Amber Emergency Lights

[cap235629]

It's shouldn't go unsaid that NFPA law requires ANSI class II vests for anyone operating outside of a vehicle w/ emergency lights on.  With the exception of those actively fighting fires.

NFPA law??

[SarDragon]

I have had a number of occasions where I have needed to leave my vehicle at night to DF ELTs. Here in CA, the high places are not accompanied by straight roads, making flashing lights over and above the vehicle's flashers pretty much a necessity. The folks around here use something like this:



And, as noted by Pylon, it's a necessity for on airport operations.

I'd put an arrow stick in my 'Burb, but don't want to mess with the headliner. It's a real PITA.

[IceNine]

It's shouldn't go unsaid that NFPA law requires ANSI class II vests for anyone operating outside of a vehicle w/ emergency lights on.  With the exception of those actively fighting fires.

NFPA law??

That's what you have to offer to this discussion?

NFPA publishes codes and standards not laws.  Most of the NFPA codes and standards are written into law verbatim.

[davidsinn]

But why?

What are the odds of stumbling upon an airplane crash, or being the first person on scene of a missing person?

Your chances of being involved in or seeing an airplane crash are about 1:11,000,000

Chances of stumbling upon a vehicle crash 1:5,000.

Like I said above, your chances of using these lights to the letter and intent of the law is about once in a lifetime.  Anyone who wants lights to be "cooler than a tow truck" is textbook whacker.

There is no such thing as too much visibility. Cops get killed all the time alongside the road even with their lights on.  Your car is what, 5.5'-6.5' wide with just two little flashers? The farm equipment I am around all the time is 12'+ and is lighted like a freaking Christmas tree and people morons still manage to hit it from time to time. I love it when people throw out odds. Yes the odds are against getting hurt but how many times does it take for you to be the injured one for it to matter?

[IceNine]

Ok, lets talk about THIS discussion. 

A cadet wants to put lights on his car to be

I want to be a little bit cooler than your average towtruck.

IF your vehicle is used for UDF AND your locality authorizes their use a couple of flashing strobes in place of the emergency flashers could be considered appropriate.  Certainly a single strobe on top is also appropriate.

Emergency lights are most effective when they are bright and flashing.  An alternating flash pattern of yellow lights where one is always visible is the safest non-whacker configuration.

I honestly don't care how many lights it takes you to be "cool" or "safe".  And I wouldn't contend that there is no need for visibility.  I would however never allow or even encourage that any cadets have emergency vehicle lights. 

On my Fire Department unless you have been active for at least a year you can't even have them in your car, and to have them legally in the state you must have chief approval.  This eliminates the desire to spend way to much money, and drive fast because you have lights.  There is an increased responsibility that comes along with the ability to have lights in your vehicle.  This takes maturity and a level of experience to control the adrenaline.

And to address the reason for this post the any member that wants lights should be asking themselves WHY do you NEED lights?  How many times have you been in a situation in a CAP capacity that you NEEDED lights? How many times were you in your POV?  How many missions a year are you on in your POV? 

If the answer is anything other than a true well thought out "safety" then you don't need them.

It's much more fiscally sound to buy one strobe that can be placed in your go bag and used in any vehicle your in.

[Eclipse]

I didn't catch that this was a cadet.

Under no circumstances should a cadet be installing lights on mom's station wagon their cars under the auspices of CAP.

For starters, cadets would rarely be driving their POV's on missions, and can't drive COV's.

Nearly all wings require the Wing CC to approve emergency lights on POVs, and few would approve it for cadets
(let's all run at the screen now with a hearty, mature, "you can't tell me what to do with my car...")

[lordmonar]

Gee Eclipse......opinionated?

Full of assumptions too.

Cadets come in all ages....some of them OWN THEIR OWN CARS!

Wing can't tell me buckus about what I put on my POV.....they can only approve or disapprove the use of my POV on an ES mission.

As for the idea of having amber strobes......well if they are going to require us to wear ANIS vests....then strobes make a lot of sense.

