Had this come up at the meeting with the cadets last night. I know CAPR 52-16 has been rewritten a dozen or so times it seems over the last few years, but a search within for "diamond" yielded zero results, and nothing around the words "sergeant" or "first" got to anything either.
I'm of the opinion that the diamond is gone officially, but I can't seem to find anything definitive to prove that within CAPM 39-1 or CAPR 52-16 and of course Vanguard still sells them.
Anyone have anything I can substantiate it with.
I'd always thought that the First Sergeant was a title more than a rank, like at encampment or other large gathering of cadets. As far as it being an "official" thing, I guess that depends on what side of the fence you're on.
Our unit is large enough that we actually have a first sergeant position. I forget what his actual grade is, but I haven't seen him wear a diamond. That doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't. I just haven't been up close enough to see it.
Keep in mind that this is my local unit, and yours might differ. I'll do some checking and get back to you.
No. No. No. Don't even open this can of worms.
I know I'm gonna get flak for this but... As far as I'm concerned, wear it. As far as the reg Nutzis are concerned, you're committing sin if you wear it. Having been a Shirt back in the day, those were some of the best in my CAP career. Sure, I didn't have to wear the diamond, but it helps give you an identity.
The final word.
Not authorized by the regs, produced by Vanguard, worn commonly.
That's all you have go work with right now.
How so? I was a C/1st Sgt at an encampment as well as at my unit. I wore the diamond, but that was before NHQ actually started working out requirements for the position as well as all the allowed/not allowed discussions.
The typical discussion goes like this:
Why do you need the diamond?
So my cadets know I'm the first sergeant.
They should know that given the fact that you are, and act like one.
Well how would new people in the squadron know?
How does a little speck on your chevron signify anything to a new member?
I don't know.
I simply want to know the answer based on something from NHQ or the regs (preferably the regs).
I'm not against the diamond, but if it's not on the books, then it's simply not allowed.
I looked. No diamond. First Sergeant is a position and not a grade insignia. It used to be, but no longer. Cadets should know who the heck is in their chain of command and who does what. Some people insist on using the diamond to differentiate between the first shirt and the rest of the NCOs, but I'd have to say they are wrong.'
Diamond is not authorized by 39-1....well, it isn't IN there at any rate. It isn't even in the Cadet Great Start Guide or whatever they're calling it these days.
Any command cheif stars authorizied? >:D
Quote from: AngelWings on August 02, 2012, 05:34:38 AM
Any command cheif stars authorizied? >:D
Might as well ask for wreaths!
Quote from: AngelWings on August 02, 2012, 05:34:38 AM
Any command cheif stars authorizied? >:D
No, but even if they were, you can't wear it if you can't spell it.
Quote from: SarDragon on August 02, 2012, 06:07:46 AM
Quote from: AngelWings on August 02, 2012, 05:34:38 AM
Any command cheif stars authorizied? >:D
No, but even if they were, you can't wear it if you can't spell it.
It's a portmanteau of chef and cheif! As in the soup chef, because Command Chief pins= soup sandwich!
Quote from: Garibaldi on August 02, 2012, 06:06:36 AM
Quote from: AngelWings on August 02, 2012, 05:34:38 AM
Any command cheif stars authorizied? >:D
Might as well ask for wreaths!
CMSCAP?
Give it up.
Fail all around. :P
The staff position is now talked about in Cadet Staff Handbook CAPP 52-15.
But as others noted, that does not explicitly authorize the bling/diamond.
In case anyone is interested in what the CAP Knowledgebase says:
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/874/kw/first%20sergeant (http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/874/kw/first%20sergeant)
Since the First Sergeant diamond is a position device, and position devices are addressed in CAPM 39-1 (see Commander's Badge), and the diamond is not in the manual, the diamond is not authorized.
The Knowledge Base does not trump the regs. Pamphlets do not trump regs. In the past, the absense of the First Sergeant diamond from CAPM 39-1 was attributed to an oversight, however, nothing has been done since to 'correct' this oversight, despite multiple ICLs and NB motions since the last version of CAPM 39-1 was published. CAPR 52-16 did list the diamond, but it has been removed from that publication in the last rewrite.
