Veterans Day uniform wear?

[C/SrA Ravlin]

Hi all,
I heard this week that you can wear your blues or BDU uniform on a few certain days out of the year and that Veterans Day is one of them. Is this true?
Thanks in advance,
C/ARMN Ravlin.

[AlphaSigOU]

Hi all,
I heard this week that you can wear your blues or BDU uniform on a few certain days out of the year and that Veterans Day is one of them. Is this true?
Thanks in advance,
C/ARMN Ravlin.

Only with your squadron commander's permission.  And if you do receive permission to wear it, wear it properly.

[Storm Chaser]

Here's the direct quote from CAPM 39-1:

CAP members attending a military or civilian event representing CAP must determine whether wear of the uniform is appropriate, must obtain their commander's permission to attend the event in uniform, and must wear the uniform most appropriate to the situation based on formality and the commander's direction.

As a side not, the correct abbreviation for Cadet Airman is C/Amn (CAPP 151).

[MSG Mac]

Talk to your Squadron Commander about wear of the uniform on any occasion that's not a meeting day.

[JK657]

My question is why would you want to?

Are you doing it to honor veterans or to honor yourself?

[kwe1009]

Please review CAPR 39-1 1.2.4 and 1.2.7 .  If it is not a CAP event or you are not representing CAP in an official capacity then you are NOT authorized to wear the uniform no matter what your commander may say.  Your squadron commander can't authorize you to wear it if it violates 39-1.

Unless you are actually in the military, a vet, or are in an official CAP role, you should never wear the uniform on military related holidays.  I will put JROTC and ROTC in that category as well.  Cadets (CAP, JROTC, ROTC) are not part of the military and it simply looks like you are trying to benefit from the extra attention.

If you want to honor the military on Veteran's Day or any other day, go visit a VA hospital or VFW/American Legion and thank those men and women for their service and sacrifices.  That will mean more than wearing a CAP uniform any day.

[lordmonar]

Please review CAPR 39-1 1.2.4 and 1.2.7 .  If it is not a CAP event or you are not representing CAP in an official capacity then you are NOT authorized to wear the uniform no matter what your commander may say.  Your squadron commander can't authorize you to wear it if it violates 39-1.

Be careful with telling C/Amn to ignore the lawful orders of their commanders.   And yes squadron commanders can order you to violate regulations.

[Storm Chaser]

Please review CAPR 39-1 1.2.4 and 1.2.7 .  If it is not a CAP event or you are not representing CAP in an official capacity then you are NOT authorized to wear the uniform no matter what your commander may say.  Your squadron commander can't authorize you to wear it if it violates 39-1.

Be careful with telling C/Amn to ignore the lawful orders of their commanders.   And yes squadron commanders can order you to violate regulations.

In this particular case, the commander is not ordering this cadet to do anything. The cadet is the one who wants to, presumably, ask for permission to wear his uniform.

And for the record, a commander's authority derives from the regulations, so it cannot be above them. We're not required to blindly obey our commander's orders. If a commander willfully violates a regulation, except under certain conditions such as safety, the commander himself is disobeying an order from the National Commander, who approves every regulation.

[lordmonar]

In this particular case, the commander is not ordering this cadet to do anything. The cadet is the one who wants to, presumably, ask for permission to wear his uniform.

In this particular case it was some random CAPTALKer telling some random CAP Cadet what that cadet's commander could or could not authorize...i.e. order.   

Chain of command.

And for the record, a commander's authority derives from the regulations, so it cannot be above them. We're not required to blindly obey our commander's orders. If a commander willfully violates a regulation, except under certain conditions such as safety, the commander himself is disobeying an order from the National Commander, who approves every regulation.

Just like we don't blindly follow orders neither should we blindly follow the regulations....which are simply printed orders.  Ergo....your whole line of reasoning breaks down.   There are times and places when we need to not follow orders.    We appoint leaders in positions of authority to interpret those orders and make the decision on when and where to disregard them.   When a member has received conflicting orders the default fall back is to follow the chain of command to resolve them.

