When to wear?

[Cool Mace]

Need some help guys!

I want to know if there is a reg saying you can NOT wear your uniform outside of CAP i.e. Wedding, party ect...

I haven't been able to find anything that goes along these lines.

[MIKE]

CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1.

[Cool Mace]

I didn't see anything that says you can't.

So would that make it ok then?

[Майор Хаткевич]

You can wear it when it says you can. If it doesn't say it, then it's not allowed.

When all else fails, ask the commander.

[SarDragon]

OK, let's take a closer look. Do any of the activities you asked about fit any of these categories?

participating in or conducting the cadet program

flying in CAP aircraft (corporate and member-owned aircraft used in
CAP flight activity)

when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local,
wing/region, or national CAP functions

visiting military installations

If not, then wear is not permitted. The CAP uniform is intended to be worn only at CAP events, or while officially representing CAP.

It appears to me that you are trying to justify wearing the uniform, even when given guidance against doing so.

[Cool Mace]

Thank you for your help!

[Cool Mace]

Does anyone know what would happen to a cadet that did wear the uniform outside of CAP?

2b, demotion, stepping down from a command postion?

[davidsinn]

Does anyone know what would happen to a cadet that did wear the uniform outside of CAP?

2b, demotion, stepping down from a command postion?

Drawn and quartered.

[Cool Mace]

Does anyone know what would happen to a cadet that did wear the uniform outside of CAP?

2b, demotion, stepping down from a command postion?

Drawn and quartered.

You really think it should go that far?

[Eclipse]

Does anyone know what would happen to a cadet that did wear the uniform outside of CAP?

2b, demotion, stepping down from a command postion?

The first time its usually "Don't do that again."

[Cool Mace]

Does anyone know what would happen to a cadet that did wear the uniform outside of CAP?

2b, demotion, stepping down from a command postion?

The first time its usually "Don't do that again."

is there any reg agaisnt it?

[Cool Mace]

Does anyone know what would happen to a cadet that did wear the uniform outside of CAP?

2b, demotion, stepping down from a command postion?

The first time its usually "Don't do that again."

Sorry, is there a reg saying what to do if a cadet does do it?

[SarDragon]

No specific reg, but it's certainly within the commander's powers to mete out some sort of punishment.

[Cool Mace]

No specific reg, but it's certainly within the commander's powers to mete out some sort of punishment.

So they couldn't 2b someone or make them step down from a command position since there is not a reg giving what the punishment should be?

[cap235629]

what exactly did you do?

[Cool Mace]

what exactly did you do?

Wore it to a wedding, and a Sr. M. Is on my case about it and trying to get me in trouble.

[SarDragon]

No specific reg, but it's certainly within the commander's powers to mete out some sort of punishment.

So they couldn't 2b someone or make them step down from a command position since there is not a reg giving what the punishment should be?

That's not what I said. Depending on the severity of the offense, that punishment could be anything from, "Don't do that again", to a 2b. It's up to the commander to decide. It is likely that the former would be appropriate in your case, unless you did it after being told not to.

[Eclipse]

what exactly did you do?

Wore it to a wedding, and a Sr. M. Is on my case about it and trying to get me in trouble.

Permission of your unit CC is required by regulation to wear the CAP uniform (in any flavor), outside of CAP activities.

With that said, its not the end of the world, and unless you were defaming CAP, the President, or drove through a
school bus full on nuns with a DUI on the way home, a 3000 PSI stare, along with a "Don't do it again", should be where it ends.

If you are a repeat offender, especially disparaging the uniform, that's a different dynamic.

Is this person hassling you in your command chain or in a position of influence?  Because if he's not I would respectfully tell him to mind his own business.  If he is, fall on your sword and move on.

No one in their right mind would remove a commander or effective staff officer for this alone, and there's no way a 2B for this would ever
survive the MARB.

[JoeTomasone]

Permission of your unit CC is required by regulation to wear the CAP uniform (in any flavor), outside of CAP activities.

Cite please.   Where does it say that the unit CC can authorize uniform wear when 39-1 does not itself permit it?

[TACP]

Permission of your unit CC is required by regulation to wear the CAP uniform (in any flavor), outside of CAP activities.

Cite please.   Where does it say that the unit CC can authorize uniform wear when 39-1 does not itself permit it?

Yeah, there is nowhere in 39-1 in which states unit CC can approve such wear. Reference all of 39-1 table 1.1 for approved wear of CAP and AF style uniforms. The only thing that would really save you is if the wedding was on a military base. Other than that it's not approved by the regs. Not like you'll get more than a lecture, as long as you didn't do anything else, but I wouldn't do it again.

[davidsinn]

Does anyone know what would happen to a cadet that did wear the uniform outside of CAP?

