Thoughts on building time

[flyguy06]

No, check thisout. we have a navy flying club in our area. In order to join you have to be in the military, retired, spouse or CAP. So, what peopl edo is they join CAP just to get into the Navy flying club. I have members on our roster that have been in CAP since 1998 and hav eonly completeed Level 1. They fly at the navy club all the time but never come to a CAP meeting.
they dont want to fly in CAP because they say its too much red tape to go through.

I think we talked about this before. Where I used to live in PA, the local Navy flying club was similarly set up, but they had those problems before, too. So, in order to apply for membership, you had to be a rated CAP mission pilot, and continue to hold the MP qual, otherwise they could boot you.

Solved that problem.

Thats not a bad idea. But I have to say not really fair. What if you dont want to be a mission pilot? What if your interest is just givng O-rides? I amnot a missiojn pilot. I am an O-ride pilot. We have a member like that. he's an older gentleman, he has no interets in ES. He justy wants to fly the cadets.

I may agree with you have to be a Form 5 pilot for a year or something like that but then how would you enforce that? Its not inthe Navy regs nor is it in CAP regs. The Commander doesnt realize he can make his own standard of behavior. he thinks he is just supposed to interpret the regs

[mikeylikey]

No, check thisout. we have a navy flying club in our area. In order to join you have to be in the military, retired, spouse or CAP. So, what peopl edo is they join CAP just to get into the Navy flying club. I have members on our roster that have been in CAP since 1998 and hav eonly completeed Level 1. They fly at the navy club all the time but never come to a CAP meeting.
they dont want to fly in CAP because they say its too much red tape to go through.

I think we talked about this before. Where I used to live in PA, the local Navy flying club was similarly set up, but they had those problems before, too. So, in order to apply for membership, you had to be a rated CAP mission pilot, and continue to hold the MP qual, otherwise they could boot you.

Solved that problem.

That wouldn't be Willow Grove would it?  Or in Philly?

[SJFedor]

Thats not a bad idea. But I have to say not really fair. What if you dont want to be a mission pilot? What if your interest is just givng O-rides? I amnot a missiojn pilot. I am an O-ride pilot. We have a member like that. he's an older gentleman, he has no interets in ES. He justy wants to fly the cadets.

I may agree with you have to be a Form 5 pilot for a year or something like that but then how would you enforce that? Its not inthe Navy regs nor is it in CAP regs. The Commander doesnt realize he can make his own standard of behavior. he thinks he is just supposed to interpret the regs

They really did that to filter out those who were using CAP as a door to get into the club w/o really giving anything to CAP. It's been a while since I have talked to any of the members from up there, but when they opened it up to CAP, that was the bar that they set. They didn't want to be inundated with every 172 driver that CAP had. You do make a good point about how you can be a very giving and productive pilot in CAP w/o being F91 qualified, but, that's their perogative.

That wouldn't be Willow Grove would it?  Or in Philly?

Yup, NAS Willow Grove. Last time I had talked to anyone about that club was when I was still flying out of DYL with 907. Lt Col Friel, Capt Comly, and a few of the other MP's from that unit were members, and were telling me about the requirements to get in. Lt Col Friel promised me a ride in one of the T-34s, which I still need to collect.

[mikeylikey]

^ You Sir, need to get back to PA.  Pack up and move back, then collect your owed flights.   

[flyguy06]

Yes, I ALWAYS ask, why is there such an emphasis on ES . I mean just take a look at this board. On the Cadet Programs page someone asked what field activities would you do for cadets and everyone of the suggestions were Ground Team related. I mean those are funacitivities yes,. But they are not required. ES is not a requirement to be successful in CAP. Especially for cadets. A cadet can go through the entire cadet program and make their Sapaatz without even picking up a DF or getting GEN ES.

I dont mean to change the subjsct but it seems there is so much emphasis on ES. They give the impression that it is mandatory to have an ES sepcialty or participate in some form of it when it is not mandatory.

Again, dont get me wrong. I like ES to. Just yesterday I went to a SAREX and began training for AOBD. But please dont give the impression that ES is a mandatory actitivyt in CAP because it isnt

[Frenchie]

Yes, I ALWAYS ask, why is there such an emphasis on ES . I mean just take a look at this board. On the Cadet Programs page someone asked what field activities would you do for cadets and everyone of the suggestions were Ground Team related. I mean those are funacitivities yes,. But they are not required. ES is not a requirement to be successful in CAP. Especially for cadets. A cadet can go through the entire cadet program and make their Sapaatz without even picking up a DF or getting GEN ES.

I dont mean to change the subjsct but it seems there is so much emphasis on ES. They give the impression that it is mandatory to have an ES sepcialty or participate in some form of it when it is not mandatory.

