CAP's Largest Single Mission Save

[Smithsonia]

Press Coverage of Flight 217 Commemoration and follow-on events in 2008/2009 has been most gratifying. Here's a partial list:
1.   http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/dec/03/chadron-state-wrestlers-way-dia-injured-i-25-crash/
2.   http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/dec/04/pilot-savors-lifes-good-things-but-still-feels/
3.   http://www.craigdailypress.com/news/2008/jun/08/i_guess_i_was_destined/
4.   http://www.steamboatpilot.com/photos/2008/jun/8/
5.   http://www.steamboatpilot.com/photos/galleries/2008/jun/08/december_1978_plane_crash/
6.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EyJmkER-d8
7. http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/news/national_media_coverage/index.cfm/cap_media_coverage_4907
8.   www.coloradowingcap.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=89x6prGpSh0%3D&tabid=499&mid=1478
9.   http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/news/cap_news_online/index.cfm/mac_donald_former_colo_wing_commander_passes_4913
10. http://captalk.net/index.php?PHPSESSID=855320e72a7506672c51b624d5d8ac65&topic=6642.0
11. http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/dec/17/myers-remembering-the-rescue-of-flight-217/
12. Additionally, I built a forty square foot exhibit including 65 elements, objects, narratives, pictures, aircraft debris, artifacts, mementos, stories,
      memorials, credits, and appreciations of the Flight 217 incident. This exhibit is at Wings Over the Rockies Air and Space Museum, Denver, CO.
13. There were 3 events regarding this incident and story for which I was project officer:
       13a) Sept. 6th 2008 reunion and debris recovery at Buffalo Pass featuring Matt Kotts and members of the CAP ES Team telling the story of Flight 217
                at the crash site. Eight members from Thompson Valley and BSS Squadrons listened to the story and retrieved debris for the projects below.
       13b) Dec. 6th 2008 a Commemoration including 55 invited guests was conducted and the full story of Flight 217 was told as each survivor and rescuer was able to tell their portion of the story before and among others of the Flight 217 family.
       13c)  Mar. 5th 2009: The Flight 217 Exhibit was unveiled at Wings Over the Rockies. In attendance were survivors,rescuers, members of the Black Sheep Senior Squadron, the press, and CAP invitees. If you'd like to see this exhibit -- the location is here: http://www.wingsmuseum.org/
14. Built a website for Flight 217 contact and story preservation: www.Flight217.Club.officelive.com
15. The exhibit unveiling coverage on Mar. 5th http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_11848192
16. 9News did this story on Monday March 9th:
17. Scott Orr of CAP did this story:  http://denver.yourhub.com/Aurora/Stories/News/General-News/Story~588046.aspx?IsDraft=False
18. Another Denver Post Story: http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_11844780

[Smithsonia]

We had an additional couple of stories posted regarding this the Largest Single Mission Save in CAP History:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VZJhTMURs4
http://www.steamboatpilot.com/news/2009/mar/13/denver_museum_exhibit_tells_plane_crash_story/
Here's the original story from 1978:
http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=111718&catid=188
I think this will be it for awhile.

[Smithsonia]

We have heard that there will be a story in the upcoming May/June Volunteer Magazine regarding this story. Watch for it!

The story is written by Capt. Scott Orr -- a member of CapTalk -- and will include pictures and a recap of the efforts to bring this story to the attention of the Public and the Patrol on the 30th Anniversary of this event.

I thank Steve Cox and NHQ along with members of the Colorado Wing for their dedicated service in this history project and the accompanying publicity.

[us11cav]

Smithsonia,

As a newcomer to this forum (non-CAP, with 1 "find" -- see http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7861.0), I'm very impressed by the work you've done. Rather than debates about what constitutes "Largest" I was hoping to see some discussion about the incident itself, in terms of lessons learned. It seems the combination of a savvy I.C. was important, but a key element to getting there "fustest with the mostest" (to borrow from Nathan Bedfors Forrest) was the civilian, Dave Lindow.

Those of us who worked for 2 1/2 years to find Cessna N2700Q were also aided locals: medevac and tour pilots, private pilots, hikers, and volunteer posse groups, to mention a few. Their efforts--while unsuccessful--helped us narrow the options. This was only accomplished through the careful gathering, analysis, and geospatial placing/archiving of hundreds of pieces of information, including search tracks, aerial photos, ground reports, and even old NTSB crash reports in the SA (several of which "described" elements of what turned out to be N2700Q's final minutes. INFORMATION was everything, and so it surprised me to discover within the various agencies an inconsistency in how it is stored and shared.