2b, demotion, stepping down from a command postion?

Drawn and quartered.

You really think it should go that far?

That was a late night attempt at humor. That's actually a very grizzly form of execution.

If the cadet did it out of ignorance I'd give him a stern lecture, maybe plant some suggestions in his mind and let him punish himself so to speak.

If he asked and was told no and then went and did it anyway, I would start with removal from position and depending on his attitude possibly go to a demotion as well.

[Spike]

Is it just me or is this very trivial.

[a2capt]

I'm beginning to wonder if the "Ask your CC".. is the fallback that "everyone" cites  ..  *hoping* that CC says "No, you may not." and put an end to it before it starts vs. "Yes,you may... " rather than it turn into a case of coulda, woulda, shoulda.


None the less, it shouldn't be done, however was any harm brought, was any intent done to defame, mis-represent or otherwise cast a dim image on the organization and it's parent organization?


I sorely doubt it.


"Don't do that again. You're dismissed." .. next. CAP has more real problems to deal with. If someone needs to push their time to make a federal case out of this, they are surely misdirected and confused, and have screwed up priorities.


Then again, we can only go by what we have read right here.

[Flying Pig]

Oh good grief.  So he wore it to a wedding.  Did he disrespect the uniform at all?  Was he doing the congo line with a stripper?
If you wore it and looked squared away and were not trying to bring any harm to the organization, take it as a lesson and move on.  If its done, its done.  If your asking to see what kind of trouble you might get in to weigh if you want to wear it then you need to be hammered.  If you wore it thinking you were OK and later fond you were not......like the above post stated....Check first next time and move on.

[lordmonar]

what exactly did you do?

Wore it to a wedding, and a Sr. M. Is on my case about it and trying to get me in trouble.

Good for him.  You were wrong.....not life and death wrong...but wrong none the less.  Can you be 2b'ed or removed from postion?  Yes.  You violated the regulations and you can be 2b'ed or removed from positon for that.

Suck it up.

Tell him you are sorry, that you did not know it was against regulations and that you won't do it again and move on.

[JoeTomasone]

Oh good grief.  So he wore it to a wedding.  Did he disrespect the uniform at all?  Was he doing the congo line with a stripper?

So should we check with you to see which regulations are important and which are optional?   'Cause that's the message I am getting loud and clear from that statement.


Lordmanor hit the nail on the head.

[Angus]

Does anyone know what would happen to a cadet that did wear the uniform outside of CAP?

2b, demotion, stepping down from a command postion?

Drawn and quartered.

If  a Sea Cadet violates their policy they get keel hauled. 

[Hawk200]

Aside from the fact that we have certain rules for uniform wear, a uniform shouldn't be worn to a wedding unless the individual has been specifically asked to do so by a key member of the wedding party.

I think this instance is wrong on more than one count.

[heliodoc]

Yep

Made a simple mistake that some here are droolin about 2B's

Very Trivial ...pretty soon CAPers will worry about people in BDU's and flight suits filling up at the gas station...was it OK with the Sqdn CC??

Wasn't?  2b 'em that 'll teach em!!

These are the reasons some CAPers and their worries about uniforms can get jacked up over some really poor mistakes made by individuals..

What would happen if CAP changed the Form 2B to CAPF   ZZZZZ1234EEO...could anyone rattle that one off for every CAP uni infraction?

Putting all the onus on the Sqdn CC is also pretty weak in my book  when the the even lamer 39-1 carries even less authority and weight but yet CAPers would have nothing else to chirp about.  Could a new CAP uniform be in the offing?   How about ONE uni for everyone?  Could CAP wear it to any function? Standby a for more fun and frivolity over CAP uniform and when and when not to wear them!!

[vmstan]

Is it just me or is this very trivial.

Yes. Seems like a simple "Don't do that again" or "Ask the commander before you do that next time" would suffice.

[Major Lord]

The regulations seem to be written in such a way as to forbid wearing the Uniform to CAP members' funerals or weddings. Would you concur that is what the manual states? ( please RTFM before commenting unless you have it memorized)

Major Lord

[Al Sayre]

I would disagree based on Note 1.

NOTES:
1. The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type
for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national
functions. However, all commanders must be mindful of the objective of attaining a neatly
uniformed appearance at a minimum of personal expense to the individual member and will
consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements.

I would say that as a commander, if the member (or the family) requested a CAP presence; then I certainly could declare that it was a squadron function, and appropriate uniforms could be worn.

[JoeTomasone]

I would say that as a commander, if the member (or the family) requested a CAP presence; then I certainly could declare that it was a squadron function, and appropriate uniforms could be worn.

In that case, hopefully higher HQ agrees with you.   I wouldn't, unless it was a member of the unit getting married and multiple members were invited.

