CFI to Captain

[Flying Pig]

I have a senior member who is my Deputy for Cadets.  He is a CFI-I SEL MEL and is a working CFI at a local 141 flight school.  He has his Form 5 done, is CD qual'd and is an O-ride pilot.  He has been in CAP about 10 years and is a former Mitchell cadet also.  He is working on his Form 91.

He was denied promotion to Capt and was told that as soon as he attends the check pilot course he will be promoted.   Nothing in the regs says anything about the check pilot course as a requirement that I can find. 

[mikeylikey]

....and?  Being a Mitchell Cadet he already got a break on promotions I am sure?  Did he just get his CFI, and now he wants to be made a CAPT? 

Sorry.....I can't help you.  Perhaps he can promote the same way most other CAP members do, serve TIG, and finish PRO DEV.

Is he a 1st LT?  If so, 18 months is not that long to wait. 

Also, The group or wing commander can make any rule they want about approving special promotions.  I think it may a "local" issue.  I never heard about having to attend the check pilot course before.

This is just one more guy that had more money than others and was able to "buy" his CAPT.  (you know that is what it is......pilots have the $$ to spend on flight training, and are awarded for it).  It is an unfair system (special promotions in CAP).

[IceNine]

....and?  Being a Mitchell Cadet he already got a break on promotions I am sure?  Did he just get his CFI, and now he wants to be made a CAPT? 

Sorry.....I can't help you.  Perhaps he can promote the same way most other CAP members do, serve TIG, and finish PRO DEV.

Is he a 1st LT?  If so, 18 months is not that long to wait. 

Also, The group or wing commander can make any rule they want about approving special promotions.  I think it may a "local" issue.  I never heard about having to attend the check pilot course before.

This is just one more guy that had more money than others and was able to "buy" his CAPT.  (you know that is what it is......pilots have the $$ to spend on flight training, and are awarded for it).  It is an unfair system (special promotions in CAP).

Did you read his post before your started your pretty little rant?

10 years of service, and actively flying as a CD and Orientation Pilot, Give him the promotion.  If he weren't using his skill set to support our mission then no way would I give him the promotion. 

It's just like any other professional asking for the promotion that the regulations says they can have. 

The only reason I can see for a denial under these circumstances is that the wing is lacking Check pilots and this is there way of persuading people to take that leap

[flyguy06]

Mikey while I agree with you that this guy shoukld work his way up like everyone else( I was a formwer cadet myself) I have to take issue with the statement that pilots have a lot of money. That is just not true.

Most young people trying to get into the airlines have to take out massive sallie mae loans to fund our flight training and they will be working for years to rerpay the loans back. I dont even want to think about the amount of money Ihave spent on flight training. But I am currently in training to fly jets and everytime I step into the sim, its worth it.

But yes, I agree that there is no national requirement to go to check pilot school to be a Capt. You only need to be a CFI. But it may be a local thing.

[Flying Pig]

  I am not talking about whether anyone agrees with it.  Thats why we have policy to set the standard and not have "local" requirements.  CAP has set the precedent nation wide.  I know several CFI's who have come in and were awarded Capt right off.  Here we have a member who is dedicated and only wants what is due.  In fact, he meets the requirement in two areas.  CFI and CFI-I.  By your example, I guess all of the CAP lawyers, MD's and CHaplains all "bought" their promotions as well.  Not to mention the military officers who "bought" Capt or Major based on their training.


FAA/FCC Rating                             Grade
Pilots
Private                                         2d Lt
Instrument or Commercial           1st Lt
CFI/CFII or ATP                            Capt
Maintenance
A or P Mechanic                           2d Lt
A&P Mechanic                              1st Lt
A&P Mechanic
w/Inspection Authorization           Capt
 
Communicators
General Radiotelephone
Operators License                      1st Lt

Ground Instructors
Basic Instructor                         2d Lt
Advanced Instructor                  1st Lt
Instrument Instructor               Capt

[RiverAux]

I don't like our special promotions system one bit, but seeing as how it is the regulation I would give it to him.

