Verification of Action

[UWONGO2]

Someone in my squadron recently was put in for a life saving certificate for stopping at an accident scene and providing care to a seriously injured driver. The award was denied because there was no documentation that the member was actually at the accident scene in the accident report.

Obviously folks shouldn't be harassing law enforcement or EMS providers at accident scenes to ensure their name gets on a piece of paper somewhere for later verification - in fact I'd hope nobody is stopping to provide care with thoughts of an award in the back of their mind. At the same time, verification of a member's actions seem prudent to maintain the legitimacy of the award.

How has your leadership chain handled this type of scenario?

[Pylon]

Why couldn't the member or the squadron commander signing the CAPF 120 just reach out to the local police/EMS/fire folks who were on scene and ask if they could just write a brief e-mail or letter acknowledging the CAP member and what they saw of his or her role in the response effort? 

I don't see why it would have to be in some official accident report to be verified.  But if the member took actions that resulted in the life being saved, he or she would, in all likelihood, have had a lot of interaction with the first responders on the scene as they got pertinent info from him or her, and then took over.  Someone should remember him or her.

[a2capt]

We had this happen, too. On the way back from the opening of a CAP unit weekend event, one of the parents could not stay, but he came out, did some rocket launch instruction, and had to leave and return home. Along the mountain switchback road he came across a rather serious accident, couple of kids, newly minted driver, very badly injured and by the time he was done, he was shirtless and somewhat covered in blood, and still needed to get gas to finish the route home, upon reaching civilization. This would be the second time this individual came across a scene like this in similar circumstances.

We got back basically the same thing, and he was not really interested in the citation, but we tried and the CHP wouldn't help with it as they didn't want to say or admit to anything, he tried contacting the officer(s) and got no where. They knew he was there, they so much as said that without the assistance there was a strong likeliness that two of them would have probably not made it. It was close to a half hour before anyone came on scene, he said one person slowed to ask if 911 had been called, but other than that, nada.

He did say he was darn surprised he even got home after stopping at the gas station, he had to go in and pay, and figured there'd be some explaining to do as the cops would be called for .. well, he looked rather .. interesting.

Eventually we just dropped it, as time marches on, it's harder and harder to get the officials to recollect it. They don't exchange names and what not, and it's awful hard to just run up to them and say "i'm so-and-so.. " perhaps a business card if your one that has some, hand it to the responders, etc. But..

[lordmonar]

While I understand Command's intent to keep everyone honest and keep the standards high....sometimes you got to say COME ON PEOPLE!

Sometimes we have to take the originator's word for it and trust them to do be honest.

In my AD career...there were a lot of ribbons I had to "prove" that I BTDT.  But those ususally did not count for anything.

For all my AFAM, AFCM, JSAM, DMSM and MSMs and a handful of others my supervisors wrote them up and forward them up the chain of command.

The people who approved them ususally did not even know who I was let alone if I actually did anything listed in the write ups.

We trust the system, that if Airman (or Senior Member) X tells his supervisor "I saved a life yesterday" then the supervisor does the verification and forwards it up.

I mean if we required proof for each and every action.....how many Medals of Honor would we really have awarded?

On this specific detail...I as a commander would be up in arms that the "awards committee" was questioning my honesty and judgement in such a callous way....not to mention the disservice it is to the individual who performed the action!

Sometimes CAP makes want to spit!

[RiverAux]

Although I don't think a lot of folks are lying about such actions, this is one of the reasons I believe CAP awards should be limited to actions taken during CAP activities.  Then there would be plenty of witnesses to any award-worthy action. 

[DBlair]

It seems that (regarding awards), some people often make it either next to impossible or overly easy to get approved. This is why we have people walking around who actually did amazing things and yet couldn't get it through a commander on some sort of approval power trip and yet others who have a stack of awards for doing almost nothing because a commander felt like giving things away. It is frustrating on both accounts.

[CS]

Really simple, documentation required.  Stopping at a traffic accident doesn't necessarily mean you saved a life.  Providing first aid doesn't necessarily mean you saved a life.  Yes CAP 'gives' away too many awards without justification and proper support.  Regarding an MOH recommendation, there [darn] well better be proper documentation otherwise it is just bling.

[RiverAux]

Even if the local folks don't WANT to provide a specific email about someone's participation, the police accident report should be a public record that should be available through whatever freedom of information process is required in your state.  That report would at least confirm the date, time, and location of the accident and some generalities regarding the nature of injuries sustained.  If someone was providing aid at the scene, there is a decent chance that it would be mentioned if for no other reason to absolve the cop of blame should some of the first aid given caused harm. 