So in this case.....where Random Squadron Commander says "Everyone wear your uniforms to school for veterans day" it is improper for random CAP-TALKER to tell said cadet to ignore that authorization.   It is proper to point out to the commander what you think the reg actually says.  It is proper to notify the commander's chain of command of what is going on.  It is proper to contact the IG.   It is improper to undermine the authority of the commander and countermand his/her orders...unless you are in that commander's chain of command.

Here ends the the lesson.

[Garibaldi]

In this particular case, the commander is not ordering this cadet to do anything. The cadet is the one who wants to, presumably, ask for permission to wear his uniform.

In this particular case it was some random CAPTALKer telling some random CAP Cadet what that cadet's commander could or could not authorize...i.e. order.   

Chain of command.

And for the record, a commander's authority derives from the regulations, so it cannot be above them. We're not required to blindly obey our commander's orders. If a commander willfully violates a regulation, except under certain conditions such as safety, the commander himself is disobeying an order from the National Commander, who approves every regulation.

Just like we don't blindly follow orders neither should we blindly follow the regulations....which are simply printed orders.  Ergo....your whole line of reasoning breaks down.   There are times and places when we need to not follow orders.    We appoint leaders in positions of authority to interpret those orders and make the decision on when and where to disregard them.   When a member has received conflicting orders the default fall back is to follow the chain of command to resolve them.

So in this case.....where Random Squadron Commander says "Everyone wear your uniforms to school for veterans day" it is improper for random CAP-TALKER to tell said cadet to ignore that authorization.   It is proper to point out to the commander what you think the reg actually says.  It is proper to notify the commander's chain of command of what is going on.  It is proper to contact the IG.   It is improper to undermine the authority of the commander and countermand his/her orders...unless you are in that commander's chain of command.

Here ends the the lesson.

*raises hand*

Does that apply for when we get teh digitalz? 

[lordmonar]

*raises hand*

Does that apply for when we get teh digitalz? 

10 points from Griffendor!

[Storm Chaser]

In this particular case, the commander is not ordering this cadet to do anything. The cadet is the one who wants to, presumably, ask for permission to wear his uniform.

In this particular case it was some random CAPTALKer telling some random CAP Cadet what that cadet's commander could or could not authorize...i.e. order.   

Chain of command.

And for the record, a commander's authority derives from the regulations, so it cannot be above them. We're not required to blindly obey our commander's orders. If a commander willfully violates a regulation, except under certain conditions such as safety, the commander himself is disobeying an order from the National Commander, who approves every regulation.

Just like we don't blindly follow orders neither should we blindly follow the regulations....which are simply printed orders.  Ergo....your whole line of reasoning breaks down.   There are times and places when we need to not follow orders.    We appoint leaders in positions of authority to interpret those orders and make the decision on when and where to disregard them.   When a member has received conflicting orders the default fall back is to follow the chain of command to resolve them.

So in this case.....where Random Squadron Commander says "Everyone wear your uniforms to school for veterans day" it is improper for random CAP-TALKER to tell said cadet to ignore that authorization.   It is proper to point out to the commander what you think the reg actually says.  It is proper to notify the commander's chain of command of what is going on.  It is proper to contact the IG.   It is improper to undermine the authority of the commander and countermand his/her orders...unless you are in that commander's chain of command.

Here ends the the lesson.

It's also improper to tell random cadets (or senior members for that matter) that a "squadron commander can order you to violate regulations."

Remember, not everyone who reads these boards understands or can make the distinction. Other than that, your explanation above is reasonable.

[lordmonar]

How is it improper to explain to our young cadets the true nature of our system of leadership?

Are you telling me it is proper to lie to my cadets? 

[Garibaldi]

How is it improper to explain to our young cadets the true nature of our system of leadership?

Are you telling me it is proper to lie to my cadets? 

