The CAP NCO Program - your experience?

[etodd]

When I walk into a typical SAREX or actual mission ... most of the members are walking around wearing a polo shirt.  There are no stripes or bling to be seen. No one salutes anyone, we don't have a clue what rank anyone is. I just see a bunch of tables with computers on them, and these little paper signs on the front held on with scotch tape. One is the check-in table, another will be communications, another operations, public affairs, etc., etc.

Just a bunch of volunteers with specific quals to sit at a table and get a job done. At the end of the day, somehow it all works.

Its all about qualifications.  (JMHO)

[Private Investigator]

I am curious.   

I am curious too. Are you a Veteran?

Everyone gets something different out of CAP. Some members are content with the polo shirt and slacks. They can do AE and/or ES. Now everyone who does Cadet Programs wear a uniform. If your a retired or former Airman you have uniforms already. Also after being a Sergeant for 20+ years why would you want to be a 2nd Lieutenant?

You have an "epic fail poll" because it is one sided. Also you did not include, "Bacon" in the poll.

[exarmyguard]

Just my opinion. As a past military member, I joined CAP not to extend my military experience, rather to have new experience with a diverse group of people, who happen to be non-military. If I wanted to continue wearing my stripes, I would have reenlisted. My 2 cents.

[AirDX]

The prior service individual that comes in the door and wants to do traditional NCO stuff is pretty rare in my experience. The active, reserve, NG, or prior service NCOs that have come into units I have been in have all wanted to be aircrew or pilots. A few enjoyed the ground team aspect, and all were happy to be CAP officers. I spent a lot of time as a PD officer getting them equivalencies for CAP PD quals, so they could advance in grade.

That said, if I had a former DS/1st Sgt/Sgt Major waltz into my squadron and want to take over the cadet corps in terms of D&C, customs and courtesies, uniform wear, military bearing, traditional NCO-type work as a CAP NCO, I would welcome them with open arms. I'm not seeing them come through the door though.

The bottom line is that we are a civilian volunteer organization. Very few squadrons have so many people that all the niches are filled. If you join and want to support the program, you are going to get management tasks, whether you like them or not. Most of us at squadron level wear multiple hats - not ideal, but reality. We'd all love to shed some of them. The real go-getters among us tend to wind up with multiple hats at multiple levels: squadron, group, wing, region. Again far from ideal, but reality.

The CAP officer structure is not ideal from an outside perspective, but at this point it is what it is. I wouldn't mind being a flight officer, or a warrant, or whatever. All those years ago, though, when I walked in the door, I started working my way up the ladder as it existed and still exists. I've worked hard for those little gold oak leaves, and I'm working hard for the silver ones. Take them away and I will be PO'ed. It's an internal thing though, since I almost always wear a polo shirt when in uniform. Rank isn't showing, and is largely irrelevant. As stated up topic, qualifications are what talks... qualified bodies in jobs. Rank matters not.

I was off on an ELT mission a while back. A Colonel, former wing commander, served as van driver. I, a major, and then wing director of safety, served as general help. And 4 cadets did the actual work of locating and silencing the EPIRB. Did the rank matter? Nope. The job did.

This screed is long enough, so I will sign off... see you in six months for the same debate.   

[Holding Pattern]

An explanation of the NCO program is now available in the Level 2 E&T documents.

[Holding Pattern]

That said, if I had a former DS/1st Sgt/Sgt Major waltz into my squadron and want to take over the cadet corps in terms of D&C, customs and courtesies, uniform wear, military bearing, traditional NCO-type work as a CAP NCO, I would welcome them with open arms. I'm not seeing them come through the door though.

Very rarely do highly qualified individuals just "waltz into a squadron." You want more people, you advertise.

The NCO program gives you a way to advertise for those things. Use it.

[TheSkyHornet]

When a real world mission happens in CAP.  The calls go out. And whoever can get away from work/family/etc. shows up. It can be a sparse crew. And at that point its a matter of filling job slots to get the mission done. Rank goes out the window. Its all about ES Quals.

The majority of CAP isn't people conducting real-world missions.

The bulk of the people are support staff members and trainers, not field operatives. While many of these people, maybe even the majority population of CAP members, are qualified in some form of Emergency Services 101 Card statistic, they're not actively engaged in conducting live missions nor are they actually willing to go out when a call rolls in (and that has varying reasons, whether due to actual interest, availability, or frequency of occurrence in their locale).