[Flying Pig]

A person stopping to assist will not be in an accident report (usually).  A lot of people think they know what will go into a report.  You would be surprised at how much "information" the involved parties think need to go into a report.
Only witnesses and the involved parties.  TC reports are VERY matter of fact.
I have been to literally hundreds of traffic accidents and I don't think I have ever gotten the names of people who stopped to assist.  Not necessary for my report.
I have had people who stopped and were late for work who wanted their names in the report to prove to their boss why they were late.  I just gave them a business card and told them to have their boss call me.  Usually when LE and EMS arrive those good samaritans usually step back and disappear.
Contrary to popular belief, you usually cannot just walk into a police station and get a copy of any report you want. The report will probably not be given to you unless you are an involved party and you would have to pay for it and have a reason for needing it.  Curiosity is not a reason.

Not casting judgement, however, in my experience very few people actually "save" a life when they stop at an accident unless the victim was on fire or squirting blood from their femoral artery.  But the citation should detail those actions.

I have been the reporting officer for a Rotary Club member who stopped at a TC and did CPR on someone prior to my arrival.  Basically, my comment was "Yes, when I arrived, Mr. X was doing CPR.  EMS arrived and relieved him."

Have the initiator of the Cert of Lifesaving make an appointment with a Sergeant for the agency and explain what the issue is and that the person is a member of a volunteer organization and you are trying to present them an award for taking the initiative to make a difference.  You dont need to tell them its a Lifesaving.  Also, make sure you point out that this has nothing to do with the police department and that you are not looking for any recognition from them.  If its substantial enough, the agency may chose to also award something.  But the department also doesn't want people who look like they may be soliciting awards from them. 
You could even follow up that you are just trying to prove the member was there, and get any statements (if any) from the officer about if the member helped out.
They could get you in contact with the officer on scene or the EMS personnel who could at least verify the member was there, which, according to your post was the issue.  Beyond that, I would think the lifesaving efforts documented are coming from the members own word.  Most passerby's aren't actively involved in a rescue after or while the LE and EMS are on scene.

Keep in mind though, unless this was some MAJOR smasher, don't be surprised if the officer doesn't even remember it or remembers very little depending on the size of the agency and its service area.  TC reports are written to document what caused the accident and assign the party at fault.  What happens after the cars come to rest is not important. Thats the job of EMS.   Injuries will be documented which could support your members claim and add weight to it being "lifesaving".  Or, could show the occupants had no life threatening injuries also.
You may get some odd looks walking in and saying you are trying to award someone a medal for something LE and EMS may find very routine, especially if they don't recall the member even being there, which is highly possible. I used to take 4-5 T/C reports a day when I worked the street.  Usually 1 or 2 of those involved some gnarly injuries and there were usually several looky-loos and most samaritans, although good intentioned, were just in the way.  On duty I have climbed into turned over cars leaking fuel to stabilize occupants who were hanging upside down in their seat belts, retrieve dead bodies, a baby in an upside down car seat (alive fortunately) and once climbed in the back seat to cut a driver out of his seat belt in a burning car.  Both front seats AND the driver were actually on fire while my partner was nailing me with a Halon fire extinguisher and throwing handfull's of dirt on us to try and keep the flames down.  The firetruck literally arrived and sprayed us with water just as I was going to give up and evacuate.  Driver was pinned under the wheel and I couldnt get him out.  He later died I think.  I never followed up but I cant see how he lived.  He was roasted and smashed.
I got a slap on the back a "good job" and sent home to change my uniform and report back to finish my shift.

Keep in mind there is a 2 year deadline for CAP from the date of the incident to be put in for it.  I lost out on one because the CC never mailed it.  I found it in an old desk drawer about 3 yrs later. I had just assumed it got lost in the CAP abyss at Wing.   Out of curiosity, what did the member do to actually save the life?

[RiverAux]

Contrary to popular belief, you usually cannot just walk into a police station and get a copy of any report you want. The report will probably not be given to you unless you are an involved party and you would have to pay for it and have a reason for needing it.  Curiosity is not a reason.

That is going to vary by state, but I'd be willing to be money that in most places any curious party can get a copy of any such report.  May not be easy and may cost you some money, but you can probably get it.  Keep in mind that in many smaller towns they still print all the accident reports, including names of those involved.

[Flying Pig]

Yeah, probably true.  I think where the hard part comes in is proving the action was "Lifesaving" vs just first aid.  Not sure what the level is or who decides, but I would imagine a statement from a paramedic or the attending MD might be required. Seems like it should be a requirement for a medical professional to actually say "Yup, SM Jones' actions actually did save this persons life."
You dont want to be nit-picky and analyze every moment, but then again, it is the Certificate of Lifesaving.  Not the Certificate of I stopped and helped out.  I like to see the average Joe recognized for stopping and assisting.  Most people stand back and take photos with their I-Phones and post them to their Facebook page while the person is bleeding out.  Perhaps a Commanders Commendation should the Lifesaving be denied a second time?  Hard to say without knowing the details.

