CAP's Largest Single Mission Save

[Smithsonia]

Read the Story of the Largest Single Mission Save in CAP History:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/dec/03/chadron-state-wrestlers-way-dia-injured-i-25-crash/

The 30th Anniversary is Today.

[Stonewall]

Interesting story.  I printed it out for my file of cool CAP stories.

[RiverAux]

Wouldn't doubt that it is the largest save for an airplane search, but would probably hesitate to say it was our largest ever. 

In Flying Minute Men we claim to have been responsible for locating 363 survivors of ship sinkings or aircraft crashes at sea and reported 91 vessels in distress.   I've got to suspect that some of those may have invovled more than 20 people in one incident. 

[Smithsonia]

RiverAux
Largest SINGLE MISSION Save. One mission number, one ES Team, one long night, 20 people saved. Katrina had more total saves, for instance. BUT it was numerous missions over many days. Numerous Crews. Various locations. Many updated mission numbers. Different assignments, Etc. If you find different let me know.

[RiverAux]

I don't believe I referred to Katrina.  This was in reference to ships sunk by the Germans in WWII.  I bet more than one of them had 20 people on board. 

[Smithsonia]

RiverAux;
No you didn't mention Katrina. I was attempting to give you the benefit of some doubt. When you get that most saved at sea version of yours worked out, post it. I've read a couple of books (which doesn't mean I've got all the information of course.) But I've got more time on my research than you have so far. Don't just idly speculate. Let us know: time, date, place, awards. You know, specific things. I'd be interested. Good luck.

[RiverAux]

The probability that any one of the ships in distress or survivor rescue incidents during WWII involved more than 20 people seems so high to me that any historian should be extremely cautious in making such a claim.  Anyone who makes any sort of claim about something being the "biggest", "most", or "largest" has a very high burden of proof in my book, especially in situations where there is no official system for tracking the statistic in question.   

[Smithsonia]

RiverAux;
I worked quite hard on this item. Well over 3 months of research. The total package of investigation has taken me just about 12 months.
Regards; "Largest Single Mission Save": I checked every year for total-saves. All totals are broken down by State. So, I'd then look deeper into that number and figure if we are talking multiple missions, crews, or what. I could NOT find 1949-1954 and 1958-1962 numbers that were complete and fully differentiated. But I felt like I got pretty much every possibility. But that is my methodology. What you have proposed is an alternative in which you (RiverAux) have no information. In your proposal you have suggested an alternative. You have suggested my research thin... while not doing any research of your own.

I've read the Neprud book. It covers CAP Service during formation and WW2. I wouldn't call it perfect but it's about all there is. It doesn't mention your proposed scenario. "Finds" at sea and rescues by Coast Guard are covered but those aren't "saves." So, I proposed a test of your theory and that you defend it with your research.
Quite frankly this is a direct challenge --- to you.

So let us be clear about your response. I did the research on this subject. You didn't. I've suggested you defend yourself with some intellectual rigor and defend your honor with better facts. And by the way, we're always looking for better facts.

Sorry it comes to this RiverAux, but it's a step up and take the challenge thing or shut-up and move on thing, now. Also - by calling out others it's a good way to get some real history work done and separate the players from the layers.

Actually there are a couple of years in which the numbers you seek might be hiding. BUT, as none of those missing numbers are from WW2... your scenario is unlikely. I've got some numbers (non-CAP numbers) that allow me to draw some conclusions for those missing years. I've had to build an apples to apples comparison model... as WW2 crews had "mission days" and crew-days. Which is different than the way we work today which is a per-event (often multiple mission numbers), per-mission (often multiple crews), per-crew, model. I'll defend my numbers until better one's are presented. I look forward to seeing more numbers. You have none and undoubtedly will produce none and are debasing the debate into to opinionated unsupported blithering.

[RiverAux]

It doesn't mention your proposed scenario. "Finds" at sea and rescues by Coast Guard are covered but those aren't "saves."

Well, how about page 45 where it relates overall statistics for the CAP coastal patrols and says, "The overwater fliers had also located 363 survivors of ship sinkings or aircraft crashes at sea.  They had reported 91 vessels in distress...."  Those are CAP numbers, not Coast Guard.

While no one was recording them as "saves" back then, the rescued survivors certainly would fall in that category today as would probably a lot of the vessels in distress (depending on the specific situation). 

Of course the data from which those statistics were gathered at the time isn't available to my knowledge so teasing apart individual incidents to determine how many were involved in each may not now be possible.  However, "From Maine to Mexico", sites numerous unpublished base histories, that may discuss them in more detail. 

Now, it seems perfectly reasonable that this incident is our largest single mission save in the last 45 years based on the research cited and as such I certainly wouldn't complain about it being advertised as as such or as "one of our largest..." or "the largest known." However, to extend that claim beyond the period for which complete data is available doesn't seem wise to me or should only be done if the article in question admits that the documents examined did not include all of CAP's history. 

[Smithsonia]

RiverAux;
You see the problem. Which is why I limited it to "Largest Single Mission Saves in CAP History." Single has a definition. Mission has a definition. Save has a definition. This fits that. Your example does not. History is arrived at from a best practices from a set of choices. If you have the world's tallest man, for instance... is he from all humans in the universe or is he from all known humans picking from 6 billion people on earth and alive now, or is he the tallest man through all of human history, or he is the tallest known man? The definition and framework must fit the research.

My challenge to you is find me another specific defined example. Confirm this example. Research this example.
And I'll concede your point. Until then you have no point. Just an expression of distrust and personal opinion. This is good for talk radio responses and not good for writing history. 

