Amateur radio support to CAP missions?

[wuzafuzz]

Now that the use of hams to pass traffic on our behalf has been blessed or clarified in draft form, I'm curious about scenarios were we might effectively use them. 

See Draft 100-1 Section 11-2(c).
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R100_001_draft_438DDE60D3640.pdf

I am not suggesting we offload our internal capabilities.  Amateur radio operators might be able to fill in the gaps or provide some capabilities we don't have.  As much as I'd like to think we can do it all ourselves, I've seen enough missions and exercises to know that's not always the case.

Thoughts?  Strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats?

[JoeTomasone]

More tools in the toolbag = good.

Just leveraging Winlink is a significant force multiplier all by itself.    Add in the Amateur ability to use whatever HF band suits the task and their sheer number of repeaters, and there are lots of scenarios in which they might assist.

The sole issue I have (and have commented through channels on) is that having a restriction against using Amateur Radio while signed in to the mission is a mistake -- we should be allowed to introduce that traffic into the system.  I can foresee CAP Hams "staying home" from the mission just in case they are needed to pass CAP traffic via ham radio.

Of course, it probably need not be said, but CAP is the only organization that so encumbers its members.

[arajca]

CAP traffic is not permitted to be passed via ham radio.

The issue I have with the flat out prohibition is liaison communications. With the slashing of CAP radio numbers, what do we use if an incident base (the doo-do hit the fan type incidnet) is using ham radios for long-haul comms? How do we communicate with the base?

[JoeTomasone]

CAP traffic is not permitted to be passed via ham radio.

In the Draft 100-1, Amateur Radio may be used to pass CAP traffic as their standard 3rd party traffic.  The restriction is that CAP members acting as CAP members (in uniform, signed in to the mission) may not originate/receive the communication on Amateur frequencies -- requiring either a CAP member/Ham who is not signed in, or some other method (telephone, in person contact, etc).

[wuzafuzz]

CAP traffic is not permitted to be passed via ham radio.

In the Draft 100-1, Amateur Radio may be used to pass CAP traffic as their standard 3rd party traffic.  The restriction is that CAP members acting as CAP members (in uniform, signed in to the mission) may not originate/receive the communication on Amateur frequencies -- requiring either a CAP member/Ham who is not signed in, or some other method (telephone, in person contact, etc).

If some hams come and co-locate in or near our comm room, we could simply pass them a message form, or provide some files on a USB thumb drive to transmit.  As long as they can talk ICS we should be able to use them in that manner shouldn't we?

With our focus on VHF I like arajca's thought about using hams for long haul comms.  Might be kind of handy when phones don't work.  Been there done that on recent missions.

The forced separation for CAP members who are also hams seems annoying, but the way the rules are explained it does seem to make some sense. 

[JoeTomasone]

If some hams come and co-locate in or near our comm room

Indeed.   "If".   

[wuzafuzz]

If some hams come and co-locate in or near our comm room

Indeed.   "If".   

If they don't want to do that, then it's a non-starter.  I suspect some hams would be perfectly willing to help in that way.  Then again, many emcomm group are already affiliated with local governments or hospitals.  They might not have the capacity to add another customer.  YMMV.

[isuhawkeye]

mabye when cap goes in to help an EMA the HAMS will already be there

[Eclipse]

With the slashing of CAP radio numbers..

[JoeTomasone]

If some hams come and co-locate in or near our comm room

Indeed.   "If".   

If they don't want to do that, then it's a non-starter.  I suspect some hams would be perfectly willing to help in that way.  Then again, many emcomm group are already affiliated with local governments or hospitals.  They might not have the capacity to add another customer.  YMMV.

I should have been clearer -- the question is not if they will be willing to assist; as a ham myself I can assure you that they will.  My contention is that they won't always be where we are when we need them just because they might not have been asked to provide comms to the same location.   I can see co-location at an EOC, for example, but less so at a CAP Mission Base (at an airport, for example..).

[arajca]

With our focus on VHF I like arajca's thought about using hams for long haul comms.  Might be kind of handy when phones don't work.  Been there done that on recent missions.

