Lights and Siren?

[raticate1999]

Can lights and sirens used on personal vehicles with CAP license Plates. Specifically New York State?

[Pylon]

Oh God No.

A)  New York State law restricts flashing lights/beacons and sirens to registered emergency vehicles or volunteer emergency responders with certification letter from their department chief.  CAP falls under none of these categories.  On your POV, it would be illegal to use any light other than yellow in NY.

B)  CAP never, ever has a need for emergency warning lights or sirens.  Ever.  We are not first responders.

C)  Emergency vehicle operators go through extensive training and screening in order to operate vehicles using lights and sirens.   It is a serious increase in risk and one must be very familiar with the serious responsibilities which come with operating an emergency response vehicle.   

D) Using lights/sirens also necessitates additional liability/motor vehicle insurance coverage (which CAP does not have and cannot extend to you in your POV).

E) If you are a volunteer firefighter or otherwise legitimately have lights on your POV or another vehicle, it is almost certainly a violation of the law to use it when responding for a CAP mission or other unrelated reasons to why you have the lights in the first place.

F) CAP doesn't need any more reason to be looked upon as "wannabes".

F) Subsection 1:  CAP regulations and most interpretations of the NYS V&T laws accept that you can use a yellow warning light on CAP or POVs for visibility reasons.  However, most of the time, this will come across as even more "wannabe".  Google the word "whacker".

G) This topic has been hashed and rehashed over and over here at CAPTalk.  Use the search tool to read more.  These points summarize quickly the main reasons (beside that it's illegal in NY) that you cannot and should not ever use emergency lights or sirens in relation to Civil Air Patrol business.

[notaNCO forever]

 CAP will not let you use them. My state was willing to let us use them, but CAP said no.

[JoeTomasone]

The only reason to have ANY kind of light on your vehicle is an amber light for cases in which you are on an airport driving on the taxiway/runway (air shows and UDF missions).    I have also used them during RECON exercises when a member was out of the vehicle taking pictures along a busy road (visibility again). 

And yes, restraint is called for.  A mag-mount rotator is fine, no need for the full light bar... 

[A.Member]

Can lights and sirens used on personal vehicles with CAP license Plates. Specifically New York State?

WTFO?!

[Stonewall]

Here is an entire 6 page discussion on the use of lights and sirens in CAP...  <<---Yes, click on that.

[Flying Pig]

Why would you #1?  But to answer, NO.  The public is practically against cops using lights and sirens to get somewhere.  Allowing some CAP guy to roll Code 3 to an ELT would put it over the edge.  Not to mention, when SM Jones smacks into some teenager going through an intersection and kills them, who is going to get blamed???  The Police. The media is going to briefly mention CAP, then go after the police for their Code 3 policy even thought they had nothing to do with it. Trust me dude....you dont want that kind of liability and responsibility as a private citizen.

[JAFO78]

Oh man, I guess I will have to take mine back to Sirenmart for a refund.

[Rob Sherlin]

  As Joe said, the amber ones can come in handy and are legal (I have a magnetic that I've used while changing a flat, or helping another poor stranded driver) for visibilty issues. I wouldn't go with any other color or mounting than that. The only actual personal vehicles I see in Niagara Falls that have fixed lights are volunteer fire fighters, and as said before, the require special permission. As for a siren, well, I can't think of anything that any CAP or any personal vehicle would need one for anyway. You'll even get in big trouble using the PA soundbox ones (you know the ones you get at auto stores that make the cow calls, rooster crows, etc.).

[EMT-83]

Even amber might not be legal without a permit; better check state laws. In Connecticut, any flashing lights (except turn signals) need a permit. Our CAP vans carry authorization from DMV.

[jimmydeanno]

... (you know the ones you get at auto stores that make the cow calls, rooster crows, etc.).

There goes my "la-cu-ca-ra-cha" idea...   

[SAR-EMT1]

WTFO?!

Take it from someone who is a fulltime EMS/Fire type. ---
I DONT HAVE A LIGHTBAR,
I recieved a magmount blue light with my badge and ID card, but it sits in a box somewhere.
A siren.... uh... WTFO?

Either on a CAP van (or worse, putting them on a POV because you are in CAP?!)

NOPE!
NIEN!
NO!
NIETZ!
NYET!
NR!
DANGER WILL ROBINSON!

[winterg]

I have to agree here as someone who has EVOC experience and training.  Allowing ES members of CAP to use flashing lights would be a less than desirable idea.  Unfortunately we all know there are members here and there (rare I hope)  that make decision that make all of us look bad.  Look at the reason we started maroon epaulets!

