Touch and goes???

Started by Nomex Maximus, August 08, 2008, 06:20:37 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Nomex Maximus

I am reading through 60-1. Are touch and goes allowed in CAP aircraft? I see no restriction in 60-1 and in fact touch and goes seem to be a part of the flight proficiency profuiles. I have been told that touch and goes are not allowed... anyone know for sure?
Nomex Tiberius Maximus
2dLT, MS, MO, TMP and MP-T
an inspiration to all cadets
My Theme Song

Climbnsink

I've done plenty.  It's retarded if they are not allowed.  I could see no T&G's at a specific airport(short runway etc.).    Besides if it isn't specifically forbidden don't ask or you might light some recreational bureaucrat's fire.

Larry Mangum

Allowed, with caveats as it depends upon the aircraft poh. For example you can not perform touch and go's in a turbo charges aircraft as you will overheat the turbine ( at least on a C206).
Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
DCS, Operations
SWR-SWR-001

Nomex Maximus

I guess then it is a MIWG urban legend then. Here I go out to practice...
Nomex Tiberius Maximus
2dLT, MS, MO, TMP and MP-T
an inspiration to all cadets
My Theme Song

Flying Pig

Quote from: wawgcap on August 08, 2008, 06:44:36 PM
Allowed, with caveats as it depends upon the aircraft poh. For example you can not perform touch and go's in a turbo charges aircraft as you will overheat the turbine ( at least on a C206).

Really?   I fly a Turbo 206 pretty regular and do them all the time.  I just watch my digital temps on my EGT, CHT and TIT

Frenchie

Touch and go's are one of the best things you can do for proficiency and I do them fairly regularly in CAP aircraft.
.
I don't see any reason why you couldn't or shouldn't do them in a turbocharged aircraft.  Naturally they are going to be more prone to overheating, but any high performance aircraft (and even low performance ones to a lesser degree) are subject to overheating if proper care is not exercised.  Just manage cowl flaps, lean appropriately and don't climb at Vx for any longer than necessary.  The G1000 is nice because you can keep an eye on all the CHTs. 

The standard green/red CHT gauge leaves a lot to be desired and only looks at one cylinder.  Lycoming and Continental spec 500 and 460 as the red line respectively, but it's not a great idea to run hotter than 400 for any length of time.

ricecakecm

I've got a couple of issues with touch n goes:

1.  Handling the airplane during the landing roll, slowing down, stopping, turning off onto the taxiway, etc. are all very important parts of landing, and something that you can't do if you touch n go.

2.  In a complex or high performance airplane, you've got to probably re-trim, open the cowl flaps, suck up the wing flaps, etc. all while rolling down the runway, probably not paying complete attention to the control of the airplane.  And if you're in something where the gear swings, while you're doing all this, you run the chance of grabbing the wrong handle.

I worked at the largest flight school in my state for 3 years as an instructor and check instructor.  We would only do touch n goes in non-complex, single engine airplanes with students who already had a private certificate.  Working towards your private?  Full stops.  Flying a 172RG?  Full stops.  Flying a twin?  Full stops.

It doesn't take that much more time at most airports to land, stop, and taxi back.  And if it takes too long to do that, you probably shouldn't be doing multiple landings there anyways.

That said, I've never prohibited it in a supplement to 60-1 and never plan to.

Short Field

Night currency requires full stop landings to qualify as a landing.  Taxing around on the airport without getting lost is a bit harder at night.

I like touch and goes during the day but depending on the length of the runway and your airplane, they can get a bit busy.  Moving your flaps from 40 degrees to 0 degrees is nice and quick with a johnson bar but electric flaps can take a while - and once they are up, you start cranking your trim back to takeoff configuration from landing configuration.   You can eat up a lot of the runway just getting back into takeoff configuration.
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

stratoflyer

If traffic permits, and enough runway, stop and go's work fine.
"To infinity, and beyond!"

Eduardo Rodriguez, 2LT, CAP

PHall

Quote from: stratoflyer on August 11, 2008, 04:43:27 AM
If traffic permits, and enough runway, stop and go's work fine.

You must like changing brake pads...

Bottom line is, the 60-1 does not prohibit touch and goes. The next time "they" tell you that it does, have them "eduacate" you by showing you where it is in the 60-1.

This could also be a Region/Wing Supplement to the 60-1 too, so you might want to check there too.

stratoflyer

True, stop and go's are hard on breaks. But great to measure your short field performance. Besides, I rather change the break pads but know I can make a good landing with feet on the breaks.

Anybody ever done a run-up while taxing?  >:D

I haven't.  ;D
"To infinity, and beyond!"

Eduardo Rodriguez, 2LT, CAP

Trung Si Ma

Freedom isn't free - I paid for it

LittleIronPilot

I rarely do T&G's in my personal aircraft....just too much that can go wrong.

FW

^ Yep, too much wear and tear.  It's amazing how careful we are when it's our own personal aircraft.    ;D :angel:

stratoflyer

Ah, the rental car mentality. No wonder they sent out that safety brief.
"To infinity, and beyond!"

Eduardo Rodriguez, 2LT, CAP

PHall

Quote from: LittleIronPilot on August 11, 2008, 08:04:51 PM
I rarely do T&G's in my personal aircraft....just too much that can go wrong.