[smitjud]

This probably isn't my pissing match to get involved in, but I see RiverAux's point very clearly and am not sure why ya'll keep going back and forth on the matter.  Out of 91 ships in distress (we're not talking a ski nautique or anything - we're talking ships), the probability that at least one of them had a crew of 20 plus does seem pretty high.  Why don't you just say "you know what, i can't be certain, but you may have a point" and move on?

[Smithsonia]

Smitjud/RiverAux;
When I see your numbers, I'll concede your point. I've asked for a level of specificity in response. The same specificity as the example that I have offered in the beginning. If there is no corresponding specificity, then there is only possibility. Vacuous possibility is the root of all conspiracy theories too. So let me add that I believe that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. If you find a larger single mission save or you can find the grassy-knoll shooters, I'll change my opinion about both. Until then, I'll rely on research to establish historical fact, which always has a modicum of uncertainty attached. All conclusions in any human activity will exhibit this same uncertainty. As historians we strive to narrow this window of uncertainty. Right now, you are both outside the window uncertainty looking-in, so to speak. Regarding WW2 activities... rescues that would qualify as modern day "saves" are chronicled in the Neprud book. If Neprud would add a bomber crew of 10 saved by a CAP ground team, why would he not add 21 saved from the sea? The answer is most likely that there are no examples.

Crews washing up near mission bases, revived, and retrieved by CAP members are reported. This would certainly qualify as a save by CAP standards of today. I don't think I remember that CAP manned boats to go out and actually retrieve people lost at sea.

We have examples of rescues or saves in sunken ship crews coming ashore in 2s to 5s. So, if you can find me 20 then we have a factual debate. Right now, we've got possibility, and not probability, which is where I think your headed. I believe that 20 washed ashore, or plucked from the sea by CAP swimmers, or retrieved by CAP crews near a mission base would have made the Neprud book, for instance. I didn't find this -- I can only conclude, since Neprud or CAP wouldn't have purposely left it out -- given there are many stories of 1-12 people (at any one time) saved by CAP personnel --  that there are no such reports of 20 or 21 people saved in one single mission -- so I'll stick with the research so far. If either of you know different, I stand by for that new information.

[RiverAux]

I seem to get the feeling that smithsonia is saying that if CAP spotted a vessel in distress or survivors of a sunken ship and didn't personally haul them out of the ocean, then it would not qualify as a save.  That certainly isn't the current standard in use today.  You can get a save based solely on finding a target through aerial observation and then directing others to the site to make the actual rescue. 

Right now, we've got possibility, and not probability

Thats what I've been saying.  Since you cannot prove that this is in fact the largest single mission save, then you shouldn't be making that claim.  All you can say is that it is the largest single mission save for which you can find evidence of.  That is an important difference for anyone to consider when asserting something as a fact.

By the way, I do think you've done a good job in making sure that this significant mission is remembered.  It would be great if more CAP members took such an interest in our history. 

[Smithsonia]

RiverAux;
If you can not disprove my original affirmation. You are providing personal opinion. Your provision is without documentation. Your personal belief is then simply an expression of distrust. There is a most easy way to sway this argument your direction. That of course is not forthcoming. I stand by, in case if that changes. And in this I do not mean your opinion but your actual real historic verifiable proof.

[RiverAux]

All I have been saying the entire time is that your claim is too sweeping based on the research you say you've done. 

There is every possibility that you're right -- you just don't have the facts to back it up.  How is it my responsibility to try to fill in the massive hole in the statistics upon which you've made this claim?  You've said that you do not have complete information for at least 11 years of CAP's history (not counting WWII). 

If I came on here and claimed that the largest mission in CAP's history based on total CAP flight hours was "Mission X", but had no information on mission flight hours for over 15% of our history -- would you accept that claim?  Would you say, go ahead and publish that River even though for all you know there COULD have been a mission in those years you have no records for where we flew more. 

Would you accept a claim that "Indiana Wing has earned more Medals of Valor than any other Wing", if I only had records for 42 wings? 

Would you accept a claim that "Col. Smith was the longest serving commander of Wing X" if I didn't know the the years of service of ALL Wing X commanders through its entire history?

Its up to the author to be able to prove that sort of thing, not the reader.  But, if someone wants to stake their reputation for historical accuracy on incomplete data, I suppose its up to them.  I guess I've said my piece. 

[Climbnsink]

Claiming absolutes is almost always a bad idea.
Certainly seems plausible that in WWII there was a larger single rescue by CAP.  We may never know.   Along with the submarine theme Shipwreck is a great book that has a lot of WWI WWII sub attack stories.

[Smithsonia]

RiverAux;
I have stated an affirmation. It is a positive affirmation. I have stated my sourcing. I have stated my methodology. I have included my analysis of the WW2 information.

You have stated a negative opinion. I have asked for your proof and I received a succession of opinions. You have restated the same sources as I. However, you've not analyzed those sources... just said because if they DIDN'T Write X IT MUST BE SO.
In this case... they didn't say 20 saved SO it must be that 20 were saved and they didn't report or write about it...

Likely, you are unaware that CAP was constantly trying to justify its initial existence. This was so to be more than a flying club of rich draft dodgers. (one printed opinion of the day, not mine) So they reported a staggering number of accomplishments. They also hired and paid for Mr. Neprud to write his book for a PR purpose.

Now lets analyze: Look at the title page. It states: Prepared for The Director of Public Relations of the Dept. of the Air Force Washington DC. Meaning, if there were that many individuals saved in one good mission with a story that was verifiable... it would have more than likely been included in the book than left out of the book. Since it is NOT in the book... one may logically assume that there is no record of such an event. Since this would have been big news, even at the time, and there are no associated press reports of the same... this is a reasonable assumption.  Otherwise we have to argue about an OSS/CIA cover up, I suppose.