A cadet shall not lie, cheat, or steal, nor tolerate them among their peers. It says nothing about Senior Members.

[lordmonar]

How is it improper to explain to our young cadets the true nature of our system of leadership?

Are you telling me it is proper to lie to my cadets? 

A cadet shall not lie, cheat, or steal, nor tolerate them among their peers. It says nothing about Senior Members.

10 more points from Griffendor and you now have detention in the Forbidden Forest!

[TheSkyHornet]

How is it improper to explain to our young cadets the true nature of our system of leadership?

Are you telling me it is proper to lie to my cadets? 

A cadet shall not lie, cheat, or steal, nor tolerate them among their peers. It says nothing about Senior Members.

10 more points from Griffendor and you now have detention in the Forbidden Forest!

[Spam]

Dangit, Garibaldi, thanks a lot!  Now I have to get the woodland camo invisibility cloak out and the EF Johnson time piece and go back to fix this, or we lose our Quality Cadet Unit Award and He Who Shall Not Be Named will return as National Commander.

Jeez....

V/R
Spam

[Garibaldi]

You could just suspend my OPSQUALS and take away my pointy stick

[Storm Chaser]

How is it improper to explain to our young cadets the true nature of our system of leadership?

Are you telling me it is proper to lie to my cadets? 

Now you're just trolling.

Ask your commander = Good
Follow your chain of command = Good
Listen to/obey your commander = Good
Your commander can order you to violate the regulations = Bad

How you say things is as important as what you say.

[lordmonar]

How is it improper to explain to our young cadets the true nature of our system of leadership?

Are you telling me it is proper to lie to my cadets? 

Now you're just trolling.

Ask your commander = Good
Follow your chain of command = Good
Listen to/obey your commander = Good
Your commander can order you to violate the regulations = Bad

But "Your commander can order you to violate the regulations" is a true statement.
How is telling them that fact bad?

Sure...we got to put it into proper context.......sure we always put in the caveat about using experience, command intention, mission vs regs, safety, legal orders vs order against regulations.

But to say "you should not say such things" is not educating our cadets on the proper use of authority and leadership.

[TheSkyHornet]

Ask your commander = Good
Follow your chain of command = Good
Listen to/obey your commander = Good
Your commander can order you to violate the regulations = Bad

How you say things is as important as what you say.

And in addition to this, if you know your commander is ordering you to violate regulations, and you think something improper is occurring, address it with him/her. If it seems to get worse, use the chain of command to address it further if needed.

There's a system in place for this issue.

[Garibaldi]

How is it improper to explain to our young cadets the true nature of our system of leadership?

Are you telling me it is proper to lie to my cadets? 

Now you're just trolling.

Ask your commander = Good
Follow your chain of command = Good
Listen to/obey your commander = Good
Your commander can order you to violate the regulations = Bad

But "Your commander can order you to violate the regulations" is a true statement.
How is telling them that fact bad?

Sure...we got to put it into proper context.......sure we always put in the caveat about using experience, command intention, mission vs regs, safety, legal orders vs order against regulations.

But to say "you should not say such things" is not educating our cadets on the proper use of authority and leadership.

Unless it involves Corporate assets, pretty much anything coming out of your commander's mouth can be either ignored or followed. What is the punishment for not following an "illegal" order not involving cadets or Corporate assets? 2B?

We can't force anyone to do anything. We can't really order anyone to do anything, since either the person being ordered can take their ball and go home, or the commander can just 2B the individual. We have no legal authority over anything but the Corporate assets given us, or cadets' well being. Those I can see having justifiable legal and ethical ramifications.

But not "Thou shalt wear your uniform to school to celebrate the equinox".

[Storm Chaser]

How is it improper to explain to our young cadets the true nature of our system of leadership?

Are you telling me it is proper to lie to my cadets? 

Now you're just trolling.