[Spike]

So the Honor Guard comprised of my CAP Cadets for the marriage of two of my CAP members three years ago was illegal?

I am just so confused now.  The manual says one thing, leaves room for interpritation, people throw in thier opinions, I have my own and now we are talking about termination of members for wearing a CAP uniform to a wedding.

39-1 needs to follow Air Force regualtion writing guidelines, and perhaps we should ask CAP-USAF for assistance in this area.  It is appearant that CAP can not get this done. 

[lordmonar]

The regulations seem to be written in such a way as to forbid wearing the Uniform to CAP members' funerals or weddings. Would you concur that is what the manual states? ( please RTFM before commenting unless you have it memorized)

Major Lord

No....in that case you the commander would authorise it as a CAP function.  I would allow that honoring a fallen member of CAP falls into the broad range of acceptable CAP functions.

If the wedding was for a CAP member and the members of the unit were invited.....I would see a CAP uniform being acceptable....again with commander's agreement.

Bottom line....you should not be wearing a CAP uniform at NON-CAP activities.  For the gray areas (social functions, other people's meetings, etc) where members are invited to attend in their CAP capacity ask unit commander for guidance.

[Gunner C]

what exactly did you do?

Wore it to a wedding, and a Sr. M. Is on my case about it and trying to get me in trouble.

Good for him.  You were wrong.....not life and death wrong...but wrong none the less.  Can you be 2b'ed or removed from postion?  Yes.  You violated the regulations and you can be 2b'ed or removed from positon for that.

Suck it up.

Tell him you are sorry, that you did not know it was against regulations and that you won't do it again and move on.

No, not good for him.  He should have pulled him aside (possibly at a not too much later date) and made the correction, quietly and professionally - as a friendly gesture.  Period.  If the "purp" told him to "shine it on" or something equally colorful, then further discussion with the commander is warranted.

What a chicken [Filter Subversion] goofball.  Let's be smart about this.  If someone is doing something that isn't dangerous or embarrassing, then be an adult and be a gentleman.  If someone's openly and consciously violating regulations, then pin their ears back.  I'm kinda tired of CAP members playing "gotcha".  There's a way to go about this and this isn't how it's done.

[SarDragon]

Yep

Made a simple mistake that some here are droolin about 2B's

Not so fast. The OP was the one who brought up a 2b, and I don't recall anyone being hasty to recommend that as the punishment for a first time offense. Someone did mention is as a possibility, which is certainly true, but wasn't insisting that it be used in this instance.

[lordmonar]

what exactly did you do?

Wore it to a wedding, and a Sr. M. Is on my case about it and trying to get me in trouble.

Good for him.  You were wrong.....not life and death wrong...but wrong none the less.  Can you be 2b'ed or removed from postion?  Yes.  You violated the regulations and you can be 2b'ed or removed from positon for that.

Suck it up.

Tell him you are sorry, that you did not know it was against regulations and that you won't do it again and move on.

No, not good for him.  He should have pulled him aside (possibly at a not too much later date) and made the correction, quietly and professionally - as a friendly gesture.  Period.  If the "purp" told him to "shine it on" or something equally colorful, then further discussion with the commander is warranted.

What a chicken [Filter Subversion] goofball.  Let's be smart about this.  If someone is doing something that isn't dangerous or embarrassing, then be an adult and be a gentleman.  If someone's openly and consciously violating regulations, then pin their ears back.  I'm kinda tired of CAP members playing "gotcha".  There's a way to go about this and this isn't how it's done.

You are reading a whole lot into this situation.  Don't know where any of that came from.

Cadet wears his uniform to the wedding.  Senior Member tells him he can't and and he can get into trouble for it.  Cadet comes on to CAPTALK and says "where is it written I can't!?"

That is all there is to the story.

We can assume just as easilly that the SM in question did his dressing down in private in a polite, professional manner and the Cadet in question just can't see the truth of the matter.

We can maybe assume that the cadet was told not to wear the uniform and he did it anyways...and got caught!  Now that changes the scenrio to a whole other sort of bugaboo!

[Cool Mace]

Here's the deal. I wore it to a wedding last year.  I've been in for 8 years, hold the rank of c/Maj and I know how to act when I'm in uniform.

So, I just want to know if this case should get me in trouble, or just a simple "Don't do that again."?

[Gunner C]

Here's the deal. I wore it to a wedding last year. A Sr.M saw it, I never asked if I could wear it, I just did. I've been in for 8 years, hold the rank of c/Maj and I know how to act when I'm in uniform.

So, I just want to know if this case should get me in trouble, or just a simple "Don't do that again."?

I would go directly to your commander and tell him what happened.  When the other guy "tells on you" it will be old news.

• Bad news doesn't get better with age
• C/Maj doesn't have a lower case "C" in it. 

