mission reimbursement questions travel to/from mission base.

[mynetdude]

mynet and CCSE -- In all cases it is the wing that reimburses individual members.  Whether or not it is an AF reimbursed or non-reimbursed mission doesn't matter.  And, anytime you want to get reimbursed, you better make sure ahead of time that Wing will do so or you might end up SOL. 

So in other words, wing does NOT have to reimburse you even on an AF reimburseable mission?

This would make sense if it is non-reimbursed mission, who'd expect to get reimbursed on a non reimbursed mission?

So my question is again: Hypothetically speaking a particular AF funded SAREX mission which is reimburseable, can wing exclude reimbursements and only allow funds to be spent on a particular training item?

Most people live close enough to their squadrons, they don't care about getting reimbursed so that isn't an issue... this is an issue for people who live 60-70 miles (round trip) from mission base.  There is only one other member other than myself who live just as far and we are the only two who need fuel reimbursements to help offset the costs.

If the Ops plan calls for covering the costs of fuel for COV ground vehicles for communications, or UDF/GTs then thats fine I don't have a problem with that.  And besides, ORWG is eliminating comm vans completely from what I heard... so no more spending on mobile comm needs .

[mynetdude]

mynet and CCSE -- In all cases it is the wing that reimburses individual members.  Whether or not it is an AF reimbursed or non-reimbursed mission doesn't matter.  And, anytime you want to get reimbursed, you better make sure ahead of time that Wing will do so or you might end up SOL.

So, for example the CAP personnel from CAWG who traveled out to Nevada to participate in the Fossett Search were reimbursed by CAWG and not the AF?

I don't have a problem with that, but it would seem like the Air Force has more money to spend on reimbursement for these types of things than CAP does. 

While the WING does reimburse the individuals, I believe WING will request funds they had to disburse to the individuals for reimbursement.  That being said, the AF if approved they will reimburse the wing for the costs of reimbursing the individuals.

If wing doesn't do it on time, then that is their problem not ours.  Of course, if it is NOT a AF funded mission then it seems reimbursements do not apply.

[RiverAux]

So in other words, wing does NOT have to reimburse you even on an AF reimburseable mission?

Nope.  I've never had a problem, but then again I've never dropped a surprise $100 gas bill on their desk.  

This would make sense if it is non-reimbursed mission, who'd expect to get reimbursed on a non reimbursed mission?

Wing reimburses members for various CAP costs all the time.  Not unusual.  But, as I mentioned earlier I think it is rare for Wings to have non-AF reimbursed SAREXs.  However, say your squadron decided to get an AFAM for a local exercise.  The squadron certainly could reimburse members their gas costs if they wanted to.  Same thing at the wing level.  

So my question is again: Hypothetically speaking a particular AF funded SAREX mission which is reimburseable, can wing exclude reimbursements and only allow funds to be spent on a particular training item?

Yes.  Thats their job.  Ask ahead of time and you definetely won't have a problem unless their remaining training funds are very low.  

Hmm folks here view this differently, travel to/from mission base is never part of the ops plan.

Wanna bet?  Most every plane and vehicle has to get to the base somehow and those fuel costs are part of the overall budget for the event.  

It is my understanding that no one gets signed in to a mission until you arrive at mission base or your ops plan has a full understanding all personnel will travel from their home to the "scene" rather than mission base then in that theory you would sign in before departing.

No, you should be on the mission number before leaving base.  You may actually sign in at the base, but that sortie from your home unit to the mission base should be in WMIRS already and in some fashion the names of the people in the van should already be in the hands of someone at mission base before you leave.  Local practice would determine exactly how that is done.    

[SJFedor]

mynet and CCSE -- In all cases it is the wing that reimburses individual members.  Whether or not it is an AF reimbursed or non-reimbursed mission doesn't matter.  And, anytime you want to get reimbursed, you better make sure ahead of time that Wing will do so or you might end up SOL.

So, for example the CAP personnel from CAWG who traveled out to Nevada to participate in the Fossett Search were reimbursed by CAWG and not the AF?

I don't have a problem with that, but it would seem like the Air Force has more money to spend on reimbursement for these types of things than CAP does. 

