argument has only been specifically that we need to not unnecessarily put restrictions on cadets, especially if it costs us retention

It.

Doesn't.

In fact, the only members who tend to make an issue of this are seniors who are unaffected, assuming cadets care.

I used to drive away from my college friends to go to CAP stuff.  There was real value in it both for me and those I was in charge of.

And the value is diminished because you don't have instant access to your car?

The majority of cadets don't think this is an issue, or that their rights as adults are being unfairly infringed
because by a long shot the majority of 18-21 year old cadets are not functioning as independant adults.

Most are either in the early phases of military training, college on mom and dad's dime, or
living at home, doing the best they can trying to figure out what to do with their lives and
hoping they have a functional plan before Mom or Dad rents out their room.

[PA Guy]

And the problem DOES exist.  We have almost no Phase IV cadets left in the program and almost no cadets over 18.  They are our most valuable cadets to pass on good, mature leadership to the next generation. 

Does anyone know what kind of numbers we are talking about?  How many 18+ cadets are there in CAP?  How many are in pick a wing?  My sense is that the number has been about the same for many yrs or maybe even up a little.