And how many T&G's did you do when you were learning to fly?  I know I did more then a few.


SoCalCAPOfficer

#16
Quote from: FW on August 11, 2008, 11:04:05 PM
^ Yep, too much wear and tear.  It's amazing how careful we are when it's our own personal aircraft.    ;D :angel:

I have done hundreds of touch and goes with no problems.  I fail to see how it causes more wear and tear on an airplane that is already moving.  I would think it would cause more wear and tear to taxi back and start the run from a dead start.  The engine would be running longer during the taxi and longer during the takeoff at high rpm.

Now touch and goes in a retractable is a different matter, since there is more chance of a mistake, so taxi back makes sense and is safer.
Daniel L. Hough, Maj, CAP
Commander
Hemet Ryan Sq 59  PCR-CA-458

airdale

QuoteAnd how many T&G's did you do when you were learning to fly?  I know I did more then a few.

Me, too.  But my logbook now shows over 1300 landings and I find myself doing T&Gs much less often during practice sessions than when I had 30 landings.  First, no T&G with retrac airplanes.  Second, when I am practicing it is because I am working to improve some aspect of my flying.  I find the time it takes to do the taxi-back useful in thinking about how I did on the landing.

That said, I did 7 T&Gs last night after dusk waiting for the witching hour.  Then I did my three full stops for night currency.  I tend to do this for night currency because a bunch of dusk/dark landings let me work on flare calibration ref the runway lights and landing with no landing light.  All of this was in a simple Warrior, so not too many things to remember or screw up.

Larry Mangum

To clarify my statement on T&G's in a turbo aircraft, unless it is prohibited by the POH, there is no limitation on performing them unless a local, wing, region or national policy prohibits them. I do  know that Washington Wing had to replace a turbo that was overheated due to improper cooling while performin T&G's and inexperience in Turbo aircraft.  The aircraft wound up being assigned to an area of the state were it could be operated by high time Turbo expereinced pilots.
Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
DCS, Operations
SWR-SWR-001

FW

Quote from: SoCalCAPOfficer on August 12, 2008, 06:23:37 PM
Quote from: FW on August 11, 2008, 11:04:05 PM
^ Yep, too much wear and tear.  It's amazing how careful we are when it's our own personal aircraft.    ;D :angel:

I have done hundreds of touch and goes with no problems.  I fail to see how it causes more wear and tear on an airplane that is already moving.  I would think it would cause more wear and tear to taxi back and start the run from a dead start.  The engine would be running longer during the taxi and longer during the takeoff at high rpm.

Now touch and goes in a retractable is a different matter, since there is more chance of a mistake, so taxi back makes sense and is safer.
T&Gs are hard on the engine; especially TC and Larger normaly aspirated piston engines.  Over time (I've been told over and over) engine life is shortened due to repititive cooling and heating of Cylinders and Pistons.   Touch and goes are important for proficiency however, I do them in a rented aircraft.

SoCalCAPOfficer

Quote from: FW on August 12, 2008, 07:39:06 PM
Quote from: SoCalCAPOfficer on August 12, 2008, 06:23:37 PM
Quote from: FW on August 11, 2008, 11:04:05 PM
^ Yep, too much wear and tear.  It's amazing how careful we are when it's our own personal aircraft.    ;D :angel:

I have done hundreds of touch and goes with no problems.  I fail to see how it causes more wear and tear on an airplane that is already moving.  I would think it would cause more wear and tear to taxi back and start the run from a dead start.  The engine would be running longer during the taxi and longer during the takeoff at high rpm.

Now touch and goes in a retractable is a different matter, since there is more chance of a mistake, so taxi back makes sense and is safer.
T&Gs are hard on the engine; especially TC and Larger normaly aspirated piston engines.  Over time (I've been told over and over) engine life is shortened due to repititive cooling and heating of Cylinders and Pistons.   Touch and goes are important for proficiency however, I do them in a rented aircraft.

As far as cooling and heating go, it isnt whether the takeoff is a touch and go, or a taxiback and a takeoff that would matter.  It is the number of such takeoffs and landings done in the traffic pattern in a short period of time that causes the wear. 

I believe there is more time for cooling to take place during a taxi back than a touch and go.  I could be wrong, but it just makes sense to me that the longer time the engine is at idle or close to it, the more it will cool and then have a greater differential to come up to temp during takeoff.
Daniel L. Hough, Maj, CAP
Commander
Hemet Ryan Sq 59  PCR-CA-458

FW

Continued relatively quick repetitions of idle... full; idle... full power aren't good for long engine life.  It isn't dangerous, just expensive.    The problem with this cycle is quick or shock cooling/heating of the engine during the T&G procedure.  In a TC engine, this can cause some drastic damage.  In a large, say IO 540, the quick changes in temps can cause metal fatigue quicker than nice long changes in temps like during taxi after landing or before TO.   It's one of the reasons why you want to keep a TC engine running  for a while before shut down.  This is what I learned however, YMMV.

Frenchie

Any argument against touch-n-goes based on engine heating and cooling is pretty weak.  The evidence of shock cooling harming an engine is pretty much non-existent and many engine experts who actually go by evidence consider shock cooling damage a myth.

Touch-n-goes refresh landing skills and to some extent go around skills, both of which are invaluable.