Of course even since he is apparently still a 1st Lt after 10 years, he obviously isn't a rank hog.  Heck, with very little application he could have been a Major and possibly a Lt. Col. by now if he had wanted. 

[mikeylikey]

^ No one is "entitled" to automatic special promotion.  Flying Pig......you have your answer already, it was denied until your Officer goes to the check pilot course.  If it was denied at Group, then it is a group requirement, if it was denied at Wing, then it is a Wing Requirement you may not be aware of.

Special promotions take away from the value of "regular members".  You are basically saying "this guy is pilot, so he is a CAPT automatically, sorry 2nd Lt Scruffy, your not valuable enough to our organization, and we will hold you back as long as possible from promoting". 

I know military Officers that promoted through the CAP ranks like a regular member would, even though they could have come in as a CAPT or MAJOR.  Myself being one of them.  Achievements outside of CAP, are just that.  Why is one persons medical degree better than another persons marketing degree?  The doctor sure as hell can't practice medicine in CAP. 

The whole system sucks and is unfair to those that serve TIG and actually earn their promotions the way that was intended.  If we really need to waive advanced promotions in front of people to join CAP, then our organization sucks more than is generally known (in a failure type of way).

Sorry for hijacking, this is one area I have deep feelings about, and hope to see changed.    

[flyguy06]

This is an aviation organization. I think people with aviation experiences should be recognized accordingly. Its not that the non pilot is less important. In fact, who really cares. They arent with holding pay from the non pilot. I could be a 2nd Lt and still be the top dog in my squadron. Its not about rank neccessarily. Its about experience.

[RiverAux]

We're not talking about whether there should be special promotions, we're talking about a specific case of someone being denied. 

Now, if there actually is a written Wing supplement adding this requirement, thats okay, but you've got to remember that many CAP members are prone to accidentally making up their own "regulations" by misremembering the actual rule.  I wouldn't be surprised that someone in authority thought you actually had to be a check pilot before taking advantage of this special promotion even though it might not be written down somewhere. 

[arajca]

The next step would be to request a copy of the policy/reg that has the local/group/wing requirement. If it is not published, I would defintely challange it to the next higher commander.

[Pylon]

Perhaps he can promote the same way most other CAP members do, serve TIG, and finish PRO DEV.

Hey Mikey, you might want to note that that's your opinion.  Per CAP Regs, receiving promotions based on criteria other than Duty Performance are just as legit and deserved.

Also, The group or wing commander can make any rule they want about approving special promotions.  I think it may a "local" issue.

No, they can't.

I don't think CAPR 35-5 can make it any more clear than putting it right in Section A, Paragraph 1:

SECTION A - GENERAL PROVISIONS 
1. General.  Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol.  CAP  unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria,  procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited. 

This is just one more guy that had more money than others and was able to "buy" his CAPT.  (you know that is what it is......pilots have the $$ to spend on flight training, and are awarded for it).  It is an unfair system (special promotions in CAP).

That's a terrible attitude, Mikey.  Nobody "bought" a promotion.  Do officers who join the Army coming up through OCS "buy" their commission by paying for college out of pocket?   Do legal officers "buy" their promotion to Capt by footing the bill for law school?    CAP offers CFI's advanced rank because we need people with their specific skill set... a skill set that would cost CAP and CAP members millions of dollars a year if we had to pay for it all.  Since they contribute that higher-level skills set to the organization - skills that most members can't contribute - we recognize them with higher-level grade/rank.  Very simple.  And it's completely legit, not a free pass, under our current system.

Your "opinion" and vehement hate for people who don't get rank through duty performance promotions is not gospel, nor regulation.