Using hams for CAP long haul comms is NOT a suggestion. CAP has it's own hf system, although it does need more emphasis. These internet and email thing-a-ma-bobs have replaced it for routine communications. CAP should be using CAP hf for long haul comms.

[Dirtman]

mabye when cap goes in to help an EMA the HAMS will already be there

ARES/RACES face the same ICS training probelms that CAP faces in order to serve its customers.  Many Hams who have been members of ARES organizations have not taken any of the ICS modules.  In our local ARES group, which is to serve our local hospital, I and one other member are the only ones who have completed ARRL ARECC Level III, or any ARECC Level for that matter, and the ICS 100,200,700,800.  Even the EC hasn't taken any of them.  So if the balloon goes up, their will be only two of us there if both of us are not doing something else like CAP or other activities we are involved with. 

On CAP HF, the system is broken beyond belief.  Most operators cant do anything but check into the nightly net, cant operate on the secondary or other region channels, heck most cant change the channel to or know the alternate channel for the wing or region!  There is no traffic handling, no message passing and no drills.  NO training.  All training is done VHF because thats were the people are at, GT, UDF, Vans, Repeaters etc.  Plus HF has not been used other than for show to the evaluators on any mission I have been on in the last 10 years.  As an MRO, it bothers me greatly to see the "mission base" or the comm shack/vehicle set up with a HF just for show.

[wuzafuzz]

With our focus on VHF I like arajca's thought about using hams for long haul comms.  Might be kind of handy when phones don't work.  Been there done that on recent missions.

Using hams for CAP long haul comms is NOT a suggestion. CAP has it's own hf system, although it does need more emphasis. These internet and email thing-a-ma-bobs have replaced it for routine communications. CAP should be using CAP hf for long haul comms.

Terribly sorry, I misread your post.  Didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

Having said that, HF in CAP barely exists.  There is no attention to it that I have seen.  Not in my squadron, not from my group, nor from my wing.  Hopefully I've missed something along the way.  I am interested in learning more about the HF side and applying that knowledge; that was part of the reason I joined CAP.

[arajca]

Having said that, HF in CAP barely exists.  There is no attention to it that I have seen.  Not in my squadron, not from my group, nor from my wing.  Hopefully I've missed something along the way.  I am interested in learning more about the HF side and applying that knowledge; that was part of the reason I joined CAP.

No arguments there. Supposedly, there are plans to increase hf training in the new comm training plan (that is five months behind schedule, with no implementation in sight!). I'm trying to figure out how to do an exercise (albit, a simple one) using both hf and vhf, without using phones/email, including at least one formal message.

[♠SARKID♠]

Having said that, HF in CAP barely exists.  There is no attention to it that I have seen.  Not in my squadron, not from my group, nor from my wing.  Hopefully I've missed something along the way.  I am interested in learning more about the HF side and applying that knowledge; that was part of the reason I joined CAP.

As it stands I teach HF far more than I do VHF.  You learn so much more about communications that way.  Using VHF is often so easy that its like talking on the phone, and the technical stuff is just taken for granted.  But with HF, the situation is rarely if ever ideal so you have to know what you're doing so you can take steps to rectify it (be it switch antennas, frequency, etc).

That said, if CAP members had the motivation to actually learn a bit about HF, the topic of hams wouldn't be on the table.  Theres nothing a Ham can do that CAP can't on its own frequencies.

[JoeTomasone]

That said, if CAP members had the motivation to actually learn a bit about HF, the topic of hams wouldn't be on the table.  Theres nothing a Ham can do that CAP can't on its own frequencies.

Ahh, negative, Cadet.   We can't do digital modes, and there's a ton that hams can do in that regard that we cannot as CAP.   Winlink (http://www.winlink.org) is just the tip of that iceberg, along with AMTOR, packet, RTTY, etc, etc, ad nauseum.   We cannot switch bands to adjust to changing conditions (OK, we can go from one band to the other, but that's it -- and we have nothing like 20m).    We cannot phone patch, nor can we we do CW.    We are stuck with USB -- no LSB or AM operation.  We cannot move throughout a band to avoid interference with other communications since we are effectively channelized by Region.   

No, our radio communications options are vastly inferior to ham communications -- by our own design (aka CAPR 100-1).