So we are left with your opinion. Let me ask you -- Is this an opinion which is likely? More likely? Less likely? Certain? Or rather uncertain and not very likely? It is tough to tell how much you believe in what you are writing.

By the way these are questions historians ponder all day, everyday. On this one I'm still doing research.

Yesterday I met with 8 survivors of Flight 217, the first officer ( only surviving crewman), and 9 ES team members. AND, this is just a small part of my work on this project.

So for my opinion now. I very likely will never distract you from your opinion. As such, I will offer you nothing further. Winning arguments by restating your opinion until the other guy doesn't care what you think... is not an intellectually fulfilling discourse. You are now free to argue alone.

[RiverAux]

So we are left with your opinion. Let me ask you -- Is this an opinion which is likely? More likely? Less likely? Certain? Or rather uncertain and not very likely?

My opinion is that based on the methodology and sources that you've said that you have examined is that this is the largest single mission save since at least 1963, probably is one of the largest single mission saves in CAP history, and is possibly the largest ever.  The facts as you have researched and stated them here don't go beyond that. 

[Smithsonia]

RiverAux;
I take it back. I do need to offer my (11 years without CAP summaries) alternate methodology.
For the years that I didn't have CAP summaries I went to the Air Force Academy Library and looked up SAR numbers. You'll find totals in the US Air Force Almanac (back to 1955). (also once known as AF Yearly Congressional Reports (1947-54.) Sometimes there are totals for both CAP and USAF. But if I had a question I'd look up the monthly report in Air Force News. There you'd find an article like this:

Memorable Rescue: A four-man crew from the 36th Rescue Flight at Fairchild AFB, Wash., saved a 77-year-old man injured in the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness in Idaho last week, and they say it was the most difficult rescues of more than 600 made by the flight. SSgt. Connie Bias reports that they faced several problems: heavy cloud cover, steep and jagged rock surrounding the rescue area, the man's extensive injuries, lack of fuel, and a failed hoist. The steep terrain made the hoist necessary. TSgt. Patrick Hunt, an independent-duty medical technician, worked on stabilizing the man so he could be hoisted, and TSgt. William Wren, flight engineer, worked on the hoist to get it operating at a low speed. The crew and the injured man, Lloyd Johnson, flew at maximum speed to Lewistown, Idaho, where Johnson could be hospitalized.

That way I could quickly go through the stories and check CAP, or no CAP... and move on. So for the missing years, unless the AF has something against us... and I didn't detect this... I felt like I covered that base too. I just looked for a month with high totals (CAP is enclosed in the total) and there were 12-15 examples that showed 20 or more total rescues... and therefore I only had to check that many months of rescue stories. On microfiche it took less than a couple of hours. Check it out, many years are online now. Some years the Almanac breaks out Reserve/Guard/and Auxiliary -- in some years these numbers are combined. Which is why you'll need a 2 step research method.

You can find the last 20 years of the Almanac's online. Although the format online is not complete. I think its more of an excerpted version of the actual Almanac... the copies I have have lots of graphs and charts but online... its mostly narrative. Sometimes the title is under "rescue', "civilian rescues" or "search and rescue." Which is why you have to cross-reference the contemporary story. The AF doesn't typically use the terms find or save in the years that I checked. That said, It has been the same basic publishing format for years with just upgrading color and graphics. Once you get the format... cross referencing goes fast. I'll bet you it wouldn't take you more than a few hours to double check it.

[RiverAux]

I appreciate the explanation and it seems like an entirely appropriate method for the purpose of this particular line of research.  Obviously its not going to tell you how many CAP saves were in that period, but can tell you that there were NOT more than 20 in any given incident. 

It does still leave us with 1942-1946 and I don't see any easy way to be able to come to the same level of certainity for that period.  It is possible that some of the materials in the Hopper Collection, such as the unofficial base histories, may include information on the specific incidents upon which the number of total persons rescued figure mentioned previously was based (wouldn't a big list of dates, places, and # of persons rescued be nice?).  Or one might venture into the records of the military commands that supervised the coastal patrol bases (something I have considered doing) looking for such information. 

While it might be possible to gain some resolution on the coastal patrol rescue numbers, I'm not at all confident that the same could be said of CAP's other activities that were going on in the rest of the states throughout the war since no one, to my knowledge, was actually officially recording saves or anything like that.   For example, if a newspaper credits CAP with rescuing "hundreds" during a flood, would that count absent any other data?  And because a 20+ save hasn't been mentioned in previously written histories, doesn't prove that one didn't happen.  If the guy who wrote the history(ies) knew about it, he probably would have mentioned it -- but maybe he never saw the report on that mission -- we just don't know. 

I'm now a lot more confident in saying that this is probably the largest single-sortie save in CAP's history based on your additional info, but still can't quite go beyond that without finding some definitive records to work from for the period in question. 

I really am rooting for you on this and think you've done a fine job in making sure this important mission is remembered. 

[Smithsonia]

RiverAux;
Let us review the definition of History:
n., pl. -ries.
   1.
         1. A usually chronological record of events, as of the life or development of a people or institution, often including an explanation of or commentary on those events:
         2. A formal written account of related natural phenomena: a history of volcanoes.
         3. A record of a patient's medical background.
         4. An established record or pattern of behavior: an inmate with a history of substance abuse.