Ask your commander = Good
Follow your chain of command = Good
Listen to/obey your commander = Good
Your commander can order you to violate the regulations = Bad

But "Your commander can order you to violate the regulations" is a true statement.

So is "but you can refuse to obey his order of you think he's not right."

How is telling them that fact bad?

You answer your own question below.

Sure...we got to put it into proper context.......sure we always put in the caveat about using experience, command intention, mission vs regs, safety, legal orders vs order against regulations.

But to say "you should not say such things" is not educating our cadets on the proper use of authority and leadership.

If you were attempting to "educate" our cadets, then the lesson was incomplete.

Sure, my commander can order me not to follow a regulation. I can also refuse to follow his orders. Which one is right? It depends on the order given, who's giving it, the regulation in question, the circumstances and context of the situation, among other factors. As you know, it's not always black and white, and neither was your statement.

[lordmonar]

How you say things is as important as what you say.

Which if you go back to my original post.....more or less what I said. 

Be careful with telling C/Amn to ignore the lawful orders of their commanders.   And yes squadron commanders can order you to violate regulations.

[lordmonar]

If you were attempting to "educate" our cadets, then the lesson was incomplete.

Sure, my commander can order me not to follow a regulation. I can also refuse to follow his orders. Which one is right? It depends on the order given, who's giving it, the regulation in question, the circumstances and context of the situation, among other factors. As you know, it's not always black and white, and neither was your statement.

So....I was right.....but I did not include the whole one hour education session.

okay...got it.

[Storm Chaser]

If you were attempting to "educate" our cadets, then the lesson was incomplete.

Sure, my commander can order me not to follow a regulation. I can also refuse to follow his orders. Which one is right? It depends on the order given, who's giving it, the regulation in question, the circumstances and context of the situation, among other factors. As you know, it's not always black and white, and neither was your statement.

So....I was right.....but I did not include the whole one hour education session.

okay...got it.

If you would've done right the first time, it would've taken half the time.

[kwe1009]

Please review CAPR 39-1 1.2.4 and 1.2.7 .  If it is not a CAP event or you are not representing CAP in an official capacity then you are NOT authorized to wear the uniform no matter what your commander may say.  Your squadron commander can't authorize you to wear it if it violates 39-1.

Be careful with telling C/Amn to ignore the lawful orders of their commanders.   And yes squadron commanders can order you to violate regulations.

Exactly where did I tell anyone to ignore any order?  I said that the squadron commander can't authorize something and that is true.  The commander could certainly give an unlawful order and if the receiver of that order knows or believes it is unlawful then they should address that with the commander. 

There are many different circumstances here that could change how a person should proceed so I am just talking about wearing the CAP uniform when you should not.

[PHall]

Pat, knock it off, you know better...

[lordmonar]

Sorry.   Sometimes I just can't keep the voices quiet.

[SarDragon]

[Elihu.Lowery]

It is interesting how fast the threads can move sideways on these post and it is intriguing how you can tell how experienced or educated one is by how fast they can find a problem for every solution. You can take a problem to a Jr NCO and get a working solution within a few mins but take the same problem to a SNCO or an Officer and they will take it to a committee and argue over all the points of the issue for a week or more than up channel it to a review board for final determination (since none of them wants to held accountable if its wrong). The Review Board will then down channel the solution to you but by then the mission is already over. This is kind of what happens on these discussion boards. The Cadet asked a simple question about being able to wear the uniform during Veterans Day. What should have been a simple answer has become: No, Yes, maybe, ask the Commander, ignore the Commander, obey the Commander, and/or follow the chain of command. I served over 9yrs in the Air Force and am now employed as a AF civilian Security Forces member I understand the topic of illegal orders but a new CAP Cadet would not have an idea as to what is being discussed and the cadet has wisely dropped this thread like the hot potato that it is. However the simple answer to the question is: Ask your Commander and if the Commander gives the wrong answer then its on the Commander not the Cadet.

[SMWOG]

 :clap: buy that man a drink!

[Pace]

*lock*