[isuhawkeye]

PSK-31 and other digital HF modes are widely considered the future of long distance emergency communications

[Eclipse]

The math on this is easy.

What is the effective range of VHF? (including use of repeaters and high birds)

What is the range of HF?

What is the scope of the majority of CAP's largest missions?

When you're done carrying the 4, you'll see why HF is a non-starter in CAP.

Hint: Comms are for ES.  Period.  We aren't the dial tone of the US during Armageddon anymore (if we ever were).  CAP mission bases rarely if ever control assets outside VHF range, and rarer still do telephones not work.   Since we don't have HF in the COV's and aircraft, its not much use to the field assets, ergo...

[JoeTomasone]

Hint: Comms are for ES.  Period.  We aren't the dial tone of the US during Armageddon anymore (if we ever were).  CAP mission bases rarely if ever control assets outside VHF range, and rarer still do telephones not work.   Since we don't have HF in the COV's and aircraft, its not much use to the field assets, ergo...

When Florida gets whacked with our next hurricane and the Wing Commander needs to communicate with Region HQ, VHF won't cut it.    Likewise Wing to Group comms in the vast majority of cases.

HF is needed, but VHF is crucial.

[Eclipse]

Hint: Comms are for ES.  Period.  We aren't the dial tone of the US during Armageddon anymore (if we ever were).  CAP mission bases rarely if ever control assets outside VHF range, and rarer still do telephones not work.   Since we don't have HF in the COV's and aircraft, its not much use to the field assets, ergo...

When Florida gets whacked with our next hurricane and the Wing Commander needs to communicate with Region HQ, VHF won't cut it.    Likewise Wing to Group comms in the vast majority of cases.

HF is needed, but VHF is crucial.

Not being from a place Mother Nature erases several times a year I can't disagree, but in my parts thats not a necessity - the HF equipment isn't even in a place that's accessible, and Wing doesn't have any HF capability.

If its not an ES response, whatever Wing needs can wait until the cel towers are back up.

[RiverAux]

When Florida gets whacked with our next hurricane and the Wing Commander needs to communicate with Region HQ, VHF won't cut it.    Likewise Wing to Group comms in the vast majority of cases.

Has HF been a critical component in reacting to recent hurricanes in Florida? 

[CAP.is.1337]

Here's something I like! All those VX-150's and old Motorolas still have a use for us!

9-15. Limited Support for Amateur Radio Training.
In CAP units making use of Amateur Radio as a unit training activity, corporate radio equipment which is no longer NTIA compliant, and therefore is no longer authorized for operational missions, may be used on amateur frequencies, with advance permission from National Headquarters requested via wing and region headquarters. Equipment used for this purpose shall have all CAP frequencies and/or frequency determining elements removed. At no time shall Amateur Radio frequencies be used in conduct of Civil Air Patrol business or missions, IAW para 11-2.

Anyway, here's the main section in question:

11-2. Use of Amateur Radio Service by CAP. CAP members acting in any CAP capacity may not use amateur radio frequencies on behalf of CAP.

a. When the Civil Air Patrol conducts operational missions for the Air Force, it functions as an "instrumentality of the United States", IAW CAPR 20-1, para 4. Because CAP uses federal frequencies managed by the NTIA and assigned to the Air Force, CAP is defined as a federal frequency user, regardless of the "customer." Under federal law and regulation, instrumentalities of the United States and federal frequency users are prohibited from encroaching on civilian frequencies regulated by the Federal Communications Commission, including amateur radio frequencies.

b. FCC rules prohibit conducting the business of any organization on amateur radio frequencies for pecuniary (financial) interest. Because CAP members receive Federal Tort Claims Act (FTCA) insurance and Federal Employee Compensation Act (FECA) insurance, CAP members have pecuniary interest while signed in to Air Force tasked missions and have the status of a federal employee.

c. Where amateur radio "third party" traffic is needed to support a CAP mission, CAP communication managers may seek the support of local amateur radio clubs and organizations. CAP members who are licensed amateur radio operators and who are not acting in any CAP capacity (e.g. not signed into a mission) are not prohibited from exercising their amateur privileges and supporting affiliated amateur organizations using privately owned amateur equipment.

d. Amateur radio frequencies shall not be programmed into corporate radios, including those purchased with local assets, except as provided in para 9-15.