Beat him to the punch and be done with it.

[EMT-83]

As a C/Maj, you should be well versed in the uniform regulations and dealing with your chain of command.

This is something you need to resolve with your commander.

[Cool Mace]

As a C/Maj, you should be well versed in the uniform regulations and dealing with your chain of command.

This is something you need to resolve with your commander.

Yes, I just wanted to see what others thought about this...

[TACP]

You being a C/Maj brings in a whole new aspect. At that point in a CAP cadet career you should know the regs well enough to realize it was wrong, and now this Senior Member has something to stand on. Rather than coming on here to look for defense info, you should crack open the manual, review all info, and go speak with your commander and the individual about forgiveness.

At some point in the ranks 'It's better to beg forgiveness than ask permission' loses all application. You have hit this point, so tread lightly until you get the issue resolved.

[JoeTomasone]

You being a C/Maj brings in a whole new aspect. At that point in a CAP cadet career you should know the regs well enough to realize it was wrong, and now this Senior Member has something to stand on. Rather than coming on here to look for defense info, you should crack open the manual, review all info, and go speak with your commander and the individual about forgiveness.

At some point in the ranks 'It's better to beg forgiveness than ask permission' loses all application. You have hit this point, so tread lightly until you get the issue resolved.

+1  :clap:

[Eclipse]

The regulations seem to be written in such a way as to forbid wearing the Uniform to CAP members' funerals or weddings. Would you concur that is what the manual states? ( please RTFM before commenting unless you have it memorized)

Major Lord

What the KB says (enjoy the argument about it not being regulatory):
"The CAP uniform may be worn to social events related to CAP activities. However, it would not be appropriate to wear the CAP uniform to a school dance or other function which had no specific ties to CAP. Exceptions: Wearing the CAP uniform would be appropriate when participating in posting the colors or similar activities at a school function, attending a military ball or if the school dance were being held on a military installation. There are time restrictions on wearing the uniform after the close of activities.   Civil Air Patrol personnel may, of course, attend church and grave site funeral services of a fellow CAP member in uniform. For additional guidance recommend discussing wear policies with your unit commander."

What 39-1 Table 1-1 says:
Table 1-1. Wearing the Uniform
Members wear the uniform when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions.

Members are prohibited from wearing the uniform more than 1 hour following the close of the activity except for travel time to and from such activities, for which the uniform is specified (seminars, conferences, NEC, or NB meetings).

Members are prohibited from wearing the uniform under any circumstance that would tend to bring discredit or reproach upon the uniform.

When attending social activities or dinners on military installations the wear of a CAP uniform is not restricted.

CAPP 3 "Guide to CAP Protocol"  also has comment about formal events.

I agree with the comments that a Unit CC does not have the authority to override 39-1.  My original comment was more to the
occasion for cadets to wear their uniforms to school, but that would obviously be CAP-related in some fashion.

A civilian wedding at a civilian banquet hall would not really have any CAP connection and therefore the wear of a CAP uniform by anyone would be inappropriate.

If you did it with legit lack of understanding, the 3000 PSI stare should be the end of it.

If you asked in advance and still did it, all bets are off.

Here's the deal. I wore it to a wedding last year.  I've been in for 8 years, hold the rank of c/Maj and I know how to act when I'm in uniform.

A 19 or 20-year old Cadet Major should know better...

[Rotorhead]

Does anyone know what would happen to a cadet that did wear the uniform outside of CAP?

2b, demotion, stepping down from a command postion?

Drawn and quartered.

You really think it should go that far?

That was a late night attempt at humor. That's actually a very grizzly form of execution.

A bear kills and eats you? That would be terrible.

Or did you mean grisly?

[Rotorhead]

Here's the deal. I wore it to a wedding last year.  I've been in for 8 years, hold the rank of c/Maj and I know how to act when I'm in uniform.

...but not when you can wear it, apparently.

[davidsinn]

Does anyone know what would happen to a cadet that did wear the uniform outside of CAP?

2b, demotion, stepping down from a command postion?

Drawn and quartered.

You really think it should go that far?

That was a late night attempt at humor. That's actually a very grizzly form of execution.

A bear kills and eats you? That would be terrible.

Or did you mean grisly?

Yeah Brain hadn't fully engaged yet that early in the morning.

[raivo]

A bear kills and eats you? That would be terrible.

Or did you mean grisly?

Well, being eaten by a bear would probably be both.

[Dracosbane]

And the bear might think some to be overly gristly.   

[Fuzzy]

Hopefully the unit commander will be well versed enough in CAP regulations to follow the correct procedure.

Which in this case I belive would involve cutting a corner off the Cadet Major's dimonds... Four strikes and your a Second Lieutenant.

[Spike]

^ Why??