So I think saying that the grades don't affect the mission when the call comes in is an accurate statement. But it really doesn't have anything to do with the reality that most members don't go on calls to begin with anyway. I think it's a bland correlation.


The CAP NCO program is, at its most effective use, a recruiting drive to bring in members. Once those members are in the door, they're rarely used as NCOs. I think this comes from the fact that most CAP officers are not prior military, and the so-called "civilians" don't have any distinction in what an NCO is other than being prior service. I've seen far too many "civies" get star-struck by members wearing NCO insignia.

I remember working with our Wing Director of Professional Development. I had no idea whether he was military or not, nor did I really care. I worked under him as a lieutenant when he was a captain. On one occasion, I noticed he was wearing an NDS on his ribbon rack. I thought, "Huh, I guess he is military. I guess that explains the tone." But I thought little more than that. Magically, the next time I ran into him, he was in master sergeant stripes. I said to him, "I didn't know you were an NCO." He told me about his military days, and that he was a CAP officer solely because he couldn't be a squadron commander as an NCO; once his tenure was over, he switched back to NCO status.

Nothing had changed, period. He went from being an NCO to being an officer back to being an NCO. And in my entire time knowing him, over the last five years or so now, nothing has changed other than being able to be called Commander and hold the post for a few years. Other than that, it's the same person, with the same training in CAP, holding the other same duty positions beyond just that one.

Until that point, I was always in that mindset of "The NCO Corps is extremely valuable in ensuring that we have a backbone of members who can help us supervise and execute our missions." After that, I realized that there really isn't any difference. In fact, NCOs are somewhat short-changed (if we're going to treat them as any other members and not actually utilize an NCO Corps as compared to military usage).

I've known other CAP officers over the years who were senior NCOs in the military, and every time I ask them why they didn't go the NCO route, the response I get is, "Why? I can do everything as an officer as I could as an NCO, except hold command." I know a former E-8 who is a Chaplain (and couldn't be as an NCO); he was also a squadron commander until just recently. I know another former E-8 who is a Group Commander. And Stonewall here, as said on other threads, is currently an E-9 who also serves as a Group Commander. 

So really, is this an important subject that needs further discussion?

[JohhnyD]

The majority of CAP isn't people conducting real-world missions.

In my unit we do a LOT of missions. And we train for them, a lot.

So really, is this an important subject that needs further discussion?

I certainly thought so. YMMV.

Oh and we have a growing cadet program that command tells us is the focus for the NCO program, and I am now thinking this is a really good idea. Especially since so many of the "old guard" (read that perennial naysayers here) seem wildly opposed.

[JohhnyD]

The NCO program gives you a way to advertise for those things. Use it.

That appears to be the command intent in my unit. Stimulated, I believe, by the large number of RSC attendees this year.

[Private Investigator]

... I remember working with our Wing Director of Professional Development. I had no idea whether he was military or not, nor did I really care. I worked under him as a lieutenant when he was a captain. On one occasion, I noticed he was wearing an NDS on his ribbon rack. I thought, "Huh, I guess he is military. I guess that explains the tone." But I thought little more than that. Magically, the next time I ran into him, he was in master sergeant stripes. I said to him, "I didn't know you were an NCO." He told me about his military days, and that he was a CAP officer solely because he couldn't be a squadron commander as an NCO; once his tenure was over, he switched back to NCO status.

Nothing had changed, period. He went from being an NCO to being an officer back to being an NCO. And in my entire time knowing him, over the last five years or so now, nothing has changed other than being able to be called Commander and hold the post for a few years. Other than that, it's the same person, with the same training in CAP, holding the other same duty positions beyond just that one.

Good points. What ever it takes to get people to meetings.

[NovemberWhiskey]

The part that's not very clear to me is whether the NCO program is supposed to be establishing specific jobs to be done by officers and "NCOs" (I'm just putting this in air quotes because CAP senior members with officer grade are obviously not commissioned either), and therefore different approaches to training and development.

If not, and "NCOs" participate in the same professional development program as other senior members, execute the same responsibilities etc. then it seems really we're just looking at a uniform variation.

If the uniform variation permits better recruitment and retention, by fitting better with the self-image of (potential) senior members then that perhaps justifies it. But it doesn't make for much of a program, per se.

I am aware of the now-expired ICL 18-06 to CAPR 20-1. By and large, the various org-chart "NCO" roles are to encourage engagement between "NCOs" and other CAP membership, and to recruit more "NCOs". It is almost defined by lack of a specific purpose other than to self-sustain.