[ßτε]

CAPR 35-5

21. Eligibility Requirements.
a. Be at least 21 years of age.
b. Be a high school graduate (or educational equivalent).
c. Complete Level I of the Senior Member Professional Development Program. Upon completion of Level I training, members are encouraged to enter an appropriate functional specialty track, but Level II training is not mandatory for promotion under this section. (It should be noted, however, that members promoted under these provisions will not be eligible for promotion above the grade of captain until they have achieved the appropriate skill level.)
d. Complete Cadet Protection Program Training (CPPT).
e. The member must also be certified by the unit commander as contributing his or her special skills to the mission of CAP and performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended.
f. Be recommended by immediate superior and unit commander.
g. After initial appointment, members may advance to the grades authorized for higher mission related skills as higher ratings are obtained without reference to time-in-grade upon recommendation by the unit commander.

I think what may be happening is that Group is interpreting paragraph 21e as requiring special skills as a CFI to be used in CAP. That would usually mean as a check pilot or as an instructor pilot. As far as I know, there is no CAWG supplement clarifying this.

However, it also states that it is the Squadron commander who certifies that the skills are being used for the benefit of CAP. If you as the squadron commander have done this, I think that is enough for paragraph 21e.

If it were me in you position, I would find out at what point it was denied. Was it at the Group Personnel Officer level, or the Group Commander level? Either way, try to get a clear indication of where it specifically states that the CFI must be a check pilot.  Explain your interpretation and hopefully you can get the promotion through.

[RiverAux]

I think a well-meaning person could interpret that clause as you suggest.  However, I wish they would clarify that in the regulation.  It wouldn't be hard to do -- if you want to take advantage of the special promotion for pilot, they could easily specify that you have to have become a CAP Pilot, and so on. 

[ßτε]

I found something in CAWGM 11-1 Chapter 3 (1997):

3-6. PROMOTIONS FOR MISSION RELATED SKILLS
a. General purpose. In recognition of certain special skills and qualifications earned outside of CAP, but which are directly related to the CAP mission, certain senior members are eligible for initial appointment (after completion of Level I and CPHRT) to a grade commensurate with these skills. See CAPR 35-5, Section D, for a detailed description of requirements.

b. Mission-related skills. The special skills and qualifications along with the commensurate grade authorized are listed in Figure 3-2. The grades listed in Figure 3-2 are the maximum grades authorized by CAPR 35-5.

c. Promotion standards. A new member should not be recommended for the maximum grade unless it is clearly demonstrated that the applicable skills are being used in and for the benefit of CAP. This means, for example, that a CFI rating does not automatically qualify an individual for the grade of captain. This grade may be recommended if the individual is currently an authorized CAP check pilot or instructor pilot and is using his/her CFI rating to give check rides or instruct CAP pilots. This philosophy applies to all initial appointments made under the provisions of CAPR 35-5. All subsequent promotions must be earned according to the training requirements for duty performance promotions.

That may be where it is coming from. I don't think it is entirely consistent with current National regulations.

[FW]

I found something in CAWGM 11-1 Chapter 3 (1997):

3-6. PROMOTIONS FOR MISSION RELATED SKILLS
a. General purpose. In recognition of certain special skills and qualifications earned outside of CAP, but which are directly related to the CAP mission, certain senior members are eligible for initial appointment (after completion of Level I and CPHRT) to a grade commensurate with these skills. See CAPR 35-5, Section D, for a detailed description of requirements.

b. Mission-related skills. The special skills and qualifications along with the commensurate grade authorized are listed in Figure 3-2. The grades listed in Figure 3-2 are the maximum grades authorized by CAPR 35-5.

c. Promotion standards. A new member should not be recommended for the maximum grade unless it is clearly demonstrated that the applicable skills are being used in and for the benefit of CAP. This means, for example, that a CFI rating does not automatically qualify an individual for the grade of captain. This grade may be recommended if the individual is currently an authorized CAP check pilot or instructor pilot and is using his/her CFI rating to give check rides or instruct CAP pilots. This philosophy applies to all initial appointments made under the provisions of CAPR 35-5. All subsequent promotions must be earned according to the training requirements for duty performance promotions.