You will notice each of the 4 preferred definitions includes the word "record." History is built upon recorded information. Written, verified, chronicled, facts. There may have been any number of wonderful things occur in WW2 but if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it fall, does it make a sound? It may... but without a fallen tree laying upon the ground (an analogy here) to which we can extrapolate or even interrupt... you maintain that there had to have been a tree, because there is not a tree there now. When you have a record, I'll change my mind. Until then please refer to the definition... or get Mr. Webster to change the definition.

While to some this may appear some petty argument between RiverAux and myself, I actually think it more reflects in an accurate way, the struggle of the historian. Sometimes it just a barroom fight as you wrestle with research then kung-fu with colleagues. That said, these shouldn't become grudge matches.

[jimmydeanno]

Mr. O'Brien,

I was discussing this article with another fellow CAP member and we both came to the same conclusion.  We both can't help but admire any CAP member that is willing to give time and effort to research our organizations history.  Both of us had never heard this story before.

My friend noted that as an organization we do a decent job talking about WWII, but after that it is pretty thin.

This was an excellent read and I appreciate your research and effort on this.  Keep up the great work!

[Smithsonia]

Thanks Jimmydeanno;
I imagine, there are similar stories in every Wing. State Historical Societies, Old Newspaper reports, Libraries, CAP Offices with dusty files, and Golden Oldy Members are a good place to start. Among us pick the white haired elders that are past their killer ES charge up mountain days and talk to them. They'll appreciate the attention. They'll tell you everything. They'll hug you for your efforts. If we don't get these stories soon... 67 years of volunteered virtues will be lost. Go get'em historians. There is a rich and largely uncodifed history laying in wait for your eyes to engage. Waiting for your brains to be behold. If you love the Patrol... you'll love the work. It's always a "Find" and some days its a "Save."

[Smithsonia]

Here's our "You Tube" piece regarding the Flight 217 CAP rescue. People, Places, Film from 1978
plus the updated characters and personages. It's not perfect... it's a work in progress.
Click here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EyJmkER-d8&feature=channel_page

And here's an additional CAP Rescue Flight 217 Story:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/dec/17/myers-remembering-the-rescue-of-flight-217/

[wuzafuzz]

Nice video Ed!   :clap:

I embedded it in the Thompson Valley Composite Squadron website, since some of our members accompanied your team to the site.  It's in the TVCS Voice section.    http://www.coloradowingcap.org/thompsonvalley/

If you update the video will it retain the current URL?

[Smithsonia]

Wuzafuzz;
Regarding Flight 217 and the CAP Rescue. Colorado's Thompson Valley Composite Squadron Rocks! AND, we're talking Big Rocks. We never could've gotten our bit and pieces of the aircraft home without you all.

I was fortunate enough to attend the Squadron Christmas Dinner last Thursday and loved it. The Grog ceremony should be mandatory in every Wing. My best always to this fine, and large, and dedicated cadre of CAP men, women, cadets, Von, Jenny, Liz, Eric, and Steve too. 134 Squadron members and counting! Big Rocks indeed.

Yes we will be updating the video. I'll post it when it's ready in a few months.

I don't know if address will remain the same or not. BUT, I'll let you know.

[RiverAux]

Just as an FYI, in 2006-7 Washington Wing got shared credit with the Coast Guard and Navy for 27 saves.  From what I can tell this relates to a mission involving flooding during that period where a CAP squadron assisted in transporting people that had been rescued by helicopter (presumably by USN/USCG) from an airport to local shelters.  Interestingly, we got shared credit for 27 in the missions table but elsewhere in the 2007 CAP annual report it says that CAP actually transported 45. 

If that is what the saves were for, I probably wouldn't have even granted shared credit for a save if it were my decision.  They were already rescued and on the ground before we came close. 

[Smithsonia]

RiverAux;
I am aware of that one and included it in my original research. I made a couple of calls last Spring and talked to the CG PAO (or assistant, I can't remember now) and thought these were not analogous events, which I believe from what you wrote... you came to the same conclusion. I'm not dismissing anything that this group did... just trying to make apples and apples comparisons.

Because of variations over the years in the definitions of saves, finds, rescues, life-saving, etc... these are necessary parts of historical analysis. We'll have to change this definition again when medical marvels of the future can raise the dead through some miracle cure and everyone will have to give all of their "saves" to some medical device manufacturer. Who will get the Ted Williams save, for instance? We know where he is... let's put in for the ribbon now.

Some time ago I heard a story in which a cadet asked for a find ribbon for a standard ELT mission. Apparently this cadet got his/her wish. I don't even know if this story is true... but indicates these variations over time and transitions of definitions. I see you're doing your homework... good for you.

[RiverAux]

thought these were not analogous events, which I believe from what you wrote... you came to the same conclusion

Difficult to say whether they met the criteria you made up for the "largest single mission save" earlier in this thread.  I don't know if this was on a single mission number, done on one day, and done by one team.  Even if they met all of those criteria, because they only got partial credit for basically playing a supporting role in caring for people that had actually been rescued by other agencies, I certainly wasn't going to argue for that being the largest save.  Now, if they had been transporting seriously injured people from the airport to a hospital it would be a different story, but since the folks were going to shelters we can assume that at the point CAP took them over they were not in any danger. 

Some time ago I heard a story in which a cadet asked for a find ribbon for a standard ELT mission. Apparently this cadet got his/her wish.

Of course they did.  Find ribbons are authorized for non-distress finds as well as distres finds (CAPR 39-3 21(d)).