I must admit I am new to both CAP Comms and Ham radio, but I think this is a very good step in the right direction.

[JoeTomasone]

Here's something I like! All those VX-150's and old Motorolas still have a use for us!

9-15. Limited Support for Amateur Radio Training.
In CAP units making use of Amateur Radio as a unit training activity, corporate radio equipment which is no longer NTIA compliant, and therefore is no longer authorized for operational missions, may be used on amateur frequencies, with advance permission from National Headquarters requested via wing and region headquarters. Equipment used for this purpose shall have all CAP frequencies and/or frequency determining elements removed. At no time shall Amateur Radio frequencies be used in conduct of Civil Air Patrol business or missions, IAW para 11-2.

Just remember (and I have passed this up through channels as well) -- this section neglects to tell you that you need an Amateur Radio license to transmit on Amateur frequencies.    I am concerned that some members won't realize that when they read this section if it's left as-is.

[BillB]

During the 1950's a Florida Wing Director of Communications made an HF radio for base or mobile use. He sold several hundred. These were 2-3 channel AM transcievers that in todays dollars would have sold for $300 plus power supply. On one mission in Florida and Georgia, I was able to keep in contact via HF with both Florida Wing and Georgia Wing control stations.
But in 2009, the HF capability is no longer there. The radios are to expensive for the average member to purchase, Ham radios don't meet specifications, and High bird and VHF repeaters have basically replaced HF. But that being said there is still a place for HF radios in CAP. But overall, hams have more flexibility in bands available, types of emissions and fairly low prices for equipment. CAP used to have the capability for RTTY and one squadron I was a member of, had an RTTY setup that they picked up from an USAF base at no cost. Wing also had an RTTY setup as well as several other Squadrons. So over the years CAP has dropped some of the capabilities for HF operations, and maybe hams can fill that void.

[Dirtman]

Hint: Comms are for ES.  Period. 

No, there for Mission Support.  Comms are for support of the mission, not just ES, what ever that Mission might be, ES, Encampments, O Flights, Parades, Field Training, Model Rocket Launch, etc.  And support of that Mission, as in ES, might be outside of the Mission area where VHF, Cell Phones and land lines don't work or work well. 

You sir are fortunate to live where ever it is that you live that Cell Phone, Land Line and Repeaters exist.  Where I live, those things are not always a given, CAP or Civilian.  And an HF cloud burner may be the only way to talk to the next town or get any info when the lights go off for days. 

[Eclipse]

Hint: Comms are for ES.  Period. 

No, there for Mission Support.  Comms are for support of the mission, not just ES, what ever that Mission might be, ES, Encampments, O Flights, Parades, Field Training, Model Rocket Launch, etc.  And support of that Mission, as in ES, might be outside of the Mission area where VHF, Cell Phones and land lines don't work or work well. 

I understand and support the sentiment, but the in actual practice that is incorrect.

We get radios and airplanes because of ES.

The ability of these assets to perform and support other missions is extra, line-item justification for the toys, but not the underlying reason they are paid for by Uncle Sam.

You sir are fortunate to live where ever it is that you live that Cell Phone, Land Line and Repeaters exist.  Where I live, those things are not always a given, CAP or Civilian.  And an HF cloud burner may be the only way to talk to the next town or get any info when the lights go off for days. 

On that point I'll have to defer, as in Florida.  If you need it, have it, and can make it work, good on 'ye.

But when you start talking about whether HF is important in a CAP context that's a different story, especially in urbanized areas with large populations and professional ES.

What do I, as a CAP Commander, ES asset, or Joe Rankinfile, need to talk to the next town for?  If I'm deploying for DR, then I'm locked inside that universe, and while it might be nice to talk to someone outside VHF, there's not much they can do for me.

And if I'm not deploying for DR, then my uniform is in the closet and I'm more worried about the zombie hordes than whether I can still get a Mitchell approved from Region via HF.

Everybody has a hobby, and if you like to spend your money doing atmospheric skip to try and QSL some guy in Coinslotiskan, cool, but to insinuate it has much use in CAP is another matter.