According to The Knowledgebase, it is authorized for a cadet who occupies the position of cadet first sergeant. In the second volume of learn to lead on page 13, if you take that picture and crop it down to just the insignia, then you can faintly see a device in the middle of the chevrons.
Seems like folks would have better things to day than to worry about if a cadet is wearing a diamond on their insignia. In the grand scheme of things, it just doesn't matter one little bit. Ease up a bit. Some of you guys need to realize that we aren't in the military.
Quote from: Cashboy on August 02, 2012, 03:00:09 PM
According to The Knowledgebase, it is authorized for a cadet who occupies the position of cadet first sergeant. In the second volume of learn to lead on page 13, if you take that picture and crop it down to just the insignia, then you can faintly see a device in the middle of the chevrons.
Check the date(s) on the KB article.
There are plenty of national publications which show uniform issues, either because things have changed since their publication, or
because the people authoring the publication made assumptions and didn't check. That doesn't mean it's correct.
Quote from: capmedic on August 02, 2012, 03:09:40 PM
Seems like folks would have better things to day than to worry about if a cadet is wearing a diamond on their insignia. In the grand scheme of things, it just doesn't matter one little bit. Ease up a bit.
In the grand scheme, ignoring these "little things" is the reason the program is in the state it is in, and commanders feel they are free to take local liberties with the regulations.
A big part of our program is instilling attention to detail in our members. One part of that attention to detail is being able to negotiate regulations that
govern your conduct and appearance.
Quote from: capmedic on August 02, 2012, 03:09:40 PM
Some of you guys need to realize that we aren't in the military.
Relevance?
Eclipse you were correct on the dates. The knowledgebase article was dated from 2003 and the newest editions of 39-1 and 52-16 are from 2005 and 2006 respectively.
Actually, the KB is dated Feb 2012, and the most recent 52-16 is Feb 2011.
Quote from: jeders on August 02, 2012, 05:08:33 PM
Actually, the KB is dated Feb 2012, and the most recent 52-16 is Feb 2011.
Actually the most recent version of 52-16 is June 2011, the word diamond does not appear in that version, and First Sergeant is
only mentioned once in reference to another publication.
What a mess.
We've got to get away from all these cross-conflicting publications as well as the "M / P/ R" hierarchy and just start publishing clear instructions that
are updated timely.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 02, 2012, 05:16:23 PM
Quote from: jeders on August 02, 2012, 05:08:33 PM
Actually, the KB is dated Feb 2012, and the most recent 52-16 is Feb 2011.
Actually the most recent version of 52-16 is June 2011, and the word diamond does not appear in that version, and First Sergeant is
only mentioned once in reference to another publication.
What a mess.
Yes, I forgot the change in June 2011.
This is, however, one of those issues, much like the beret and ranger tabs were. Some people are going to use it no matter what, and some are going to ban it no matter what. And until we get clearer guidance from higher headquarters, all we can do is direct the areas we have direct control over.
I for one have absolutely no problem with the diamond being worn currently, but I also wouldn't have any heartburn if it went away forever.
Quote from: jeders on August 02, 2012, 05:20:10 PM
I for one have absolutely no problem with the diamond being worn currently, but I also wouldn't have any heartburn if it went away forever.
Yep - ditto.
And just like all the other inconsequential, but much-debated topics, this could be closed with two sentences from NHQ.
Guess I'll bring it up with the new Deputy of Cadets and the new unit commander. :p
Until national gives us those two lines, that's all you really can do.
Quote from: Cashboy on August 02, 2012, 04:42:40 PM
Eclipse you were correct on the dates. The knowledgebase article was dated from 2003 and the newest editions of 39-1 and 52-16 are from 2005 and 2006 respectively.
Note the KB article was UPDATED 29 Feb 2012......and references the Feb 2012 CAPP 52-15.
And yes this is one of the reasons why CAP is in the state that it is....not because local commander's take liberty....(and yes they do)....but because NHQ can't write a clear regulation and can't seem to enforce those regulations.
When MAWG encampment has a smokey bear wearing, star sporting command chief..........who cares if the Homer J. Simpson Cadet Squadron has a diamond wearing First Sergeant.