[JohhnyD]

The part that's not very clear to me is whether the NCO program is supposed to be establishing specific jobs to be done by officers and "NCOs" (I'm just putting this in air quotes because CAP senior members with officer grade are obviously not commissioned either), and therefore different approaches to training and development.

If not, and "NCOs" participate in the same professional development program as other senior members, execute the same responsibilities etc. then it seems really we're just looking at a uniform variation.

If the uniform variation permits better recruitment and retention, by fitting better with the self-image of (potential) senior members then that perhaps justifies it. But it doesn't make for much of a program, per se.

The NCO program has been a number of things, at least from my perspective. First, well hidden. Second poorly executed and explained. Your post hits the heart of what I perceive as the real issue. From what my unit CC says, it is a recruitment tool, and a way to recruit people with specific attributes that will be very valuable, especially in the Cadet Programs arena. There are finally new tools that have rolled out in PD that supposedly answer more questions. I downloaded them, have yet to have time to study them. (Darn this working for a living!)

[TheSkyHornet]

What ever it takes to get people to meetings.

I think that's a comment to tread lightly with, and it really depends on the individuals that you're bringing to those meetings.

If someone won't stay in CAP because they can't be called this or that, then I think there's a concern about that individual's buy-in for the CAP vision and mission. We reward accomplishments with decorations, certificates, etc. How much do we reward self-gratification?

That said, if we can get someone in who is otherwise hesitant to join, and the final straw that really grabs them is the ability to "be an NCO again," well then, that's a great carrot to bring in someone with that experience. But I think that still needs to have a caution on it, and should really be taken with a grain of salt.

People join CAP for many reasons, and they stay because of many reasons. I don't think a lot of people stick around based on what their title is or their bling. It helps, sure. But I think those that are really in this for the long run, that stay for years on end, do so because they feel a sense of fulfillment. And it's that fulfillment that we maybe don't do the greatest job of promoting in the recruiting drive. On top of that, we really need to push that whole "giving back" part, especially when it comes to Cadet Programs.

I was that guy early on who wanted to get every new member in the door that I could muster because I needed the help. Now I've learned that while I still need the help, I don't want that help from every person who comes in the door. I'm extremely skeptical and picky nowadays because of who I have had that experience with in the past, for better or worse.

If someone is a prior E-8, and they want to join CAP, and I say "Well, if you someday want a command role, you'll have to be an officer," and they throw a fit about that, I'm really not comfortable with how that individual will respond to the other elements of Level 1 training, and any other requirements they may have to undergo. I'll give it a shot, but I'm probably not going to do everything in my power to convince them to join. I've made that mistake already.

If someone is a prior E-4, and they really want to be an NCO, and they're super gung-ho about it; well, I'm also skeptical. This person did not have much experience as a military NCO to begin with, and they may seem a bit eager to jump right in (and I need to instill some patience in them as they grasp the new environment and take it all in).

Former NCOs, even former military (period) for that matter bring something to the table, particularly when working with cadets. But we don't really employ the NCO role in CAP. And I think, unless you're going to use them in that role from the get-go, be prepared to explain that to the individual who wants to wear stripes. There are things they can't do despite being on virtually the same track as everyone else.

[Mitchell 1969]

Former NCOs, even former military (period) for that matter bring something to the table, particularly when working with cadets.

I've been hearing this, or variations on that theme, for years. Somehow we ended on an endless loop of "NCOs are good for cadets, they bring special skills."

The reality is that SOME might, SOME might not. There is no one size, fits all that magically makes all NCOs suddenly become adept at working with cadets. Heck, some of them could be absolute disasters working with them and others may have no interest at all in working with them. It's no different than military officers or anybody else joining CAP. Some can do it and want to. Some are better suited to other tasks and we shouldn't have preconceived notions.

My hat is off to the NCOs who are talented and interested in working with our cadets. But can we give it a rest as to claiming that they are all suited to it?


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[THRAWN]

What ever it takes to get people to meetings.

If someone is a prior E-4, and they really want to be an NCO, and they're super gung-ho about it; well, I'm also skeptical. This person did not have much experience as a military NCO to begin with, and they may seem a bit eager to jump right in (and I need to instill some patience in them as they grasp the new environment and take it all in).

 

Marine corporals and PO3s, especially Coasties, disagree with this statement.

[exarmyguard]

When I volunteer with the Red Cross, I don't feel the need to put my old rank on. My 2 cents.