I used to work for a mid-sized municipality, and during '99 we were doing our Armageddon planning for Y2K like everyone else.  The EMA coordinator was vocal and insistent in every meeting that we spend several thousand dollars on an HF antenna up on the city's main ES tower.

When pressed for why this was critical, he said that "If things really go to hell, it'll be important to be able to contact people outside the town for help, and the phones won't be working."

Mayor:     "Who are we going to call for help?"

EMA Guy:     "Australia, for example, is very prepared for the coming crisis..."

About a week later the Fire Chief was slotted on the org chart as the EMA director.   

[wuzafuzz]

Even leaving HF out of the conversation for a moment, hams can still do plenty on VHF that we can't.  Try running D-STAR on CAP freqs.  Not allowed.  That might be handy when you can't get an Internet connection or setup a LAN.

There are other things under the sun that can be useful to us, even when our cell phones and CAP VHF (voice) systems are working just fine.  

Personally I don't care how my comms are transmitted, I just want them to get through.  HF, VHF, ham, or smoke signals.  

[Dirtman]

We get radios and airplanes because of ES.

I agree, and that is sad.  Sad that we have become a one "mission" organization.  So much for the other two missions.

Personally I don't care how my comms are transmitted, I just want them to get through.  HF, VHF, ham, or smoke signals. 

Agreed.  And the problem is that for the most part, "here", based on my years in the program, they don't get through when they have to.  And Hams are not the answer, training our own is the answer.  The question is when will that happen?

[Dirtman]

Mayor:     "Who are we going to call for help?"

EMA Guy:     "Australia, for example, is very prepared for the coming crisis..."

About a week later the Fire Chief was slotted on the org chart as the EMA director.

Funny!  And needs to happen more often in towns/cities across the nation.  Needs to happen in our town here.  But when your related to the political big wig, then you get to keep your job no matter how useless you are!

And I don't think CAP has much need for the "hobby" as you say.  That is not what I was trying to say.  What I was trying to say was that there are times when VHF and cell phone don't cut it.  Then what do we do?  We use an asset that we don't know how to use or do nothing? 

[Eclipse]

And I don't think CAP has much need for the "hobby" as you say.  That is not what I was trying to say.  What I was trying to say was that there are times when VHF and cell phone don't cut it.  Then what do we do?  We use an asset that we don't know how to use or do nothing?

Do nothing is the plan today, apparently, and until CAP's mission requires longer-range comms, that's likely how it will stay.

We have to look at it from the practical standpoint of the mission and what other tech exists to fill the need.

HF, for whatever reason, still seems to require more than "turn-key" operation, which means that the gear is generally in the home of some member interested in babysitting it - not much use in a mission.

We recently did a comm exercise where we put up highbirds across the whole state to pass mission traffic - it worked great, and were were able to put up a chain just about point to point across all 400ish miles. That is much more likely a scenario we'd use than trying to mess with HF.

I can tell you from personal experience that, at least in Mississippi, the cel phones worked all the way to the Gulf Coast within a week of the hurricane, and the majority of Comms back to Jackson and the bases was VHF via either airborne repeater or high-bird relay.

Cellular data circuits and SMS worked pretty good as well, depending on your carrier.

We also had SAT phones, though admittedly the birds were saturated and coverage was spotty.

They dinked around with HF at Stennis for at least a week before it worked at all, and even then was not reliable.

[wuzafuzz]

So what can hams do for us?  Anything?  

The question doesn't have to be HF vs VHF, but whether there are people out there with skills and capabilities we can make use of.  Can they do things for us we can't do ourselves because of regulations? (Training won't change that.)  Can they do a few things we don't want to spend our money on?

We don't have to talk to Mars, or even Australia, but I am having a hard time accepting the concept that we would never want, need, or even benefit from a little help.

[Eclipse]

So what can hams do for us?  Anything? 

Very little, if anything, within the current plan.

OPSEC, Frequency restrictions, and other limitations keep CAP members and traffic on our radios and HAMS on theirs.