[/RANT]
Quote from: lordmonar on August 02, 2012, 09:20:53 PM
Quote from: Cashboy on August 02, 2012, 04:42:40 PM
Eclipse you were correct on the dates. The knowledgebase article was dated from 2003 and the newest editions of 39-1 and 52-16 are from 2005 and 2006 respectively.
Note the KB article was UPDATED 29 Feb 2012......and references the Feb 2012 CAPP 52-15.
And yes this is one of the reasons why CAP is in the state that it is....not because local commander's take liberty....(and yes they do)....but because NHQ can't write a clear regulation and can't seem to enforce those regulations.
When MAWG encampment has a smokey bear wearing, star sporting command chief..........who cares if the Homer J. Simpson Cadet Squadron has a diamond wearing First Sergeant.
[/RANT]
You didn't notice the diamond on his collar?
1st Sergeant is a billeted rank, so if you are chosen to be your squadron's first sergeant you wear a diamond on your SNCO grade. Your grade will be Msgt, SMSgt, or CMSgt. But you will have the 1st Sgt billet. So even if you are a chief you are still addressed as "First Sergeant"
Quote from: Danger on August 08, 2012, 04:12:18 PM
if you are chosen to be your squadron's first sergeant you wear a diamond on your SNCO grade.
The point of this thread is that yo probably don't anymore...
Quote from: Danger on August 08, 2012, 04:12:18 PM
1st Sergeant is a billeted rank, so if you are chosen to be your squadron's first sergeant you wear a diamond on your SNCO grade. Your grade will be Msgt, SMSgt, or CMSgt. But you will have the 1st Sgt billet. So even if you are a chief you are still addressed as "First Sergeant"
And you are not addressed or referred to as 'First Sergeant'. At least not properly.
We don't call anyone 'Commander So and So' or say 'Yes PRP Monitor!'
You'll occasionally here one on AD called 'Shirt' or something like that. But more commonly and more properly they are still referred to as 'Sergeant So and So' or 'Chief So and So'
You may say 'Hey you need to speak to the First Sergeant about that'
I would be very happy if cadets and seniors would stop perpetuating this.
The diamond was, indeed, authorized, as I recall. It goes back to the days before we expanded cadet grades to include the senior and chief master sergeant grades. Sounds like it was dropped from a regulation somewhere along the line, possibly an inadvertent omission. Anyone care to dig back through old regs and cite?
The digging has already been done, and posted on several other threads.
The diamond disappeared from CAPR 52-16 one or two iterations ago. I'm not sure it was ever mentioned in CAPM 39-1.
Regardless of any past mention in our governing publications, it is gone now, and, IMHO, no longer authorized.
You expect me to wade through all those threads? Sheesh.... >:D
OK, here's a better reference: a recent letter from NHQ (http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15930.0;attach=4755) . It's also attached in the CAPP 52-24 thread.
I looked on the CAPVA 52-100 (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Super_Chart__2011_low__Copy_8371994AD16FE.pdf) , and there is ZERO mention of the diamond.
Given the highlighted places in the letter, and the VA, I think the case is firmly closed.
They are refering to the command chief insignias, nothing about diamonds.
CAN NED LAY THIS ONE TO REST ONCE AND FOR ALL? Please?
For some reason the subject is like cat food for prawns (if you get the reference, I salute you). They've made a national disaster out of a simple simple slap on the wrist, "don't ever let me catch you doing that again!", and more repetition of compliance. It's the CAPTalk way. The attitudes of the people or the actual success of the encampment (which I've heard to be very successful and a wonderful time for all involved) doesn't matter, but "OH MY GOSH YOU WORE THAT!?! BEHEAD THAT MAN AT ONCE!"
Logic had its brains splattered all over the wall a long time ago when it came to this and the 1st SGT diamonds. The 1st SGT diamonds shouldn't be worn per lack of regulation, done deal. If someone is wearing them, no harm, no foul, it is an unclear subject, correct it and move on. We all know that the command cheif thing was wrong, so EP makes a point, it should just die and we can all move. We've killed another horse and are brutally beating it with a ranger rolled Mass state trooper hat.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on August 09, 2012, 06:56:05 AM
They are refering to the command chief insignias, nothing about diamonds.