I think awards and getting them right are important.  I say that because I have seen people given promotions or assignments based on awards received.  Or denied because another less qualified person may have had a few awards in their file.  All the while everyone knows the guy who was passed over has just the same amount of guts and bravery if not more.  But all they had to go by was the record, not war stories.
People should be recognized for their actions.  Bragging?  No.  Recognized and set apart from their peers for their actions?  Yes.  I tell members if you do something, let me know.  Im not a psychic.  The awards are there for a reason. 

[SJFedor]

In my run reports (all computerized) I've got a little box to check if we were assisted by a bystander, off duty EMS (ALS or BLS), other medical personnel, etc etc. That's about the extent of the documentation I do as far as people helping on the scene, maybe a line or two stating what actions the "bystander" took prior to my arrival or arrival of a first responder (Fire/Police). That's it. If the person is a certified/licensed medical professional, like an off duty EMT or Medic, I'll usually get their cert numbers if they've done any interventions other than just keeping the person company til I get there.

[cap235629]

Contrary to popular belief, you usually cannot just walk into a police station and get a copy of any report you want. The report will probably not be given to you unless you are an involved party and you would have to pay for it and have a reason for needing it.  Curiosity is not a reason.

That is going to vary by state, but I'd be willing to be money that in most places any curious party can get a copy of any such report.  May not be easy and may cost you some money, but you can probably get it.  Keep in mind that in many smaller towns they still print all the accident reports, including names of those involved.

here in Arkansas, ANY government report, police, fire, city government, housing authority etc. is available for ANYONE willing to pay a "nominal" fee to cover the cost of copying.  The only exceptions are ongoing investigations, personnel actions still pending appeal processes and anything excluded under Federal law (HIPAA)

Curiosity is usually the major reason for asking.

IT'S CALLED OPEN GOVERNMENT!

[Flying Pig]

^whoa there wildman.....nothing about a conspiracy.

[cap235629]

^whoa there wildman.....nothing about a conspiracy.

LOL I had to remember that you are in Kalifornia!!!! LOL

[lordmonar]

My issue is still.....IF they are going to require proof....let's get those requirments in writing.  Do I need a police report?  Is an eyewitness good enough.  Do I have to get a letter from mommy?  Or what?

As I said before....we run the risk of making these awards useless because we make them too hard to get in an attempt to making sure we don't make them worthless by handing them out to easily.

[jimmydeanno]

I had a cadet just recently that saved his brother's life.  We asked his brother's doctor to write a letter explaining.  The doctor was more than happy to help recognize this cadet for a job well done.  The letter couldn't have been more perfect.  In the spot where it asked for an explanation, we just put "see attached" and attached the letter.

There's nothing quite like, "had John Doe not helped, his brother would not have survived" to make the process easy.

I'm sure that you could get a copy of the accident report and get the police officer or whomever witnessed to say what they did.

[Mustang]

For all this "nothing without bulletproof verification" stuff, you can thank HWSRN, Danny Levitch and Eileen Parker, who all put themselves in for SMVs for their "response" to a traffic accident that never happened.  Said SMVs were later revoked when the shenanigans were revealed for what they were.

[a2capt]

Policies are usually reactionary. What sucks the most is how it suddenly thrusts every submission into a state of suspect, rather than dealing with the incident as if it were a specific event.

People rob banks, yes. But 99.9999% of everyone that goes into a bank isn't going to rob it. But what if everyone had to prove themselves TSA style, that they were not going to rob it before walking in?

Has there been a rampant rash of fraudulent awards put in for?

This abuse, sadly, happened at the highest level, in many ways, the most vulnerable because they probably never figured on fraud happening at this level. Does that make everyone one else bad? It shouldn't, but it does.

[Flying Pig]

Unfortunately, the original poster hasn't come back. However, proving you were at the scene seems like a legitimate requirement.  What you did was so amazing you saved this mans life, but nobody recalls you being there?  I could see that needing to be cleared up.

[NIN]

About 16 years ago, my girlfriend (later wife & then ex-wife, as you can expect!<GRIN>) and I were eating dinner at home when she got a little overexuberant with the pita bread and started choking.  I hopped up, ran around the table and had to do the ol' Heimlich maneuver about 3 times before this chuck of pita bread popped out of her mouth onto the dining room table and she could breathe again.

After making sure she was OK, I said "[Darn], no witnesses, no lifesaving award!"

I think my marriage was really doomed at that point.

[heliodoc]

Good Story, NIN!!!

Unfortunately, some in CAP see lifesaving as a bling collection or soon to be bling / award..

Unfortunately, lifesaving can not be a quiet accomplishment and one can walk away in complete silence doing good service, to some.......