[Smithsonia]

I had included this event in the same file as Katrina, Rita, multi-mission, multi day events. Here's the way it was reported to national in the 2007 Report to Congress:

WA 1,984 442 2,426 28 lives saved see #6

6. Twenty seven saves shared
with the USCG and USN.

(I'm doing some of this via memory as the computer with all the research on this is now dead) )I think this was a multi day event (Dec 3-11 as I recall) with the worst days 12-7/12-8. For the Coast Guard it was multiple missions over several days. I talked to the CG PAO last Spring about this event.

That said, anyone who knows different from the Washington Wing is welcome to chime in. I had not heard the 45 total before. Taking the 27 shared "saves" and giving CAP 2/3rds those saves -- we still have 17 or 18 people. I am not trying to dismiss any Wings good works in this field -- but this event and several others is why I went to the "Single Mission" Save -- evaluation.

[wuzafuzz]

Wuzafuzz;
Regarding Flight 217 and the CAP Rescue. Colorado's Thompson Valley Composite Squadron Rocks! AND, we're talking Big Rocks. We never could've gotten our bit and pieces of the aircraft home without you all.

I was fortunate enough to attend the Squadron Christmas Dinner last Thursday and loved it. The Grog ceremony should be mandatory in every Wing. My best always to this fine, and large, and dedicated cadre of CAP men, women, cadets, Von, Jenny, Liz, Eric, and Steve too. 134 Squadron members and counting! Big Rocks indeed.

Yes we will be updating the video. I'll post it when it's ready in a few months.

I don't know if address will remain the same or not. BUT, I'll let you know.

Responding in PM, but wanted to put out a public thank you for the fine PAO work you are doing!

[PlaneFlyr]

One of the guys mentioned in the story, Jerry Alsum, is CAP's only double Silver Medal of Valor recipient.  He received his first for action during that rescue.  He earned a second SMV in 1982. 

Regardless of whether this event was the largest single defined rescue or not... it's still pretty impressive and reflects very well on CAP.

(RiverAux – FYI Indiana Wing only has 3 BMV and 1 SMV recipients.)

[Rotorhead]

Wuzafuzz;
Regarding Flight 217 and the CAP Rescue. Colorado's Thompson Valley Composite Squadron Rocks! AND, we're talking Big Rocks. We never could've gotten our bit and pieces of the aircraft home without you all.

I was fortunate enough to attend the Squadron Christmas Dinner last Thursday and loved it. The Grog ceremony should be mandatory in every Wing. My best always to this fine, and large, and dedicated cadre of CAP men, women, cadets, Von, Jenny, Liz, Eric, and Steve too. 134 Squadron members and counting! Big Rocks indeed.

Yes we will be updating the video. I'll post it when it's ready in a few months.

I don't know if address will remain the same or not. BUT, I'll let you know.

Responding in PM, but wanted to put out a public thank you for the fine PAO work you are doing!

As the PAO who shot and produced the video, I say, "thanks!"

[tarheel gumby]

Smithsonia,
Thank you for all of your hard work on behalf of the CAP. CAP historians are few and far between.

[Smithsonia]

Tarheel;
Many people worked on these projects. The people who lived the Flight 217 event, of course. But in the retelling, Black Sheep Squadron and Thompson Valley Sqdrn. mostly. But the Colorado Wing has pulled for the Heritage Projects and been good to us also. Capt. Scott Orr, Lt. Col. Jim Jenkins, Capt. Liz Caldwell, Lt. Steve Schneider, Kim Long, Msgt Cynthia Smith, Patti Sampers, Capt. Steve Steinberger, Col. Ed Phelka, Lt. Col. Bill Aceves, Col. Norm Kholos, Lt. Col. Bob Beabout, Lt. Beth Biscardi, Capt. John Mitchell, Gen. Jay Bobick, Col. Gary Tobey, Courtney Walsh, Matthew Buschette, about 30 different cadets, the list is endless but all deserve praise more than myself. Working with each of these people has been a distinct and profound privilege.

In every Wing there are 10 great stories. Ten great stories of leadership, heroism, duty, honor, wisdom, sacrifice, and commitment. Find the best 10 stories of your Wing. Build a culture around those stories and the people of those stories. Take cadets to the sites of those stories. Parade your history alongside our flag. Praise your old men and women for what they've done. Salute their graves and remember them always. Make their stories live for another generation. If we remember our history - we will do our duty.
The CO/WG Heritage Project.

[Smithsonia]

We've spent the last few weeks working on the exhibit at Wings Over the Rockies Air and Space Museum in Denver, CO. Last night we did the layout. It will include the story, maps, pictures of the rescue, pictures of the recovery of plane parts, and the commemoration held on Dec. 6th.

The exhibit cabinet is 7 ft 6in. x 3ft. 10in. We will have recovered parts from the plane, the crushed and battered stroller of Matt Kotts, the wrist watch worn by First Officer Gary Coleman while he was encased in ice (strapped to his seat and still trying to report his location while in delirium), and a Wedding dress that was used to plug holes in the broken planes structure and then reclaimed, cleaned, and worn at the wedding of 2 of the survivors.

We've drawn it up, we've cut the ply wood base, next weeks we start reproducing the pictures and screwing it all together. In three weeks we should begin installation. In early March we'll have another commemoration with survivors and rescuers present. I hope you will visit this tribute dedicated to one of the greatest events in Civil Air Patrol history.