CAN NED LAY THIS ONE TO REST ONCE AND FOR ALL? Please?
Command Chief, as in star? That has
never, to the best of my knowledge, spanning bits of six different decades, been authorized. Nor has it ever been an official position.
As for First Sergeant Diamonds, the original subject of this thread if you recall, my previous post still applies.
Quote from: Danger on August 08, 2012, 04:12:18 PM
1st Sergeant is a billeted rank, so if you are chosen to be your squadron's first sergeant you wear a diamond on your SNCO grade. Your grade will be Msgt, SMSgt, or CMSgt. But you will have the 1st Sgt billet. So even if you are a chief you are still addressed as "First Sergeant"
One summer I had a C/SSgt that was our First Sergeant and she found a 'diamond' somewhere to place above her C/SSgt cutout.
You guys are more fixated on diamonds than some women I've dated.
Not that I'd pull the trigger, but maybe on of our ABU cadets can ask the National Commander via eServices on this one. >:D >:D >:D
Uh oh looks like someone got hemmed up for that one. With sources cited as to the violations.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 09, 2012, 02:59:08 PM
Not that I'd pull the trigger, but maybe on of our ABU cadets can ask the National Commander via eServices on this one. >:D >:D >:D
"yo,kan we haz da nu ABU tigrstryps sir. i luvs da pattarn alot ndz peeps b chekin meh out in dem. alzo sir id lik dem 1st sargnt dimondz to go wit dem, 2. lastle id want em cmnd cheif starz ndz a ma state troopa hat so i can look gangsta, boi!"
Here is my only response.. vanguard has the First Sgt insignias..
Pre-Master Sgt : http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-cadet-grade-insignia-first-sergeant-chevron-p-7020.html (http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-cadet-grade-insignia-first-sergeant-chevron-p-7020.html)
Mst Sgt+ :
http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-chevron-cadet-master-sergeant-first-sergeant-p-7022.html (http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-chevron-cadet-master-sergeant-first-sergeant-p-7022.html)
http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-chevron-cadet-senior-master-sergeant-first-sergeant-p-7017.html (http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-chevron-cadet-senior-master-sergeant-first-sergeant-p-7017.html)
http://www.vanguardmil.com/cap-cadet-grade-insignia-chief-master-sergeant-first-sergeant-chevron-p-7019.html (http://www.vanguardmil.com/cap-cadet-grade-insignia-chief-master-sergeant-first-sergeant-chevron-p-7019.html)
As per the actual regs.. not to sure.
Quote from: BrannG on August 09, 2012, 10:15:43 PM
Here is my only response.. vanguard has the First Sgt insignias..
Pre-Master Sgt : http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-cadet-grade-insignia-first-sergeant-chevron-p-7020.html (http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-cadet-grade-insignia-first-sergeant-chevron-p-7020.html)
Mst Sgt+ :
http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-chevron-cadet-master-sergeant-first-sergeant-p-7022.html (http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-chevron-cadet-master-sergeant-first-sergeant-p-7022.html)
http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-chevron-cadet-senior-master-sergeant-first-sergeant-p-7017.html (http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-chevron-cadet-senior-master-sergeant-first-sergeant-p-7017.html)
http://www.vanguardmil.com/cap-cadet-grade-insignia-chief-master-sergeant-first-sergeant-chevron-p-7019.html (http://www.vanguardmil.com/cap-cadet-grade-insignia-chief-master-sergeant-first-sergeant-chevron-p-7019.html)
As per the actual regs.. not to sure.
So? Just because Vanguard sells it doesn't mean its authorized...
We are looking at something that was authorized but got dropped at some point and now its not although too many people use "tradition" as their rationale for doing it/wearing it...
Quote from: SarDragon on August 09, 2012, 06:50:15 AM
OK, here's a better reference: a recent letter from NHQ (http://captalk.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15930.0;attach=4755) . It's also attached in the CAPP 52-24 thread.
I looked on the CAPVA 52-100 (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Super_Chart__2011_low__Copy_8371994AD16FE.pdf) , and there is ZERO mention of the diamond.