For example, FAA tower tapes were destroyed after forty days. (We never got them.) We did--through a back-door--get radar data (which some wonderful CAP pilots used to help us do a coverage evaluation in concert with some FAA and RADES "good guys"), but I understand TRACON data too has a limited shelf-life. And in this forum, someone said CAP dumps its files after four years. Is that true? Does it apply to unsolved cases too?

If so, and if we hadn't gotten a break and found N2700Q, we might have been out there 17 months from now prowling canyons while the shredders down at CAP were destroying information that we had consistently been denied, and which would help us focus our efforts more. (In fact, we never got more than a handful of CAP photos and those--again--through the back-door. As for GPS tracks--if any existed--we got zip. Kudos to the CAP people who gave us what little we had, but why should they have to slip it through the back door? But that's question for the other thread, sorry.)

INFORMATION is everything, even a thirty year old plane wreck, so why--when I can walk down to Best Buy today and buy a 1-Terrabyte harddrive for $160 (on sale, reg $200!), should any public agency destroy anything that could possibly be of value in the future, either in a real search or as a learning aid?

Keep up the good work, sir, and if you could get me an answer on that CAP archive-limit, I'd sure appreciate it.

[Larry Mangum]

CAPR 60-3 specifies the following in regards to Mission records:

1-18. Mission Records. Wing commanders will ensure that records pertaining to each authorized mission are filed at wing headquarters. These records shall be kept in a CAPF 115, Emergency Services Mission Folder, and will include at least the incident commander's log; mission flight plans; personnel, vehicle, and aircraft registers; all CAP and wing forms used; message log; copies of news releases; reports to the controlling agency; and any related information that may be needed in answering future inquiries relating to the mission. Records shall be maintained at least 7 years after the mission is closed or suspended except where they are involved in actual or potential litigation and then they will be retained until that issue is resolved. No mission records will be released outside CAP without prior written approval of NHQ CAP/GC and HQ CAPUSAF/ JA. Please refer to CAPR 60-4, Volume I, Part I, for sample forms and instructions.

This conflicts CAPR 10-2 (4 years), however Legal Eagles have opinioned that the 7 years identified in CAPR60-3 has precedent over CAPR 10-2.

US11CAV, while drives are cheap and so are DVD's and CD's, almost all mission records are paper and CAP wings usually do not have the manpower nor the equipment to digitize mission records.

[us11cav]

Thank you for that information. 

Just for discussion's sake... I'm no attorney (so don't shoot!), but it would seem that in any search--esp. where the parties on-board were not related (i.e., husband/wife/son/daughter)--there might exist at least the possibility of "potential litigation." The question of how that assessment is made in an unsolved search that exceeds 7 years then seems important.

As for the archiving problem, I understand completely, but wonder if an exception could be made for records that are already in digiatal format, i.e., photos and GPS tracks. Understanding that structures/procedures should evolve with--and capitalize on--changes in technology, has anyone in CAP considered revising the manuals?

[Smithsonia]

us11cav;

Hanging on to information makes sense. At a certain point consolidation or discarding of information is bound to occur. Human nature being what it is... presumed dead and gone at a certain time is as good as dead and buried. Perhaps not to the families but certainly to the system. Here's an article about 2 airmen lost in WW2 and just found.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/03/11/us.airman/index.html

If in addition you take the chance-find for Steve Fossett it seems that happenstance and coincidence take over at a certain point. That is just part of human nature too. So how long should we hold onto anything? I don't actually have a good (rational) idea about that.

Your work, your hard steady methodical dedication is an achievement of the first order. These families are lucky to have you on the job.

There are many people missing in America. I wish we could find them all.

[us11cav]

Thanks for the link, Smithsonia. I recall reading about that 2007 find (it obviously had special meaning for us at that time). It seems significant that his remains were found by two people who were at the site "by design."

Your comment "presumed dead and gone at a certain time is as good as dead and buried," rings true and is worth exploring in light of how unsolved searches are put to bed. In the case of N2700Q, the AZ State SAR Coordinator's letter ended with this: "After outlining the intense effort made on the search and with all leads having been cleared, I advised [the families] that I was officially suspending the search efforts for the aircraft. Please contact me if I can be of any further assistance."

