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ABUs

Started by MadGrak, September 15, 2011, 05:14:12 AM

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Luis R. Ramos

Simple.

The relation between JROTC and the military is much, much closer than that of CAP and the Air Force...

Flyer
Squadron Safety Officer
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Squadron Emergency Services Officer

PHall

Quote from: AirForceBlue117 on November 17, 2013, 11:31:14 PM
Question: If the DoD has a problem with us having digitalized patterns, why does JROTC have them? They don't do any activities that require them to wear the ABU, ACU, MARPAT, and NWU outside of Raider/PF Competitions, and it would be more appropriate for us to have them (ABU) because of our close connection to the USAF, despite what anyone says. - Nick


Because AFJROTC does not have to comply with AFI 10-2701, we do.

Eclipse

^ This, and in further to that, JROTC doesn't have an adult cadre, nor an operational component.

"That Others May Zoom"

Shuman 14

Quote from: AirForceBlue117 on November 17, 2013, 11:31:14 PM
Question: If the DoD has a problem with us having digitized patterns, why does JROTC have them? They don't do any activities that require them to wear the ABU, ACU, MARPAT, and NWU outside of Raider/PF Competitions, and it would be more appropriate for us to have them (ABU) because of our close connection to the USAF, despite what anyone says. - Nick

Because:

1. They can assert more direct control over the JROTC programs, as the actually instructors are retired military NCOs and Officers.

2. The programs share their parent Service components name (IE Army JORC, Air Force JROTC, etc.).

3. I believe (not 100%) the parent Service components directly supply the class materials and the uniforms for the cadets.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

AngelWings

24 pages of ABU discussion? I'm glad to see CAPTalk hasn't changed at all  ;D

a2capt

Quote from: AngelWings on November 18, 2013, 12:02:47 PM
24 pages of ABU discussion?
Just wait until 39-1 gets released in revision. This thread will be eclipsed in no time flat.

[Only 10 pages for me, less clickery]

Майор Хаткевич

Just look at the NCO topic. Almost double the pages in a much shorter time. Of course we had some 50 other ABU topics closed.

Angus

Quote from: a2capt on November 18, 2013, 05:07:16 PM
Quote from: AngelWings on November 18, 2013, 12:02:47 PM
24 pages of ABU discussion?
Just wait until 39-1 gets released in revision. This thread will be eclipsed in no time flat.

[Only 10 pages for me, less clickery]


If a 39-1 ever gets released.  I'm still on the train of we won't see it any time soon.
Maj. Richard J. Walsh, Jr.
Director Education & Training MAWG 
 Gill Robb Wilson #4030

arajca

Quote from: Angus on November 18, 2013, 07:12:23 PM
Quote from: a2capt on November 18, 2013, 05:07:16 PM
Quote from: AngelWings on November 18, 2013, 12:02:47 PM
24 pages of ABU discussion?
Just wait until 39-1 gets released in revision. This thread will be eclipsed in no time flat.

[Only 10 pages for me, less clickery]


If a 39-1 ever gets released.  I'm still on the train of we won't see it any time soon.
Of course, when it does get released, the CAPTalk servers will explode.

Panache

Quote from: arajca on November 18, 2013, 07:19:53 PM
Of course, when it does get released, the CAPTalk servers will explode.


"And you said I was silly for moving the CAPTalk server into the outside shed. Who's silly now?"

The CyBorg is destroyed

#470
Quote from: Brad on November 17, 2013, 02:31:20 PM
Still have it filed away somewhere for simple post-mortem analysis? I'd be curious to read over it just because.

If I find it, I will PM you with it.  I will not post it here.

Mods: Please delete...unintended duplication.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: PHall on November 17, 2013, 03:58:55 PM
Still riding that horse?   You need to move on man before it makes you bitter about everything.

Actually, no, ladies, fish and gentlemen.

I would have been truly bitter had I shelled out for the whole kit and kaboodle.  As it is, I was only out the cost of the blue Captain's rank slides, a set of metal railway tracks from the local Army/Navy (and those are in use - one on my BBDU cap and gave one to a squadron mate for the same purpose), the blue nameplate and the brushed-silver service coat nameplate (the only item that didn't get used).

If there's any "bitterness," it's because I still can't figure out why we were never told what happened, but moreso that even though there have been a lot of suggestions here on CT to modify/change the "corporate" uniform to something more attractive, it's not going to happen.  I don't post much here anymore (probably a blessing to all of you!  :-X) but I lurk and look and have been reading a lot about the putative 39-1...if it ever comes out (http://tinyurl.com/ifithappens)...and most of what has been revealed deals with the ABU (which I'm actually noncommital on), but I remember reading one quote that said something about "no changes to the corporate uniform."

So I would say it's much more "perplexed" than "bitter."

Quote from: Brad on November 17, 2013, 02:31:20 PM
Still have it filed away somewhere for simple post-mortem analysis? I'd be curious to read over it just because.

If I find it, I will PM you with it.  I will not post it here.


Quote from: PHall on November 18, 2013, 12:09:51 AM
Because AFJROTC does not have to comply with AFI 10-2701, we do.

Which is a bit illogical, given that they are so much more closely connected with the AF...one would think that the AF would hold them to an even higher standard.

Quote from: abdsp51 on November 17, 2013, 04:56:47 PM
Facts or your opinion?