Given the highlighted places in the letter, and the VA, I think the case is firmly closed.
One of the dangers of social media, folks. Your unit public affairs officers should be fully apprised and knowledgeable of social media as a tool vs. as a weapon. Always good to make the PA your friend, and consult that person often.
Quote from: BrannG on August 09, 2012, 10:15:43 PM
Here is my only response.. vanguard has the First Sgt insignias..
Pre-Master Sgt : http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-cadet-grade-insignia-first-sergeant-chevron-p-7020.html (http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-cadet-grade-insignia-first-sergeant-chevron-p-7020.html)
Mst Sgt+ :
http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-chevron-cadet-master-sergeant-first-sergeant-p-7022.html (http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-chevron-cadet-master-sergeant-first-sergeant-p-7022.html)
http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-chevron-cadet-senior-master-sergeant-first-sergeant-p-7017.html (http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-chevron-cadet-senior-master-sergeant-first-sergeant-p-7017.html)
http://www.vanguardmil.com/cap-cadet-grade-insignia-chief-master-sergeant-first-sergeant-chevron-p-7019.html (http://www.vanguardmil.com/cap-cadet-grade-insignia-chief-master-sergeant-first-sergeant-chevron-p-7019.html)
As per the actual regs.. not to sure.
Quote from: CAPM 39-1Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear. NOTE: CAPMart may sell items that are not authorized for wear with the USAF–style or CAP distinctive uniforms. This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within.
Now, we all know that CAPMart is no more, but it has been functionally replaced by Vanguard. Let's not bicker over that.
Sir, don't tell me what I can or can't argue about! WE WILL FIND A WAY
PM sent. >:(
Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.
And it looks like we got two people who were involved in an internet fight! Young versus old, east versus west, and a definate clash of humor! Please stay tuned on "Drama: Life In The CAPTalk" for more arguing, debates, and no contests stories from the members who were there to witness it! :clap:
:P :P :P :P :P :P
Quote from: Private Investigator on August 09, 2012, 09:21:35 AM
Quote from: Danger on August 08, 2012, 04:12:18 PM
1st Sergeant is a billeted rank, so if you are chosen to be your squadron's first sergeant you wear a diamond on your SNCO grade. Your grade will be Msgt, SMSgt, or CMSgt. But you will have the 1st Sgt billet. So even if you are a chief you are still addressed as "First Sergeant"
One summer I had a C/SSgt that was our First Sergeant and she found a 'diamond' somewhere to place above her C/SSgt cutout.
WIWAC, before the advent of any C/NCO rank above C/MSgt, the first shirt diamond was a separate piece of equipment that had to be placed above the stripes. I know, because I was my squadron's Top at one point. I believe we still have a couple of those diamonds in our squadron rank box. We also have a few of the old insignia with the raised shield that you'd have to super glue back on if it popped off.
They're a nice piece of nostalgia because they were probably mine back in the day.
They still sell the diamond on Vanguard, even though non SNCOs aren't supposed to be 1st Sgts.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 21, 2012, 06:26:46 PM
They still sell the diamond on Vanguard, even though non SNCOs aren't supposed to be 1st Sgts.
Bu-but I am a master tech sergeant!!!
Quote from: AngelWings on August 21, 2012, 06:53:20 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 21, 2012, 06:26:46 PM
They still sell the diamond on Vanguard, even though non SNCOs aren't supposed to be 1st Sgts.
Bu-but I am a master tech sergeant!!!
PSSHT, I am a senior chief master awesome epic grand pubah commander major sergeant. Or C/scmaegpcmsgt for short.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on August 21, 2012, 09:18:59 PM
Quote from: AngelWings on August 21, 2012, 06:53:20 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 21, 2012, 06:26:46 PM
They still sell the diamond on Vanguard, even though non SNCOs aren't supposed to be 1st Sgts.
Bu-but I am a master tech sergeant!!!
PSSHT, I am a senior chief master awesome epic grand pubah commander major sergeant. Or C/scmaegpcmsgt for short.
Ha! Try Senior Chief Awesome Poobah Emir Great Overlord And Tyrant...SCAPEGOAT!!!!
Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.