[lordmonar]

Unfortunately, the original poster hasn't come back. However, proving you were at the scene seems like a legitimate requirement.  What you did was so amazing you saved this mans life, but nobody recalls you being there?  I could see that needing to be cleared up.

On one level I agree with you.

But on another I think it is BS.

I have stopped to assist at several accidents scenes (some very bad, some not so) but in each case no one ever took down my name....and I sure was not going to go around asking the police and EMT "what's your name and badge number so I can do the award paperwork later".

Lets play some what if games.

One of my cadets helps out at an accident.

He is just being a good citizens....

He later tells me the story describing what happened, what he did and when and where it happened.
He was not trolling for an award...he was just relating an intresting thing that happened to him on the way to school one day.

I think it deserves a lifesaving award or BSV or SMV or the Congression Medal of Cranial-anal Inversion.  I write it up and submit it.  But the Awards Board wants proof.

There is no record.  Sure there may be a record that there was an injury accident at X location on or about X time.  That the victim was injured and transported to X hospital.

But as Flying Pig said...the cops are too busy doing their accident report, directing traffic, etc to note down each and every John & Jane Q. Public who was out there helping.

My point being.....this Wing Policy basically makes it nearly impossible to get this award.

It is an integrity issue.  That works on both levels.  If I doubt the integrity of my cadet....I may ask for some support or do a little checking up on my own.  So when the awards board kicks it back for lack of proof they are either questioning the interigty or competance of the submitter.  If proof is required they need to spell out what constitutes prooof so that the supporting documents can be included in the awards package.

[UWONGO2]

Sorry folks, I've been busy.

I didn't include a narrative of the incident itself because I didn't think that was relevant to the main point of discussion - how much "proof" should our chain of command require when awards are submitted. Since the hypothesis was given that it's unlikely life-saving care can be provided without the person appearing in a police/EMS report, I'll provide the details as I know them to see if that question can be answered.

The member from my squadron came upon an accident scene involving a vehicle upside and facing the wrong direction. Stopping to render aid, the member discovered a marginally conscious driver hanging upside from a seat belt. After checking for a fuel leak, the member climbed into the vehicle and provided support to the driver's c-spine, checked the lacerations for excessive bleeding, and woke the driver up. The driver's legs were pinned under the dash. The member had to convince three separate good samaritans against removing the driver from the vehicle. A good samaritan climbed into the front of the vehicle and assisted in keeping the driver awake and providing encouragement.

The first interaction with public safety personnel happened with a motorcycle officer appearing at the scene. The member provided a brief patient status report to the officer who provided a blank look and stammered, "I was just driving by. Fire should be here soon." The officer walked around to the other side of the car to chat with the assembled crowd. The interaction lasted about 15 seconds. The officer did apparently convince a persistent good samaritan that in fact no, the driver should not be removed from the car, so he was in fact helpful.

Later the fire department arrived and was clearly annoyed to find two people in the vehicle with the driver and ordered everyone out. The member exited and was ignored by fire personnel. The interaction with the fire officer lasted about 10 seconds.

According to the computer report that was obtained, the patient was extricated from the vehicle by the fire department and was transported in critical condition. 

Hopefully this adequately explains why the member doesn't have any proof of providing care and how unlikely it is to find someone who will recall the member being at the scene (minimal interaction with public safety, the patient was barely conscious). I spent eight years as a law enforcement volunteer, I never saw good samaritans get their names into police reports unless they were witnesses. The best my fellow member can do is to provide the names of the coworkers who talked him down from his adrenaline rush and helped pick glass out his hair and clothes.

The story about CAP members making up a crash to earn medals is certainly disheartening. It takes just only a few to screw it up for everyone else.

[Flying Pig]

The first interaction with public safety personnel happened with a motorcycle officer appearing at the scene. The member provided a brief patient status report to the officer who provided a blank look and stammered, "I was just driving by. Fire should be here soon." The officer walked around to the other side of the car to chat with the assembled crowd. The interaction lasted about 15 seconds. The officer did apparently convince a persistent good samaritan that in fact no, the driver should not be removed from the car, so he was in fact helpful.

Well, its good the officer was helpful   We are also trained to stand and continually adjust the volume on our radios to make it look like we are doing something productive and defer any comment to when the fire pigs show up. 

Yeah, hard to say.  So I guess the issue now is #1, how do we prove he was there?  Maybe ask the motor officer who stopped by?  It could be as simple as sending him an email at work and asking him to call you.  Most PDs its easy to get.  My email is on my business card so its not  a secret. it will usually be their name@cityofyadayada or something.  Call and ask for it.   Also most officers have department voice mail.

#2, determining if again, the action was in fact "lifesaving"

In the end, I would perhaps go for a Commanders Commendation or Achievement Medal if it ultimately gets denied.

PM Sent