You just know that some (deleted) would be driving like James Bond responding to an ELT, get pulled over, and tell the cop, "It's OK, I'm with CAP!"

No, Until they offer EVOC in CAP (which they never will (prob a good thing)) it's a non issue.

Do not confuse this issue with the rotating orange beacons on flightline vehicles.

[BigMojo]

no need for the full light bar... 

You have a mini-light bar Joe! I've seen it. 

[Tubacap]

That all being said, I do have a yellow strobe that I am using when I am doing UDF work on the road.  It's amazing how much faster cars slow down when something on top of your vehicle is flashing, no matter the color; as opposed to just hazard lights.  This type of light is only used when on the side of the road though, not when in motion.

You do need to be careful though because some of the mag mount strobes will cause a signal to be sent into the DF equipment giving false readings.

[JoeTomasone]

no need for the full light bar... 

You have a mini-light bar Joe! I've seen it. 

Yep - 2 rotators.    The other Jeep has one rotator on it and it's not nearly as visible.

You do need to be careful though because some of the mag mount strobes will cause a signal to be sent into the DF equipment giving false readings.

A good reason to go with rotators instead of strobes.

[BigMojo]

LEDs...one in the back window and one in the front. Does what I need it to and not obtrusive.

[JoeTomasone]

LEDs...one in the back window and one in the front. Does what I need it to and not obtrusive.

I never did find good LED units that weren't way overpriced versus plain 'ol rotators.

[cap235629]

LEDs...one in the back window and one in the front. Does what I need it to and not obtrusive.

I never did find good LED units that weren't way overpriced versus plain 'ol rotators.

check out speedtechlights.com






Edited by Pylon: Modified to remove outbound link at vendor's request

[KyCAP]

Interesting topic.

There's a difference in having "lights and sirens" and then "driving like a loon" with them on.

Ky state law doesn't get into what is an "First" responder vs "Emergency" responder.  Also, just because you have lights shouldn't also imply "sirens" and the capability or implied reason to drive down the road like a mad man.

However, having the "tools" to get you through an incident or traffic around an incident is another issue.   Most folks will get over in congested traffic if you have red lights, but if you are the yellow tow truck guy then your out of luck.  However, if you put them on, then SOMEONE will screw it up and take off with red lights driving like nutso...  So, we go for the safer and more prudent lines of don't do it...

It is true that CAPR says "yellow" lights are approved, "then check with state law".

So, although I agree that CAP is not the paramedics and fire department the regs conflict with being an "Emergency" responder.   

Also, I am speaking completely with the application of the lights to corporate vehicles and don't think POV should be considered.

Also, in heavy fog like we have in KY like tonight I have been on the road in rural areas with two ground teams where you really didn't have a good reasonable option but to stop in the road and turn on emergency flashers and take a DF reading.   Strobes of "some kind" would be nice... white, yellow, red, purple...

[Eeyore]

I vote for purple strobes on all CAP vehicles

[Flying Pig]

If for some reason you feel the strange need to have flashing lights on your POV, stick with yellow. This reminds me of the Youtube video of those cadets stopping to help people on the Interstate with the Hunt for Red October song in the background.

[A.Member]

If for some reason you feel the strange need to have flashing lights on your POV, stick with yellow...

This whole desire to have flashing lights on a POV is just bizarre to me.   Or maybe I'm the odd duck...

[SarDragon]

I go out a couple of times a month chasing ELTs, and having a flashing yellow light and an air band radios makes it a lot easier to get around the local airports in my 'Burb.

[winterg]

Let's be really different and get rotating beacons with blacklights! Yeah!  Can you imagine the parties?

[Duke Dillio]

I used to have a Vector lightbar on my Jimmy but I was also doing private security at the time (can you say Rent a Pig?)  For CAP, it wasn't so bad to use the search lights on the sides and front.  You could also use the rotators when you are on the tarmac.  I worked with an aircrew one time that found the shape of them helpful from above.  Other than that, not a huge issue.  They were yellow so legal in Colorado at the time.  They were also free so that was a big bonus.  I wouldn't recommend them to everyone but they were a pretty good tool during FTX's when you wanted to light up the whole area like daylight.  Kindof pointless at times though since we don't do a whole lot of night searches.

[MikeD]

Let's be really different and get rotating beacons with blacklights! Yeah!  Can you imagine the parties?

I'm SO there!  That'd be awesome!  :clap:

[Rob Sherlin]

  The revolving magnetic amber light is good enough for me. Besides the other uses (if you work on airfields and such), they add visibility to other drivers if you have roadside trouble (yellow is mostly considered a "caution" color...unlike blue, or red which are used on other "emergency" vehicles). In most states, the amber rotating lights are legal to use, because they havent had too many problems of people using them without common sense. If people start driving down the road with amber lights flashing, there better be a good reason for it other than "wanting to be somebody with authority" (you better have a car in front of you catching fire or something). That's when they start making laws against people using them.