So far, facts, given the absence of any countering evidence from reliable sources like Colonel Lee.

However, I would gladly accept, indeed welcome, such evidence.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Luis R. Ramos

QuoteBy Cyborg:
Which is a bit illogical, given that they are so much more closely connected with the AF...one would think that the AF would hold them to an even higher standard.

The Air Force has probably published a separate instruction for JROTC. AFI 10-2701 is only for the CAP.

Yet I think the fact that only retired or full-time military officers and NCOs can teach in the JROTC program... is because they are already held at a higher standard! No retired National Guard officers or NCOs are allowed to teach in the JROTC, and Reserve were allowed only recently. Again, I think this implies the military does hold JROTC to a higher standard than the CAP...

Flyer
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Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Ned

Quote from: flyer333555 on November 18, 2013, 08:59:40 PM
Yet I think the fact that only retired or full-time military officers and NCOs can teach in the JROTC program... is because they are already held at a higher standard! No retired National Guard officers or NCOs are allowed to teach in the JROTC, and Reserve were allowed only recently. Again, I think this implies the military does hold JROTC to a higher standard than the CAP...

Flyer

Ummm, no.  For a couple of reasons.

First, Guard officers are indeed welcome to serve as JROTC instructors.  (Or at least would be if there wasn't a national hiring freeze for JROTC instructors just now.)  Take a look here. .

Second, the accession, commissioning, and promotion standards are the same for Guard / Reserve / AD.  And have been for a while.  Which kinda makes sense since we all participate side -by-side in the same wars.

But thanks for thinking of us Guard guys as somehow "lower" than our Reserve counterparts.

Ned Lee

MAJ, IN, USA Retired
(Former CA ARNG)

68w20

Quote from: Ned on November 18, 2013, 09:18:50 PM
Quote from: flyer333555 on November 18, 2013, 08:59:40 PM
Yet I think the fact that only retired or full-time military officers and NCOs can teach in the JROTC program... is because they are already held at a higher standard! No retired National Guard officers or NCOs are allowed to teach in the JROTC, and Reserve were allowed only recently. Again, I think this implies the military does hold JROTC to a higher standard than the CAP...

Flyer

Ummm, no.  For a couple of reasons.

First, Guard officers are indeed welcome to serve as JROTC instructors.  (Or at least would be if there wasn't a national hiring freeze for JROTC instructors just now.)  Take a look here. .

Second, the accession, commissioning, and promotion standards are the same for Guard / Reserve / AD.  And have been for a while.  Which kinda makes sense since we all participate side -by-side in the same wars.

But thanks for thinking of us Guard guys as somehow "lower" than our Reserve counterparts.

Ned Lee

MAJ, IN, USA Retired
(Former CA ARNG)

My favorite line:
"Wait, you're deploying overseas?  I thought you were just National Guard."

Luis R. Ramos

#475
Ned-

Yet you forgot this part, and I quote from your link:

Quote
"Gray-Area" National Guard and Reserve members with at least 20 years of creditable service for retired pay and a minimum of 3600 total points for retired pay and who meet all other prerequisites may be considered for AJROTC hard-to-fill-instructor positions.


My own emphasis.

I did not dwell on the reasons, so it was a bad conclusion of your part to say I think lower on Guard!

But Ned, this is for Air Force Blue who posted a question about the DOD having a problem with CAP using digitized patterns and no problem with JROTC use of the same. The fact remains that the military establishment trusts more on active or retired military personnel to wear the uniform in a better way than CAP members; that active or retired military personnel can carry the military tradition better than CAP personnel; and therefore they will allow JROTC personnel unrestricted, more or less, wear of digitized patterns before CAP personnel do.

Flyer
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

NIN

Quote from: Angus on November 18, 2013, 07:12:23 PM
If a 39-1 ever gets released.  I'm still on the train of we won't see it any time soon.

It is my understanding that there is a more recent draft that is awaiting the completion of the photos and then we very well may see a public comment period. I thought the intent was to have the draft reviewed and approved by the CSAG in its December meeting, however, hahaha, joke's on me: CSAG's meeting was 1-2 November. Durrr.

If I don't miss my guess, we'll probably see the draft for comment sometime in the next 30 days.

Don't quote me, of course, but that's a guess.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse

Quote from: flyer333555 on November 18, 2013, 10:28:42 PMBut Ned, this is for Air Force Blue who posted a question about the DOD having a problem with CAP using digitized patterns and no problem with JROTC use of the same. The fact remains that the military establishment trusts more on active or retired military personnel to wear the uniform in a better way than CAP members; that active or retired military personnel can carry the military tradition better than CAP personnel; and therefore they will allow JROTC personnel unrestricted, more or less, wear of digitized patterns before CAP personnel do.

Where are you pulling that?  They have no choice in the matter, it's their uniform, period.

"That Others May Zoom"

Luis R. Ramos

Eclipse-

From what I see.

There are some CAP senior members that do take care to follow CAP regulations regarding uniforms, and D&C properly.

Yourself have posted some messages critical of how some senior members do not follow them.

Flyer
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Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Eclipse

Yes, but that has nothing to do with the how's and why's of our uniforms, or what AD/RES/ROTC wears.

If that were really the case we simply wouldn't' have access to USAF style uniforms at all.

"That Others May Zoom"