Again, dont get me wrong. I like ES to. Just yesterday I went to a SAREX and began training for AOBD. But please dont give the impression that ES is a mandatory actitivyt in CAP because it isnt

You are correct in that ES isn't mandatory by any means.  I know of entire squadrons that have nothing to do with ES, whatsoever, and they are strong squadrons that do an excellent job.

I'm sure there are many squadrons out there who have excellent cadet programs which have nothing to do with ES, but what I've seen the most of are things like making paper airplanes and model rockets.  As far as fostering leadership skills, volunteerism, respect, and integrity in cadets, few things do all of these as well as getting them involved in ES.  Seeing as how the very foundation of CAP is based on ES, it's hard to go wrong making ES a central part of the squadron's activities.

[flyguy06]

Yes, I ALWAYS ask, why is there such an emphasis on ES . I mean just take a look at this board. On the Cadet Programs page someone asked what field activities would you do for cadets and everyone of the suggestions were Ground Team related. I mean those are funacitivities yes,. But they are not required. ES is not a requirement to be successful in CAP. Especially for cadets. A cadet can go through the entire cadet program and make their Sapaatz without even picking up a DF or getting GEN ES.

I dont mean to change the subjsct but it seems there is so much emphasis on ES. They give the impression that it is mandatory to have an ES sepcialty or participate in some form of it when it is not mandatory.

Again, dont get me wrong. I like ES to. Just yesterday I went to a SAREX and began training for AOBD. But please dont give the impression that ES is a mandatory actitivyt in CAP because it isnt

You are correct in that ES isn't mandatory by any means.  I know of entire squadrons that have nothing to do with ES, whatsoever, and they are strong squadrons that do an excellent job.

I'm sure there are many squadrons out there who have excellent cadet programs which have nothing to do with ES, but what I've seen the most of are things like making paper airplanes and model rockets.  As far as fostering leadership skills, volunteerism, respect, and integrity in cadets, few things do all of these as well as getting them involved in ES.  Seeing as how the very foundation of CAP is based on ES, it's hard to go wrong making ES a central part of the squadron's activities.

And thats where i disagree. I do not believe the very foundation of CAP is ES. I know when I was a cadet in the mid 80's the emphasis was the Air Force and getting youths into the Air Force Academy or AFROTC in collge. Yes, we did GT stufff but the main focus was a positive relationship withthe USAF. I guess thathas changed over the years.

You can teach and develop many leadsership skills without ES. ROTC does it everyday.

[Frenchie]

And thats where i disagree. I do not believe the very foundation of CAP is ES. I know when I was a cadet in the mid 80's the emphasis was the Air Force and getting youths into the Air Force Academy or AFROTC in collge. Yes, we did GT stufff but the main focus was a positive relationship withthe USAF. I guess thathas changed over the years.

You can teach and develop many leadsership skills without ES. ROTC does it everyday.

If you look at how CAP got it's start, I don't see how you can say the foundation isn't ES.  I think CAP was going for a good 20 years or so before cadets came into the picture, at least as we know them today.

As I said, you don't need ES to have a good cadet program.  It's just not a bad way to go.  It fosters all the things CAP is about while providing a sense of accomplishment.  USAF customs and courtesies certainly should be taught to all cadets extensively, but CAP is not ROTC, nor should it become ROTC.

[flyguy06]

And thats where i disagree. I do not believe the very foundation of CAP is ES. I know when I was a cadet in the mid 80's the emphasis was the Air Force and getting youths into the Air Force Academy or AFROTC in collge. Yes, we did GT stufff but the main focus was a positive relationship withthe USAF. I guess thathas changed over the years.

You can teach and develop many leadsership skills without ES. ROTC does it everyday.

If you look at how CAP got it's start, I don't see how you can say the foundation isn't ES.  I think CAP was going for a good 20 years or so before cadets came into the picture, at least as we know them today.

As I said, you don't need ES to have a good cadet program.  It's just not a bad way to go.  It fosters all the things CAP is about while providing a sense of accomplishment.  USAF customs and courtesies certainly should be taught to all cadets extensively, but CAP is not ROTC, nor should it become ROTC.

CAP started out to help the war effort in WWII. we are not in a war like that at this time, so to compare the two periods of time is not correct. The world today is nothing like it was in 194

[RiverAux]

CAP started the cadet program during WWII.  While it wasn't our founding mission, it was pretty close. 

[BillB]

The cadet program started in October 1942. It was primarily to develop "pre-military" training as a path to the Army Air Force. The cadet program up to 1950 was a harder program than the current one. Learning morse code, first air certification was a required part of the training. During WW II cadet rank only extended through NCO grades and the grade stripes were the same as the USAAF and senior members.

[flyguy06]

The way I understood it, the cadetprogram was designed to recruit future Senior members in CAP. So, it does go way back to the beginning. And it did have an aviation emphasis on it. thats all I am saying.