[JayT]

I vote for purple strobes on all CAP vehicles

One of the SM's in my Group has that...........

Anyhow......

I've had good luck with a small yellow flasher ontop of a van, to help establish and maintain air to ground commincation, but beyond that.....

I don't think I've gone hot more then a dozen times at my private ambulance company in the six months I've been working there. It's simply not needed.

I know in my copy of 'Emergency Care in the Streets,' hot responsives are actively discouraged.

It always cracks me up watching the Vollys coming in screaming hot to a hospital with a sprained ankle, while I came in with an ALS crew, with a man in chest pain, with negative lights and sirens.

[arajca]

Be very careful about such generalities. They may very well have a written policy that requires ligths and sirens for all calls - I've seen it done. Also, as you may well know, lights and sirens can make a chest pain response worse by increasing the tension.

[JayT]

Be very careful about such generalities. They may very well have a written policy that requires ligths and sirens for all calls - I've seen it done. Also, as you may well know, lights and sirens can make a chest pain response worse by increasing the tension.

Yeah, but just because policy says "Bring a patient who has a sprained ankle in lights and and sirens twenty miles over the speed limit" doesn't mean the policy isn't stupid.

[wuzafuzz]

Food for thought: A few years ago I saw a black YUGO with full lightbar rolling code three (red lights and siren) down the highway.  NO ONE got out of its way.  All I saw was people with perplexed expressions wondering what the heck.

We do have volunteer fire departments in my neck of the woods, it was probably one of them...I hope.

POV's with emergency lights don't create much respect, if any.  Keep it low-key unless you want to be lumped in with the worst of the wannabe crowd, and drag the rest of us with you in the time proven habit of guilt by association.

Those mag mount yellow lights have their place.  I'm not railing against those.  FWIW, when I worked on airports we only used our flashy lights when we were actually on the runway or taxiway.  Not on the ramp.  When CAP showed up on the ramp with flashing yellow lights and driving stupid we asked them to turn the darn things off and drive safe, or get a ticket.  Funny thing is, pilots drive their POV's on the ramp all the time without fancy whiz bang goodies.  As long as your head is on a swivel and not in your 4th point of contact, all is well.  If you are parked on the side of a busy highway, flash everything you got...lights that is. 

[Flying Pig]

Interestingly enough, here in CA (where pretty much the majority of police tactics and training originate) the California Highway Patrol recommends that officers shut their lights down after the stop and while they are stationary on the shoulder while doing stops at night.
They started doing a study after several officers were killed or injured after being plowed into by drunk drivers, and even some non-DUI drivers.  They found that people were like moths, especially drunks, and were focusing on the flashing pretty lights which caused them to drive right in to the back of the patrol car.  When I do stops on the freeway, I only use my front facing red light and thats it.   An usually after the stop, I shut them off and only use my spotlight.  Most times though, I just leave my steady forward facing red.  No strobes or wild deck lights.

Maybe something there for those of you who feel the need to look like a Christmas tree when you looking for an ELT.

[MIKE]

Why is this thread still going, it was answered in the second post?

[Eclipse]

http://swivelchairpatrol.blogspot.com/



Plenty of this wanna-be madness on YouTube as well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLV028LwY-E

Look around and you'll find a fair number of stories where members, or members who are also affiliated with other Whacker organizations, seriously impacted our credibility, or worse, because of nonsense like this.

A single orange rotator or strobe for safety when off to the side of the road or on an airfield - fine.
Spend more on the lights than on the car, you're a Whacker.  For the record, one major factor in my vehicles not looking like the above (the are bad enough as-is), is the fact that I am married, and my spouse acts as the common-sense
valve.

We are not a first-responder agency, do not require response within the Golden Hour (how could we when its generally 1-2 hours before AFRCC lights us up), so a few minutes in traffic would have no bearing on the success of the mission.

We need to act with expediency and urgency in our response, but not Code 3, or 1 or even 2.

[Flying Pig]

Why is this thread still going, it was answered in the second post?

C'mom MIKE...were just talkin'!  And we've managed not to call each other names!

[PHall]

To those who seem to think that they need a gazillion flashing lights on their vehicle because they do UDF.

Take a look at the utility company (phone company, cable company, water department) vehicles in your area.

They work along the side of the road all the time in any kind of weather and visibility and they have a minimal number of flashing lights.

