Mission Pilot training before completed Scanner Qualification?

[AL087]

I am currently in a trainee status as a Mission Scanner just awaiting the 2 missions to finish.  I would like to start my Mission Pilot training as I have the time, airplane and instructor all set up, which is not so easy to do with my schedule.

Looking at the SQTR for Mission Pilot, one of the prerequisites for MP is to be a mission scanner and it shows me currently as a scanner trainee on the MP SQTR.

If I finish all of the the prep and advanced training for mission pilot, will it show me as a MP trainee on my 101 card before I complete Mission Scanner or must that be completed before trainee status as a mission pilot will show.

[Eclipse]

How can you finish the tasks for MP, when you haven't even completed the #1 pre-requisite?

By reg, you're not supposed to be allowed to even start MP taskings until your Scanner is complete.

[AL087]

Thats what I needed...Thanks.

[a2capt]

Now, you can start the stuff in that nothing says you can't read it all and become familiar with it. But, no. You need the rating before any signoffs count.  I had to deal with an anxious cranky pain in the arse once who wanted a MP ride as he said, "my scanner has been done, it's awaiting approval"..

Well, until thats done, you're taking a scanner ride, or nothing. Since there's two of us, that means it will be from the front seat, but it's a scanner ride. As *someone could* disapprove that rating, and until you have it, you don't. Got it?

This individual had .. issues. When you have rich parents in a far eastern country, and their solution to their problem is to pay to send their offspring to the US, to go to college, to "get them out of their hair.." lock stock and barrel, complete with servant and driver. The sense of snotty and entitlement was big with this one. Didn't get him far, as far as I know .. that scanner rating never happened ;-)

[AL087]

Do the 2 flights required for Scanner on the SQTR need to be on actual or training missions or do they just need to be 2 training flights with someone qualified doing scanning techniques?

[N Harmon]

Why are mission pilots required to be scanners first? I can understand for mission observers, but mission pilots are not supposed to be scanners; they fly the airplane. I never understood this.

[Eclipse]

Why are mission pilots required to be scanners first? I can understand for mission observers, but mission pilots are not supposed to be scanners; they fly the airplane. I never understood this.

They need to be something first, to insure they understand the CAP Mission environment and that this is no $100 hamburger runs.

It's bad enough now as it is that many MP's think it is all about flying and forget there is a working aircrew in the plane which is why they are there to start with.  Having some fundamental hands-on understanding of that is important, and in a lot of cases glossed over.

[a2capt]

Before you can manage a Domino's Pizza location, you have to have been a pizza driver. Everyone starts by driving. Why? It's the basis of the entire deal.  I've heard that you can't even own a location without having been a driver, but..

The road to MO starts with MS. That road has a fork in it, if you have a pilot rating.

There is nothing that learning to fly taught me that would allow me to be a better MP than if I skipped MS and started at MO. I think a bit more of piloting applies to MS than MO, in that you get to work with charts, and understand that stuff on them. Yes, it also applies to MO. You can launch a sortie with a scanner or observer, so the scanner is the meat of why the bird got sent up in the first place.

Yes, the pilot flies the airplane, but having explained what we do in CAP, to other pilots who have expressed the same opinion, many times they will step back and see that having an understanding of what the scanner does really does contribute to doing the job of getting them on scene and handling the aircraft so they can do their job, better.

Also as mentioned, it gets you familiar with the CAP system of operations without putting you in a spot where you have two distinct things to worry about.

I even went the MS, MO, MP route just because all in all, it was a couple flights more, and I had both 101T's out at the same time, it gave me more exposure to the front half of the aircraft.

[md]

I agree: the MS training (especially the flights) is really essential to being a good MP, so why not do it in order? I was an MO for years before I crossed over to the dark side, got my license, and eventually became an MP. It helped a lot.

Do the 2 flights required for Scanner on the SQTR need to be on actual or training missions or do they just need to be 2 training flights with someone qualified doing scanning techniques?