The word "suspending" implies that it may be re-opened, say if new leads are acquired. Yet at the same time, our very serious efforts to uncover such leads were hobbled by our inability to obtain the CAPF 115 Emergency Services Mission Folder referred to in CAPR 60-3. Any right-thinking CAP person who wanted to help us would have to break the rules to do so. The door had effectively been slammed in our faces.

Of course it's easy for me to judge because of where I've been. As for the good people reading this, I can only hope that if you're ever faced with the dilemma of "rules versus right," you ask yourself one question:
"What if it were my daughter (or son, or husband, or wife) out there?"

[Smithsonia]

us11cav;
While not directly connected to CAP -- I have a former classmate still MIA from Vietnam. I have never known much about his family as he got married just before leaving the states in 1968. My understanding is his wife remarried and still gets a yearly update from the Pentagon about efforts to find out what happened to her long ago husband. We still wonder about him too.

I was at the Air Force Academy today. They have pictures of graduates who are MIA from Vietnam. I think it is 3 or 4 men -- pictures and bios -- in cased in glass right in front of the lounge at Hap Arnold Hall. No Academy Cadet can enter or exit without seeing this display. The mystery of these men weighs upon every Air Force cadet -- if just a little everyday. I'm sure that those that loved them, their family's and sweethearts wonder everyday.

Maj. General John Curry once said; "It is our duty to find the lost both the living and the dead... so they are lost no more." What a magnificent legacy it is, that makes these words true. It is one of the reasons that I love the Civil Air Patrol. I suppose the same is true for you too. I imagine the same is true for all of us. It is our bond to one another and all those who are lost. It is worth
repeating it in our prayers.

[Gunner C]

As a former IC, I can think of no more difficult duty than telling family members that we're giving up.  I never did, but golly, can you imagine the pain in their hearts that the searchers are giving up when  family members still have so much hope in your hearts?

Sometimes hard decisions have to be made.  We don't have to like it, but it's a decision that must be made nonetheless.

[us11cav]

Gunner C, We understand completely, and appreciate your difficult position.

As someone who's had to "grab the baton" after you guys have done your job (and done it well), I can only ask that you do everything possible to make sure there IS a handoff. That is, give us your mission notes, pics, tracks, (and your thoughts)... We have since learned here IS a process (a convoluted one) that allows for the transfer of mission info to us, but in the case of N2700Q, we were just told "No--It's privileged." Even our FoIA requests were denied.

I would ask you good folks--and I know it's a lot--that in future cases where a  sober, dedicated, family member reaches for that baton, you follow your heart even if it means crossing the regs.

[Smithsonia]

us11cav;

Regarding CAP and FAA Freedom of Information Act requests. I have put in 4 different requests
for some of my history work. None have been denied. All have been stalled, lost multiple times, and generally failed to be supplied. I can't say that there is some prejudice or institutional blundering inside the FAA regarding FOIA requests... but I can think it.

ONE REQUEST WENT UNFULFILLED FOR A YEAR. At the end of a year a functionary type person from the NTSBs IG's office called and asked if I was satisfied with the service I received regarding my FOIA request. I told this lady that I had not received the information requested and spent months without any luck. AND I SWEAR THIS IS WHAT SHE SAID.
" Then you are stating that you no longer need this information?"
"Yes it is too late to include this information in my research": I replied
"Then I'll mark your request as filled and end any further follow-up." is exactly what she said.

I am still flabbergasted by that one.

[Gunner C]

 

Shocked, but not really surprised.

[RiverAux]

Article about this in the new Volunteer (now online) along with a photo of a certain CAP historian...

[Smithsonia]

Riveraux; Thanks for noticing. Thanks for noting.

[Smithsonia]

The man who wrote the article in Volunteer about Flight 217 and the about museum exhibit - the man with whom I worked for 14 months on this project, Capt. Scott Orr - Is undergoing Deep Brain Stimulation Surgery next week to help with his Parkinson's Disease.

A TV station in Colorado Springs CO. is running a series on his travails. 
SEE HERE: http://www.krdo.com/video/23429805/index.html

Last week Scott was award CO/WG POA of the year and awarded best published story for his Volunteer Article.
Keep Scott in your prayers and be thankful for his time and commitment to CAP. He's a very good man.