The phone company truck I drive just has a yellow strobe light mounted on top of the ladder rack.

If the "pros" don't need a light show, then why do you?

[_]

To those who seem to think that they need a gazillion flashing lights on their vehicle because they do UDF.

Take a look at the utility company (phone company, cable company, water department) vehicles in your area.

They work along the side of the road all the time in any kind of weather and visibility and they have a minimal number of flashing lights.

The phone company truck I drive just has a yellow strobe light mounted on top of the ladder rack.

If the "pros" don't need a light show, then why do you?

Don't know where you are but around here the utility trucks have so many lights that you get blinded any time you drive past them at night.

[lordmonar]

Did we not have this conversation in another thread?

Bottom line....what you put on your POV is your buisness and the buisness of your local/state laws.

Using your POV for a mission requires pre-approval by wing wing....hopefully they will limit the do-dads that peope hang on their cards.

If it is leagal....a caution marker on vehicles used in UDF or on flight lines is not a bad idea....but not really necessary.

You need enough lights to be seen a good safe distance.  If that means bars on front and back of your van or a single roating beacon....then so be it.

[pixelwonk]

http://swivelchairpatrol.blogspot.com/

Thanks for the plug.  I'd just like to say that's not my car. 

de,
One-antenna'd, no lights K9QQQ

[Rob Sherlin]

OMG!!!! Considering the vehicle says "Vortex Tracker", I assume this person tracks tornados and such, and a lot of those gadgets are weather related (I hope). But still.............

You guys need a ride to school?.......

No, it's OK Dad,....we'll walk!

[JoeTomasone]

Yeah, that's a little Hamsexy. 

Gotta go drive my kid to school - no joke!

73 de one light (but 3 antennas) AB2M

[ol'fido]

Here in IL volunteer firemen use the blue lights but are not allowed to break traffic laws. One of my cadets' parents went on vacation to FL I believe it was. A cop tried to pull them over and they  just kept going. They thought it was a vol. fireman because all they had was the blue lights. It wasn't until 3 or 4 more showed up as backup that they finally figured out they needed to stop.

[EMT-83]

That means it's OK to ignore a volunteer responding to an emergency?

[JoeTomasone]

That means it's OK to ignore a volunteer responding to an emergency?

In New York, volunteer firemen and EMTs in their POVs get no special standing above other traffic - no running lights, no speeding, and traffic is not required to yield to them although they can (and usually do).   

[Cecil DP]

Keep in mind that the reason many states forbid the use of blue lights on all but official vehicles is that predators have used them to stop cars to rob, molest, and or murder the occupants.

[ol'fido]

Also, many of these volunteers are not trained to drive emergency vehicles at high speed. You get the guys who put it in perspective and drive in a hasty but safe manner and you get the guys that think they are "Squad 51" on  a 10 alarm call out.

[Eclipse]

Click me:  http://tinyurl.com/2cns6q   

[CAPLAW]

I was just in NY and Chiefs run with red lights and Vol. Fire fighters run with blue,   I live in Florida and I would say that 99 percent of people havef given me the right of way when I respond to the station or to the scene .

[Rob Sherlin]

  There's quite a lot of them (volunteer fire fighters) with blue lightbars on their vehicle (they usualy have decals somewhere on the vehicle stating they're volunteer firefighters too). Funny thing is...Out of all the fires I've seen out here in Niagara Falls, I've never seen one of them with their lights on......or at the seen of a fire for that matter. There are some bars here which have seemed to take on a whole "Firehouse" theme that they all seem to flock to though. 

[EMT-83]

You could spend hours (and we have) debating hot vs cold response. In my department, we can only save 30 to 90 seconds responding lights and siren to just about any part of town. We figure it's not worth the risk, and rarely turn the things on. Our EVOC instructors have some spectacular photos of emergency vehicle accidents to drive this point home.

I just thought it was interesting that someone would ignore a blue light because they thought it was only a volunteer firefighter. Yes, it's only a courtesy light, but what if he was on his way to your house?

[JoeTomasone]

I just thought it was interesting that someone would ignore a blue light because they thought it was only a volunteer firefighter. Yes, it's only a courtesy light, but what if he was on his way to your house?

Granted.   I think the story is that they had higher status under the law (motorists had to yield) at one point in time but too many "hot responses" with lights being run, etc caused them to lose that status.

I personally reported two volunteers for reckless driving when I was living in NY.   They darn near caused an accident right in front of me and when I went to talk to them about it they gave me a holier-than-thou attitude.   I communicated this to their Chief, who told them that they no longer had authorization to use their lights. 

[MIKE]

This one has drifted enough.