Well, you're training, so they better be training (or actual) missions!

That said, it's very easy to set up a training mission - many MPs do self-funded training frequently, and they'd probably be ecstatic if you volunteered to help pay or to help request funding. Your ES or OPS officer would probably also be glad if you volunteer to help them set up some training.

(FYI, all of our flights are technically "missions," many of them "training." The training flights you're thinking of are probably either B12 (which means you pick a particular training profile and stick to it) or C17 (which is what you do when you just need a flying fix...) I believe many wings won't accept C17 as aircrew training flights.)

EDIT - for clarity... need more sleep...

[wacapgh]

Find out what your wing requires to issue a training mission number - Some have a local form to submit, other may just need a message to the Ops Director.

Outline the training you are planning on doing (it helps to include the SQTR tasks), who will be performing FRO duties, when, where, etc. If you are not asking for funding I'd say there's a 99% chance of getting it approved.

Next time, expand it to cover MSA and MRO tasks if you have qualified evlauators.

[Al Sayre]

The MS requirement give the 1000 Hr "new" CAP pilot a chance to experience what it's like to sit in the back seat of a 172 when it's 95 degrees out and you're doing pylon turns at 90 kts & 1000 AGL while he tries to keep his eyes on the target without blowing his lunch.  Hopefully he'll remember that when he's driving the plane...

[scooter]

Your not ready to be a mission pilot until you can fly the airplane safely and:
1. talk your MO through channel changes of the FM radio
2. troubleshoot the intercom system when it is not working like it should. Most times it is operator error. It is really embarrassing to abort a mission because you don't know aircraft systems. You can become famous!
3. Talk your MO through programming the GPS
4. Give an intelligent crew briefing.
5. Know all the flying rules for CAP
6. Tell your crew where to find information they may need inflight (ie. convert lat/lon to decimal or minutes, other stuff)
7. know what info is required for photo missions
8. Help your crew with anything else that will come up inflight.

Flying the airplane is the easy stuff! Being a competent mission pilot will impress your crew, the other pilots in your squadron, and the IC. Good luck.

[EMT-83]

Why does the pilot need to talk the MO through using the radio, GPS and other basic MO tasks? Those are skills that the MO should have mastered during training.

Communicate; make sure everyone is on the same page – absolutely.

Full disclosure: I'm a non-pilot MO. There are times that I need to depend on the more experienced pilot. However, if I don't know my job, I should go back into training status.

[a2capt]

Different radio, different aircraft .. rusty skills..  not every wing, group, unit, whatever, has the opportunity to train as much as some others. Actual missions are training too.

What happens if they tell you, go be MO in that 182T and all of your missions have been in a mid 80's model up until that point?

With some review from the pilot, you might not have any issues. Or you might say "I don't feel comfortable doing this".

[EMT-83]

Can definitely be an issue. I put together cheat-sheets for the various equipment in the different aircraft we use, and take a few minutes to review them before a mission.

I'll agree that the G1000 can be a challenge, especially if I haven't seen it in a while.

[RiverAux]

Why does the pilot need to talk the MO through using the radio, GPS and other basic MO tasks? Those are skills that the MO should have mastered during training.

Perhaps they're training the MO?

[scooter]

Your right. MP needs to be able to train a brand new MO, perhaps on his first mission. If MO cant do it, the MP will need to be able talk the crew through whatever needs to be done and still fly.

[Eclipse]

If the MO can't do it, the aircraft needs to come home.

[Spaceman3750]

Whether it is true or not is up for debate, but the NESA philosophy for aircrew is that the MO is responsible for executing and ultimate success of the sortie - the MP is largely the bus driver. It makes sense in part because when the MP isn't having to decide what to do and when to do it sortie-wise, he is able to pay closer attention to flying the plane. It's the same reason that many GTLs prefer to have another SM drive the van.