[Major Lord]

Well, there is nothing that I see that prohibits us from Monitoring the ARS bands, or from their Monitoring us ( although the hams would have to look up our "secret" frequencies on the Internet!) we just can't transmit on each other's frequencies. (unless its really important) I think we have enough Hams in CAP to know how to set up an HF antenna without having to go to hams for outside support, so it seems moot. Just sucker, er, recruit more hams into CAP to support Comm's. Of course, I am biased ( I manufacture APRS tracking transmitters for the ARS) but it woud be nice to be able to take advantage of the prety much world-wide network of APRS digipeaters and internet back-boned repeaters the Ham world has, such is life....

Major Lord
KG6HXO
GROL + RADAR

[JoeTomasone]

But when you start talking about whether HF is important in a CAP context that's a different story, especially in urbanized areas with large populations and professional ES.

What do I, as a CAP Commander, ES asset, or Joe Rankinfile, need to talk to the next town for?  If I'm deploying for DR, then I'm locked inside that universe, and while it might be nice to talk to someone outside VHF, there's not much they can do for me.

OK, so step into my shoes for a moment.   You're the Comms Officer for a Group that includes a reasonable-sized city (Tampa, FL).    Major Hurricane Tony comes calling, and you find yourself:

1. With no power (and let's make that for a week).

2. No landline or cell capability.

3. No repeater (antenna is damaged; site has no power).

4. No Internet.


How will you communicate with Wing to request assistance (say, a highbird)?   HF is how.  You'll use/make a dipole for SA, get it in a tree, and report your status and call for assets as needed.

[JoeTomasone]

And Hams are not the answer, training our own is the answer.  The question is when will that happen?

Training doesn't address the fact that the "Official" training (i.e. BCUT/ACUT) produces what a ham would call a "minimal appliance operator" who is completely unprepared to do anything but operate a perfectly working radio setup.   Introduce a power failure, antenna damage, or even a blown fuse, and it's pretty much all over.   Couple this with the fact that 99% of BCUT/ACUT holders use a radio perhaps once per year, and even that knowledge gets stale and forgotten quickly.

Most hams won't join once they find out that they both cannot use their radios and won't be issued one anytime soon -- if ever -- given the USAF Table of Allowances (gonna take a while to get that GTL, my new SM friend!).   Many of the hams that we have left are aghast at the decimation of our comms capability inherent in CAP's strict adherence to NTIA specs (we are the only organization doing so, btw) and in its reluctance to approve any radio under $1000.00.    NTC's stated direction is to move to a Corporate-owned comm network; that casts aside probably 2/3 of the comm capacity we once had.

I was recruited back into CAP as a Senior Member 10 years ago by the then NY Wing Commander to help give comms a shot in the arm, drawing on my Ham emergency communications experience.   You'd never get me to do it today. 

[Eclipse]

But when you start talking about whether HF is important in a CAP context that's a different story, especially in urbanized areas with large populations and professional ES.

What do I, as a CAP Commander, ES asset, or Joe Rankinfile, need to talk to the next town for?  If I'm deploying for DR, then I'm locked inside that universe, and while it might be nice to talk to someone outside VHF, there's not much they can do for me.

OK, so step into my shoes for a moment.   You're the Comms Officer for a Group that includes a reasonable-sized city (Tampa, FL).    Major Hurricane Tony comes calling, and you find yourself:

1. With no power (and let's make that for a week).

2. No landline or cell capability.

3. No repeater (antenna is damaged; site has no power).

4. No Internet.


How will you communicate with Wing to request assistance (say, a highbird)?   HF is how.  You'll use/make a dipole for SA, get it in a tree, and report your status and call for assets as needed.

Without power?

What are you requesting assistance for?

[wuzafuzz]

But when you start talking about whether HF is important in a CAP context that's a different story, especially in urbanized areas with large populations and professional ES.

What do I, as a CAP Commander, ES asset, or Joe Rankinfile, need to talk to the next town for?  If I'm deploying for DR, then I'm locked inside that universe, and while it might be nice to talk to someone outside VHF, there's not much they can do for me.