Just because it is "COOL" looking does not make it a bad idea.

[Eclipse]

Gee Eclipse......opinionated?

duh

Wing can't tell me buckus about what I put on my POV.....they can only approve or disapprove the use of my POV on an ES mission.

(let's all run at the screen now with a hearty, mature, "you can't tell me what to do with my car...")

Congrats on winning the race.

For the record, CAP can does have some power over your POV.  You can't affix CAP insignia without Wing CC approval, as you
say, you can't even use your POV for missions without the same approval, and you can't use emergency lights without CAP approval.
(on CAP time).

As for the idea of having amber strobes......well if they are going to require us to wear ANIS vests....then strobes make a lot of sense.

You won't get a ticket for having an ANSI vest.

Just because it is "COOL" looking does not make it a bad idea.

If you have a mandate within your profession, fine, spend the money on spinners with strobes on them, whatever.
If your reasoning is "Man I dig police cars, and they sure have cool lights...How can I do I do some mental gymnastics and
stretch the sliver of a possibility that some day I will be somewhere that having strobes on my car would be so cool...er..."important"
that I need to go and drop a month's salary on them..." You're a whacker.

Here's another test.

Those who work for an agency or department where the agency or department deems having emergency lights on your vehicle
is important either provide / install them for you, provide detailed instructions as to what and where to buy them, or at the least provide within the regulations what is required.

The single biggest issue here is not the lights, it is the attitude, and for every one of us who would go to Autozone and buy the $40 LED turn signal / reverse light strobes and only turn them on during missions, there is at least one goof who will be using them every time it rains, or when "helping a motorist on the side of the road".

And who do those goofs encounter regularly?  FD's and LEA's exactly the people with whom we already have limited credibility.

Are you a volunteer fireman, donut salesman, or meter reader?  Fine, then you already have authorization and shouldn't look to CAP as another excuse for burning DC amps, otherwise, 99.9999999% of members have no use for emergency strobes, and even those who actually have a random legit need, won't use them more than once or twice a year.

[cap235629]

Nearly all wings require the Wing CC to approve emergency lights on POVs,

Yeah right, MY CAR I can do anything I want. He can tell me to park for a mission but that is as far as it goes.

[Eclipse]

There's also nothing that makes a CUL happier than to hear the capacitor charging of an incorrectly installed strobe light being broadcast over an incorrectly installed CAP radio.

They also cause interference on L-Pers.

[cap235629]

Again it may be a ticketable offense to have amber lights on your car in ILLINOIS but that is not the case everywhere.

[Eclipse]

Again it may be a ticketable offense to have amber lights on your car in ILLINOIS but that is not the case everywhere.

It is a ticket-able offense in all jurisdiction if the officer deems you are using them improperly.

Even I won't engage in a silly argument about simply possessing the lights themselves.

[Major Lord]

*Disclaimer...please read the entire topic before flaming me...thank you. I am going to be moving to a state that does allow Emergency Management Agencies to have amber warning lights on vehicles. I am not and will not debate the legality of doing so. I would like to know if any other captalk member had a good experience with any particular brand/type (hide-away/deck/lightbar etc). I have asked all my LEO buddies but they all use top of the line state-of-the-art equipment, i.e expensive and unnecessary.

I was so impressed with your initial post, and how you would not be sucked into a devolving thread and involve endless and pointless commentary from arguably some of the most dysfunctional people in CAP. Its too bad that you broke radio silence and invited vampires into your house. Its only a matter of time now until it turns into a uniform argument. Darn...

Major Lord

[Eclipse]

Lord, you know that isn't how it works in CAP, especially for cadets.

When a member, especially a cadet, asks you for advice on something which is a bad idea, you don't advise them on the best way to
perform that bad idea and then pin an asterisk to your answer.

You tell them, directly, to knock it off.  At least that is what we are supposed to do.

"Sir, I don't want to debate the legality of breaking the law or impacting my reputation, I'd just like to you to help me do it in the coolest way possible."