[SarDragon]

What ever it takes to get people to meetings.

If someone is a prior E-4, and they really want to be an NCO, and they're super gung-ho about it; well, I'm also skeptical. This person did not have much experience as a military NCO to begin with, and they may seem a bit eager to jump right in (and I need to instill some patience in them as they grasp the new environment and take it all in).

 

Marine corporals and PO3s, especially Coasties, disagree with this statement.

It's still pretty easy to find PO3s with minimal leadership training/skills. Go to an advanced tech school, sign up for two more years, and you have an instant PO3. We called them "rent-a-crows". It is possible for someone to spend over a year in a training environment, be an NCO, and never do real NCO stuff, particularly supervision.

[AirDX]

The NCO program gives you a way to advertise for those things. Use it.

Not so much. Who advertises specifically for NCOs... we're looking for more members of all types, thus open houses, recruiting cadet cohorts, etc. And that person very, very rarely waltzes, sambas, two-steps, or foxtrots through the door.

[Fubar]

My hat is off to the NCOs who are talented and interested in working with our cadets. But can we give it a rest as to claiming that they are all suited to it?

In my experience they're just like every other volunteer that walks in the door. Some are able to leverage their previous experiences to enhance our organization, others fall upon previous experiences that while valid in their context, are at best not helpful to CAP and at worst harmful. For every NCO that walks right in as a value-add is that NCO who walks in and has everyone upturned with traditions and expectations that are not compatible with CAP.

I would think brand new members who are recruited under the guise of "we need super NCOs!" would be confused by CAP's paradigm where grade/rank doesn't actually matter. I know when I interact with military NCOs they are often confused when I explain that no, you're not required to have a college degree to be an officer in CAP and our NCOs do the exact same work as our officers.

I mean even the terminology doesn't make sense. All CAP officers are non-commissioned officers.

[TheSkyHornet]

I mean even the terminology doesn't make sense. All CAP officers are non-commissioned officers.

That moment when the Navy already has this system set up...

Unrestricted Line Officers:
Eligible to hold command; perform a variety of advanced mission roles

Restricted Line Officer:
Not eligible to hold command; perform a variety of advanced skill roles and oversight

Limited Duty Officers:
Specialized skill officers without a Bachelor's degree receiving a commission through a shortened training program (often prior-NCOs)


This is all anecdotal, of course. My point is that we focus so much on titles and ranks when we have enough of a time keeping people in CAP to begin with and performing our mission to a quality level.

If telling someone that they get to don stripes again gets them to metaphorically raise their hand and swear in, so be it. Now, what are we doing to keep them motivated to stay? And what complexities are we adding to an already complex training environment by duplicating terminology with the exact same outcome?

I would love it if my squadron had three officers and six NCOs to manage our cadet training program, plus whatever the heck the rest of the senior members in the squadron do that I don't talk to regularly. It would make way more sense to me based on where the strategic planning is conducted between those of us that do officer-level work and those who do NCO-level work from what I'm accustomed to. It makes sense to me, and it's an environment that I could adapt to.

We're backward in the sense of having a corps of 95% officers and only a handful of NCOs (arbitrary statistics). It should be the reverse, even considering that most CAP officers don't do planning and they don't actually command people, or even manage a staff for that matter. It makes no sense to me to have an O-3 sitting at the comms desk all evening playing on the radio and installing an antenna, and the E-7 is out conducting O-Flights at the same time as PIC. But, that's one of those CAP-isms. This is what it looks like when grades and titles mean absolutely nothing other than serving to identify how far in the senior education program you've advanced.

Essentially, in this organization, at least at the squadron level, there is so much flexibility to run the squadron in the way the commander sees fit; it doesn't really matter what the "NCO role" is designed to do, or where those differences between officers and NCOs exist either on paper, in guidance, or on any wish list. Commanders will employ staffs to fill the needs of the squadron by the people who volunteer to take on those tasks. Units often have only a few senior members show up on a given meeting night, so there's no room to even put people into "grade-appropriate" roles. It's all moot in the end.

We continue to talk about how to best use NCOs when many units struggle to even get support from their existing membership. So if a member wants to be called "Sergeant," and is willing to help out wherever, that's better than picking a fight. And if we were to only institute officer ranks, and that same person says "I'm leaving if I can't wear stripes," well then, bye.

Let's focus on the important stuff : the duties and responsibilities that need to be carried out.

What's it going to take to motivate someone to do that?