[Gunner C]

Tarheel;
Many people worked on these projects. The people who lived the Flight 217 event, of course. But in the retelling, Black Sheep Squadron and Thompson Valley Sqdrn. mostly. But the Colorado Wing has pulled for the Heritage Projects and been good to us also. Capt. Scott Orr, Lt. Col. Jim Jenkins, Capt. Liz Caldwell, Lt. Steve Schneider, Kim Long, Msgt Cynthia Smith, Patti Sampers, Capt. Steve Steinberger, Col. Ed Phelka, Lt. Col. Bill Aceves, Col. Norm Kholos, Lt. Col. Bob Beabout, Lt. Beth Biscardi, Capt. John Mitchell, Gen. Jay Bobick, Col. Gary Tobey, Courtney Walsh, Matthew Buschette, about 30 different cadets, the list is endless but all deserve praise more than myself. Working with each of these people has been a distinct and profound privilege.

In every Wing there are 10 great stories. Ten great stories of leadership, heroism, duty, honor, wisdom, sacrifice, and commitment. Find the best 10 stories of your Wing. Build a culture around those stories and the people of those stories. Take cadets to the sites of those stories. Parade your history alongside our flag. Praise your old men and women for what they've done. Salute their graves and remember them always. Make their stories live for another generation. If we remember our history - we will do our duty.
The CO/WG Heritage Project.

+1

[Smithsonia]

For those of you following this Largest Single Mission Save in CAP History Museum Exhibit. We will unveil this piece of CAP history March 5th.

I talked to Jerry Alsum and Don Neikerk in the last 24 hours. Both will have their Silver Medals Of Valor which were awarded for this incident on display at this exhibit. Meaning we'll actually have 3 (2 for Jerry and one for Don) on display at Wings Over the Rockies Air and Space Museum in Denver, CO.

Additionally, we'll have a piece of the tail of the Twin Otter which has the distinctive marks of the power line Flight 217 hit, a wedding dress which was used to plug holes in the cabin body so the survivors could make it through the night, the Baby Stroller of Matt Kotts which was retrieved from the crash site 15 after the accident, pictures of the rescue, an abbreviated narrative, a detailed map and time line, pictures of the commemoration, and memorial to the 2 who died.

One of the fatalities was Mary Kay Hardin, her family will attend the unveiling on March 5th at 8PM, several other survivors will be there too, along with the ES team from the rescue and the members of the Black Sheep Squadron. Our Wing Commander is also attempting to make it.

If you are ever in Denver, come to the Museum and see one of the legendary events in Civil Air Patrol History on display.

[Smithsonia]

Should you like to read about this event at the Rocky Mountain News website referenced earlier in this thread... you best get to it. As the Rocky's owners have stated, this 150 year old newspaper will end publication at the end of Feb. '09... we don't know if the website will be supported after that date.

Meaning that story with color pictures and the prestige of a newspaper publication might be lost to history and quite soon.

Click on these locations before the end of February:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/dec/03/chadron-state-wrestlers-way-dia-injured-i-25-crash/

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/dec/17/myers-remembering-the-rescue-of-flight-217/

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/dec/04/pilot-savors-lifes-good-things-but-still-feels/

[Smithsonia]

I finally have the exhibit done and all put together. Non CAP friend Kim Long (who is much handier with tools than I) was instrumental in getting various plane parts and some models of the flying Flight 217 and the crashed version in a diorama... that and putting the vertical stabilizer -- yes, the real vertical stabilizer retrieved from the crash site this past September -- with the creased indentation of the 230,000 volt high tension electrical still imprinted on the aluminum surface into proper view. Pictures, narratives, stories, and memorials taken from the actual rescue, the debris recovery, and the commemoration are all part of the exhibit. That's a lot of information to get into an area 3.75 ft x 7 ft. but we've done the best we know how. About 80 different elements in total.

We will begin the installation in a few hours at the museum. This Thursday night we will unveil this tribute to CAP Emergency Services and the Flight 217 family at Wings Over the Rockies Air and Space Museum in Denver, CO. We are expecting 25-30 squadron members and another 45-55 guests that are survivors, families of those that didn't survive, and rescuers. So roughly 75-80 people total and some local press too.

[Smithsonia]

Press Coverage of Flight 217 Commemoration and follow-on events in 2008/2009 has been most gratifying. Here's a partial list:
1.   http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/dec/03/chadron-state-wrestlers-way-dia-injured-i-25-crash/
2.   http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/dec/04/pilot-savors-lifes-good-things-but-still-feels/
3.   http://www.craigdailypress.com/news/2008/jun/08/i_guess_i_was_destined/
4.   http://www.steamboatpilot.com/photos/2008/jun/8/
5.   http://www.steamboatpilot.com/photos/galleries/2008/jun/08/december_1978_plane_crash/
6.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EyJmkER-d8
7. http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/news/national_media_coverage/index.cfm/cap_media_coverage_4907
8.   www.coloradowingcap.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=89x6prGpSh0%3D&tabid=499&mid=1478
9.   http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/news/cap_news_online/index.cfm/mac_donald_former_colo_wing_commander_passes_4913
10. http://captalk.net/index.php?PHPSESSID=855320e72a7506672c51b624d5d8ac65&topic=6642.0
11. http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/dec/17/myers-remembering-the-rescue-of-flight-217/
12. Additionally, I built a forty square foot exhibit including 65 elements, objects, narratives, pictures, aircraft debris, artifacts, mementos, stories,
      memorials, credits, and appreciations of the Flight 217 incident. This exhibit is at Wings Over the Rockies Air and Space Museum, Denver, CO.
13. There were 3 events regarding this incident and story for which I was project officer:
       13a) Sept. 6th 2008 reunion and debris recovery at Buffalo Pass featuring Matt Kotts and members of the CAP ES Team telling the story of Flight 217
                at the crash site. Eight members from Thompson Valley and BSS Squadrons listened to the story and retrieved debris for the projects below.
       13b) Dec. 6th 2008 a Commemoration including 55 invited guests was conducted and the full story of Flight 217 was told as each survivor and rescuer was able to tell their portion of the story before and among others of the Flight 217 family.
       13c)  Mar. 5th 2009: The Flight 217 Exhibit was unveiled at Wings Over the Rockies. In attendance were survivors,rescuers, members of the Black Sheep Senior Squadron, the press, and CAP invitees. If you'd like to see this exhibit -- the location is here: http://www.wingsmuseum.org/
14. Built a website for Flight 217 contact and story preservation: www.Flight217.Club.officelive.com
15. The exhibit unveiling coverage on Mar. 5th http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_11848192
16. 9News did this story on Monday March 9th:
17. Scott Orr of CAP did this story:  http://denver.yourhub.com/Aurora/Stories/News/General-News/Story~588046.aspx?IsDraft=False
18. Another Denver Post Story: http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_11844780