That may be where it is coming from. I don't think it is entirely consistent with current National regulations.

This is consistant with CAPR 35-5.  Remember, the criteria or standards are to be "eligible for initial appointment".  There are many subjective factors which the commander is responsible to consider before reccommending or making the promotion.

[afgeo4]

^ No one is "entitled" to automatic special promotion.  Flying Pig......you have your answer already, it was denied until your Officer goes to the check pilot course.  If it was denied at Group, then it is a group requirement, if it was denied at Wing, then it is a Wing Requirement you may not be aware of.

Special promotions take away from the value of "regular members".  You are basically saying "this guy is pilot, so he is a CAPT automatically, sorry 2nd Lt Scruffy, your not valuable enough to our organization, and we will hold you back as long as possible from promoting". 

I know military Officers that promoted through the CAP ranks like a regular member would, even though they could have come in as a CAPT or MAJOR.  Myself being one of them.  Achievements outside of CAP, are just that.  Why is one persons medical degree better than another persons marketing degree?  The doctor sure as hell can't practice medicine in CAP. 

The whole system sucks and is unfair to those that serve TIG and actually earn their promotions the way that was intended.  If we really need to waive advanced promotions in front of people to join CAP, then our organization sucks more than is generally known (in a failure type of way).

Sorry for hijacking, this is one area I have deep feelings about, and hope to see changed.    

I agree with the fact that NHQ has left room for local commanders to make this decision. However, the local commander must have some policy in place regarding this. Otherwise, this can be a purely emotional/personal decision with nothing to back the denial and can be investigated by the IG for wrongdoing.

Promotions are rewards for having done a good job and a show of belief in you and your abilities. Promotions aren't an "incentive tool". They shouldn't be used to blackmail members into doing things that HQ wants done. That is the WRONG way to go about it.

Local headquarters can deny a cadet's promotion too. Does that mean a commander should deny cadets their grade until they wash his/her car? Shine his/her boots? Pass the CAPT-116?

Different members are interested in different things. Perhaps this member doesn't want to be a Check pilot??? He shouldn't have to be one. This is a volunteer organization. However, NHQ says that someone can be promoted in recognition of aviator qualifications and I support the thought. We (and the military) promote professionals like doctors, lawyers and chaplains. As an organization, it is important that we attract experienced pilots and especially check pilots. Given that we don't pay a dime to use their services (that they could make a nice buck on in the civ world), I think we should be happy to promote them.

After all, what is the extra bar really worth? Isn't an active, experienced and  hard to find member more important than that? Just think about it.

[LtCol Hooligan]

So he has been in for 10 years.  What's holding him back from duty promotion?  Is it the evil AFIADL 13 requirement?  I do admit that I would approve the promotion for mission skills too, but I think I would talk to him about completing the normal promotion items as well.  It only makes sense for someone in that long to have done the basic professional development requirements by then.

[Gunner C]

There could also be some other unknown fator. We may not have all the facts.  He may have just plain pissed off the commander - that's a promotion killer.

GC

[mikeylikey]

The Officer in question here received 1st Lt FEB 2007, thus only needs to wait until August 2008 to get TIG promotion to CAPTAIN?  Why the rush FlyGuy06?

flyguy06....don't be angry with me, that info came PM'ed to me.  I am in no way psychic, or have NHQ connections (or do I     )

[CadetProgramGuy]

The Officer in question here received 1st Lt FEB 2007, thus only needs to wait until August 2008 to get TIG promotion to CAPTAIN?  Why the rush FlyGuy06?

flyguy06....don't be angry with me, that info came PM'ed to me.  I am in no way psychic, or have NHQ connections (or do I     )

I look at this from another perspective.  You only get to use 1 of the special promotions.

Either Mitchell to Lt -or- CFI to Capt.

Sounds like he has the Mitchell to Lt used, wait out the TIG.