[Major Lord]

He should properly ask his own chain of command, which it sounds like he is doing. He made the mistake of asking here, thinking he could limit it to the technology available, but the C-Squared's on this board could not resist offering condemnation without information. That is how it works here. He will know better in the future.

Major Lord

[IceNine]

Again it may be a ticketable offense to have amber lights on your car in ILLINOIS but that is not the case everywhere.

Having emergency lights of any color in any state is a ticketable offence if you aren't using them according to the associated rules, regulations, codes, laws, etc. 

This includes being appropriately approved by the organization you are choosing to use as justification, if so written.  This may be as simple as having a membership card, or as complex as your wing commander writing a letter justifying your individual use on specific vehicles.

[cap235629]

Again it may be a ticketable offense to have amber lights on your car in ILLINOIS but that is not the case everywhere.

Having emergency lights of any color in any state is a ticketable offence if you aren't using them according to the associated rules, regulations, codes, laws, etc. 

This includes being appropriately approved by the organization you are choosing to use as justification, if so written.  This may be as simple as having a membership card, or as complex as your wing commander writing a letter justifying your individual use on specific vehicles.

Not in Arkansas.  So stop making blanket statements. Amber lights are treated the same as hazard flashers in Arkansas.

[Eclipse]

Not in Arkansas.  So stop making blanket statements. Amber lights are treated the same as hazard flashers in Arkansas.

Arkansas Code Title 27-49-219

(C) (i) Motor vehicles owned by state, county, and municipal agencies whose use is determined by the state agency to be required for dangerous or hazardous services and motor vehicles owned by public service corporations or private individuals whose use is determined by the Commissioner of Motor Vehicles, in accordance with regulations established by the commissioner to prevent abuses thereof, to be for extra hazardous service, may be equipped with amber flashing or rotating emergency or warning lights that shall not qualify them as emergency vehicles, but which shall during hazardous uses display their amber flashing or rotating emergency or warning lights in order that other motorists and the public may be aware of the special or hazardous use of the vehicles and shall exercise caution in approaching the vehicles at all times while the amber flashing or rotating emergency or warning lights are in operation.

(2) It shall be unlawful to install, operate, or use any rotating or flashing light on any motor vehicle except as authorized in this subsection.

(e) "School bus" means:

(1) A motor vehicle designed to carry more than ten (10) passengers:

(A) Owned by a public or a governmental agency or a private school and operated for the transportation of students to or from school or school-sponsored activities; or

(B) Privately owned and operated for compensation for the transportation of students to or from school or school-sponsored activities; and

(2) A motor vehicle designed to carry more than twenty-five (25) passengers is exempt from this section if the motor vehicle is:

(A) Owned by a public or a governmental agency or a private school and operated for the transportation of students to or from school-sponsored activities but not used to transport students on any scheduled school bus route; or

(B) Privately owned and operated for compensation under contract to a school district and used for the transportation of students to or from school-sponsored activities.

Looks about the same as most other states to me....

[cap235629]

Ok let Google be your guide, not a 12 year veteran Arkansas Police Officer. The reality is I said "treated".

everyone from storm chasers to mailmen run amber lights in Arkansas.

I am so glad I am not in Eclipse land, because he knows EVERYTHING! There would be nothing left for anyone else!

[Eclipse]

Ok let Google be your guide, not a 12 year veteran Arkansas Police Officer. The reality is I said "treated".

everyone from storm chasers to mailmen run amber lights in Arkansas.

Storm chasers and mailmen may well fall directly into the statute quoted, random POV's do not, and in fact
are specifically prohibited from even having them installed.

Further, it is a crime to even posses a blue light unless it is in its original packaging.

Just because the statute is not uniformly enforced, doesn't change the facts.   Your insinuation has been that Arkansas
is somehow different from other states, when in fact, at least as far as the law is written, they are actually more strict
than many others.

I would also bet a Trente that given the right mix of doofus behavior on someone's part, you or anyone else would enforce
every statute you could find.

There's a lot of things that are only enforced when they are enforced - window tint, front license plates, even seat belts,
that doesn't make them "kinda legal".