[Smithsonia]

We had an additional couple of stories posted regarding this the Largest Single Mission Save in CAP History:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VZJhTMURs4
http://www.steamboatpilot.com/news/2009/mar/13/denver_museum_exhibit_tells_plane_crash_story/
Here's the original story from 1978:
http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=111718&catid=188
I think this will be it for awhile.

[Smithsonia]

We have heard that there will be a story in the upcoming May/June Volunteer Magazine regarding this story. Watch for it!

The story is written by Capt. Scott Orr -- a member of CapTalk -- and will include pictures and a recap of the efforts to bring this story to the attention of the Public and the Patrol on the 30th Anniversary of this event.

I thank Steve Cox and NHQ along with members of the Colorado Wing for their dedicated service in this history project and the accompanying publicity.

[us11cav]

Smithsonia,

As a newcomer to this forum (non-CAP, with 1 "find" -- see http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7861.0), I'm very impressed by the work you've done. Rather than debates about what constitutes "Largest" I was hoping to see some discussion about the incident itself, in terms of lessons learned. It seems the combination of a savvy I.C. was important, but a key element to getting there "fustest with the mostest" (to borrow from Nathan Bedfors Forrest) was the civilian, Dave Lindow.

Those of us who worked for 2 1/2 years to find Cessna N2700Q were also aided locals: medevac and tour pilots, private pilots, hikers, and volunteer posse groups, to mention a few. Their efforts--while unsuccessful--helped us narrow the options. This was only accomplished through the careful gathering, analysis, and geospatial placing/archiving of hundreds of pieces of information, including search tracks, aerial photos, ground reports, and even old NTSB crash reports in the SA (several of which "described" elements of what turned out to be N2700Q's final minutes. INFORMATION was everything, and so it surprised me to discover within the various agencies an inconsistency in how it is stored and shared.

For example, FAA tower tapes were destroyed after forty days. (We never got them.) We did--through a back-door--get radar data (which some wonderful CAP pilots used to help us do a coverage evaluation in concert with some FAA and RADES "good guys"), but I understand TRACON data too has a limited shelf-life. And in this forum, someone said CAP dumps its files after four years. Is that true? Does it apply to unsolved cases too?

If so, and if we hadn't gotten a break and found N2700Q, we might have been out there 17 months from now prowling canyons while the shredders down at CAP were destroying information that we had consistently been denied, and which would help us focus our efforts more. (In fact, we never got more than a handful of CAP photos and those--again--through the back-door. As for GPS tracks--if any existed--we got zip. Kudos to the CAP people who gave us what little we had, but why should they have to slip it through the back door? But that's question for the other thread, sorry.)

INFORMATION is everything, even a thirty year old plane wreck, so why--when I can walk down to Best Buy today and buy a 1-Terrabyte harddrive for $160 (on sale, reg $200!), should any public agency destroy anything that could possibly be of value in the future, either in a real search or as a learning aid?

Keep up the good work, sir, and if you could get me an answer on that CAP archive-limit, I'd sure appreciate it.

[Larry Mangum]

CAPR 60-3 specifies the following in regards to Mission records:

1-18. Mission Records. Wing commanders will ensure that records pertaining to each authorized mission are filed at wing headquarters. These records shall be kept in a CAPF 115, Emergency Services Mission Folder, and will include at least the incident commander's log; mission flight plans; personnel, vehicle, and aircraft registers; all CAP and wing forms used; message log; copies of news releases; reports to the controlling agency; and any related information that may be needed in answering future inquiries relating to the mission. Records shall be maintained at least 7 years after the mission is closed or suspended except where they are involved in actual or potential litigation and then they will be retained until that issue is resolved. No mission records will be released outside CAP without prior written approval of NHQ CAP/GC and HQ CAPUSAF/ JA. Please refer to CAPR 60-4, Volume I, Part I, for sample forms and instructions.

This conflicts CAPR 10-2 (4 years), however Legal Eagles have opinioned that the 7 years identified in CAPR60-3 has precedent over CAPR 10-2.

US11CAV, while drives are cheap and so are DVD's and CD's, almost all mission records are paper and CAP wings usually do not have the manpower nor the equipment to digitize mission records.

[us11cav]

Thank you for that information. 

Just for discussion's sake... I'm no attorney (so don't shoot!), but it would seem that in any search--esp. where the parties on-board were not related (i.e., husband/wife/son/daughter)--there might exist at least the possibility of "potential litigation." The question of how that assessment is made in an unsolved search that exceeds 7 years then seems important.

As for the archiving problem, I understand completely, but wonder if an exception could be made for records that are already in digiatal format, i.e., photos and GPS tracks. Understanding that structures/procedures should evolve with--and capitalize on--changes in technology, has anyone in CAP considered revising the manuals?