OK, so step into my shoes for a moment.   You're the Comms Officer for a Group that includes a reasonable-sized city (Tampa, FL).    Major Hurricane Tony comes calling, and you find yourself:

1. With no power (and let's make that for a week).

2. No landline or cell capability.

3. No repeater (antenna is damaged; site has no power).

4. No Internet.


How will you communicate with Wing to request assistance (say, a highbird)?   HF is how.  You'll use/make a dipole for SA, get it in a tree, and report your status and call for assets as needed.

Without power?

What are you requesting assistance for?

Amazing what you can do with generators or batteries.

I believe the gentleman mentioned requesting a highbird.  Participation in disaster relief being the likely reason.  That's not a stretch in the least.

[Eclipse]

You're missing my point - I'm being semi-factitious to push buttons, but I'm also honestly curious about what sort of plans or resources SER can turn on areas during a disaster.

Obviously anyone depending on HF is going to have a generator, batteries, or some other alternative power source.

Round my parts, once my family was safe, etc., I'd start trying to contact my Unit CC's, and see about connecting with wing regarding deploying somewhere for missions, but I have no expectation they are prepared to send help the other way, unless the AO happens to be in my neighborhood.

Absent missions, I'm going back home to try and find the cure while and checking out DVD's I haven't seen.

[JoeTomasone]

Without power?
What are you requesting assistance for?

<ES Hat>
Personnel to assist in the ground DR mission since our local members are overwhelmed; aerial recon for damage assessment; comms in the State EOC for our RECON ground teams; UDF teams to silence entire airports, etc.
</ES Hat>

<Ops Hat>
Relief aircrews, possibly parts/supplies, etc.
</Ops Hat>

<Comms Hat>
I'm not requesting anything; the Commander is.   
</Comms Hat>

[JoeTomasone]

see about connecting with wing regarding deploying somewhere for missions

And that's where you'd need HF.   Wing HQ is 200 air miles from Tampa, and 600 air miles from Pensacola.   For that matter, our Wing Commander would be cut off from the majority of his staff without HF if it were Katrina-like.

[wuzafuzz]

There have been a few ideas tossed around in this thread, but for the most part it has turned into a contest on two issues:

• HF vs VHF
• We don't want or need help from hams

If the revised 100-1 retains the provision for using amateur radio operators found in the draft version, I will pursue the matter  within my group and wing.  If allowed I will make contacts with amateur radio groups to see if we can establish a beneficial relationship.

I'll let you all know how it works out.

[Dirtman]

wuzafuzz

I say go for it.  Heck, it cant hurt anything, make your unit more prepared and perhaps teach your members something new and recruit new members.  Please keep us posted.  75% of the seniors in my unit are Hams.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out. 

One question I still have though:  Has/will the MOU between CAP and ARRL been updated to reflect this proposed change?

[JoeTomasone]

One question I still have though:  Has/will the MOU between CAP and ARRL been updated to reflect this proposed change?

You don't change an active document to reflect what may become an active document. 

And nothing in either world is that fast.

[Dirtman]

yes Joe, I know that you don't change an active document.  Note the Has/will in the question.  More on the will than the has. 

I also wonder if the ARRL was consulted on this, of if they even know about it.

Again, I say go for it.......................................

[Dirtman]

Had a free minute to read the proposed changes, not just glance at them...........

11-2., With specific regard to item (b), that's an unsupported claim.  Red Cross, Salvation Army, Baptist Relief, RACES organizations - all are covered by various forms of insurance and/or workmen's comp.  That does not constitute a 'pecuniary interest' such that the FCC finds that it would or should prohibit those folks from use of amateur radio communications during disaster relief operations (i.e., in a 'real' emergency).  The FCC was asked to rule on such cases ("Cardillo-Lee" petition) and determined that there was no need for a ruling, since the case was already covered by existing rules.  Refer to http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/1999/12/02/3/   wherein it is stated, towit:

"In denying the Cardillo-Lee petition, the FCC basically said a change in the rules was not required, in part because of amendments it made in 1993 regarding prohibited transmissions. The FCC said the requested clarification was unnecessary "because these two-way communications are permitted within the existing rules." The FCC said hams who also are emergency personnel engaged in disaster relief "do not appear to be receiving compensation for transmitting communications." The FCC said it views the Amateur Radio operation in such situations as incidental to the individual's primary disaster-relief duties." (emphasis added)