[Smithsonia]

us11cav;

Hanging on to information makes sense. At a certain point consolidation or discarding of information is bound to occur. Human nature being what it is... presumed dead and gone at a certain time is as good as dead and buried. Perhaps not to the families but certainly to the system. Here's an article about 2 airmen lost in WW2 and just found.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/03/11/us.airman/index.html

If in addition you take the chance-find for Steve Fossett it seems that happenstance and coincidence take over at a certain point. That is just part of human nature too. So how long should we hold onto anything? I don't actually have a good (rational) idea about that.

Your work, your hard steady methodical dedication is an achievement of the first order. These families are lucky to have you on the job.

There are many people missing in America. I wish we could find them all.

[us11cav]

Thanks for the link, Smithsonia. I recall reading about that 2007 find (it obviously had special meaning for us at that time). It seems significant that his remains were found by two people who were at the site "by design."

Your comment "presumed dead and gone at a certain time is as good as dead and buried," rings true and is worth exploring in light of how unsolved searches are put to bed. In the case of N2700Q, the AZ State SAR Coordinator's letter ended with this: "After outlining the intense effort made on the search and with all leads having been cleared, I advised [the families] that I was officially suspending the search efforts for the aircraft. Please contact me if I can be of any further assistance."

The word "suspending" implies that it may be re-opened, say if new leads are acquired. Yet at the same time, our very serious efforts to uncover such leads were hobbled by our inability to obtain the CAPF 115 Emergency Services Mission Folder referred to in CAPR 60-3. Any right-thinking CAP person who wanted to help us would have to break the rules to do so. The door had effectively been slammed in our faces.

Of course it's easy for me to judge because of where I've been. As for the good people reading this, I can only hope that if you're ever faced with the dilemma of "rules versus right," you ask yourself one question:
"What if it were my daughter (or son, or husband, or wife) out there?"

[Smithsonia]

us11cav;
While not directly connected to CAP -- I have a former classmate still MIA from Vietnam. I have never known much about his family as he got married just before leaving the states in 1968. My understanding is his wife remarried and still gets a yearly update from the Pentagon about efforts to find out what happened to her long ago husband. We still wonder about him too.

I was at the Air Force Academy today. They have pictures of graduates who are MIA from Vietnam. I think it is 3 or 4 men -- pictures and bios -- in cased in glass right in front of the lounge at Hap Arnold Hall. No Academy Cadet can enter or exit without seeing this display. The mystery of these men weighs upon every Air Force cadet -- if just a little everyday. I'm sure that those that loved them, their family's and sweethearts wonder everyday.

Maj. General John Curry once said; "It is our duty to find the lost both the living and the dead... so they are lost no more." What a magnificent legacy it is, that makes these words true. It is one of the reasons that I love the Civil Air Patrol. I suppose the same is true for you too. I imagine the same is true for all of us. It is our bond to one another and all those who are lost. It is worth
repeating it in our prayers.

[Gunner C]

As a former IC, I can think of no more difficult duty than telling family members that we're giving up.  I never did, but golly, can you imagine the pain in their hearts that the searchers are giving up when  family members still have so much hope in your hearts?

Sometimes hard decisions have to be made.  We don't have to like it, but it's a decision that must be made nonetheless.

[us11cav]

Gunner C, We understand completely, and appreciate your difficult position.

As someone who's had to "grab the baton" after you guys have done your job (and done it well), I can only ask that you do everything possible to make sure there IS a handoff. That is, give us your mission notes, pics, tracks, (and your thoughts)... We have since learned here IS a process (a convoluted one) that allows for the transfer of mission info to us, but in the case of N2700Q, we were just told "No--It's privileged." Even our FoIA requests were denied.

I would ask you good folks--and I know it's a lot--that in future cases where a  sober, dedicated, family member reaches for that baton, you follow your heart even if it means crossing the regs.

[Smithsonia]

us11cav;

Regarding CAP and FAA Freedom of Information Act requests. I have put in 4 different requests
for some of my history work. None have been denied. All have been stalled, lost multiple times, and generally failed to be supplied. I can't say that there is some prejudice or institutional blundering inside the FAA regarding FOIA requests... but I can think it.

ONE REQUEST WENT UNFULFILLED FOR A YEAR. At the end of a year a functionary type person from the NTSBs IG's office called and asked if I was satisfied with the service I received regarding my FOIA request. I told this lady that I had not received the information requested and spent months without any luck. AND I SWEAR THIS IS WHAT SHE SAID.
" Then you are stating that you no longer need this information?"
"Yes it is too late to include this information in my research": I replied
"Then I'll mark your request as filled and end any further follow-up." is exactly what she said.

I am still flabbergasted by that one.

[Gunner C]

 

Shocked, but not really surprised.

[RiverAux]

Article about this in the new Volunteer (now online) along with a photo of a certain CAP historian...

[Smithsonia]

Riveraux; Thanks for noticing. Thanks for noting.

[Smithsonia]

The man who wrote the article in Volunteer about Flight 217 and the about museum exhibit - the man with whom I worked for 14 months on this project, Capt. Scott Orr - Is undergoing Deep Brain Stimulation Surgery next week to help with his Parkinson's Disease.

A TV station in Colorado Springs CO. is running a series on his travails. 
SEE HERE: http://www.krdo.com/video/23429805/index.html

Last week Scott was award CO/WG POA of the year and awarded best published story for his Volunteer Article.
Keep Scott in your prayers and be thankful for his time and commitment to CAP. He's a very good man.