The wording in the regulation is wrong. You give the 108 to Wing, who vectors it up channel to NHQ, who has the AF appropriated funds for training. They send the money back down to Wing, and Wing/HQ disburses the money that you are owed. Some wings will disburse funds prior to recieving them from NHQ, YMMV.

[mynetdude]

So in other words, wing does NOT have to reimburse you even on an AF reimburseable mission?

Nope.  I've never had a problem, but then again I've never dropped a surprise $100 gas bill on their desk. 

This would make sense if it is non-reimbursed mission, who'd expect to get reimbursed on a non reimbursed mission?

Wing reimburses members for various CAP costs all the time.  Not unusual.  But, as I mentioned earlier I think it is rare for Wings to have non-AF reimbursed SAREXs.  However, say your squadron decided to get an AFAM for a local exercise.  The squadron certainly could reimburse members their gas costs if they wanted to.  Same thing at the wing level. 

So my question is again: Hypothetically speaking a particular AF funded SAREX mission which is reimburseable, can wing exclude reimbursements and only allow funds to be spent on a particular training item?

Yes.  Thats their job.  Ask ahead of time and you definetely won't have a problem unless their remaining training funds are very low. 

Hmm folks here view this differently, travel to/from mission base is never part of the ops plan.

Wanna bet?  Most every plane and vehicle has to get to the base somehow and those fuel costs are part of the overall budget for the event. 

It is my understanding that no one gets signed in to a mission until you arrive at mission base or your ops plan has a full understanding all personnel will travel from their home to the "scene" rather than mission base then in that theory you would sign in before departing.

No, you should be on the mission number before leaving base.  You may actually sign in at the base, but that sortie from your home unit to the mission base should be in WMIRS already and in some fashion the names of the people in the van should already be in the hands of someone at mission base before you leave.  Local practice would determine exactly how that is done.   

Sure the ops plan makes provisions for fuel reimbursements for POVs but the travel portion is not... I am told that we are on our own in that regards when traveling to/from base and if the AF assigned mission has budgeted for reimbursements then we as an individual need to ask wing about it to make sure it is covered.

You also misunderstood what I said; yes I am aware that sorties hint... I never said sorties! Going from your home unit to the mission base thats another story... I am talking about travel from your RESIDENCE to mission base... usually this is NOT part of the ops plan (only fuel reimbursement provisions are documented, hopefully).

I don't give wing my $100 gas bills either, but they haven't set a "limit" either AFAIK I have not been told anyway.  I know that if I drive my bigger SUV its not going to be $15 round trip... it'll be closer to $20-$25 round trip and that can add up rather quickly per day.

I just received the ops plan for our next SAREX it doesn't show any fuel costs planning, it just shows that we'll be doing UDF mostly with cadets and seniors are welcome along with aircrews will be allowed to do training in the new G1000 aircraft.  Again it has no information about fuel reimbursements for individuals driving their POVs to mission base which I will find out on Tuesday anyway.

The most I have ever requested for AFAM actuals or training combined in a single month is $40 and that is a spread over several mission numbers and/or days.

[RiverAux]

I am told that we are on our own in that regards when traveling to/from base and if the AF assigned mission has budgeted for reimbursements then we as an individual need to ask wing about it to make sure it is covered.

So, you're wanting to know if you can get reimbursed for fuel from your house to the local squadron hq where you meet the ground team and jump in a COV to go the actual mission base? 

Probably not, though there is nothing in the regs preventing it, though you'd probably get laughed out of the room if you presented that bill.  Instead, I would recommend claiming the milage on your taxes next year. 

On several occassions I have traveled from my home to a mission base in another town for a mission in my POV by myself and been reimbursed for it. 

[mynetdude]

I am told that we are on our own in that regards when traveling to/from base and if the AF assigned mission has budgeted for reimbursements then we as an individual need to ask wing about it to make sure it is covered.

So, you're wanting to know if you can get reimbursed for fuel from your house to the local squadron hq where you meet the ground team and jump in a COV to go the actual mission base? 

Probably not, though there is nothing in the regs preventing it, though you'd probably get laughed out of the room if you presented that bill.  Instead, I would recommend claiming the milage on your taxes next year. 

On several occassions I have traveled from my home to a mission base in another town for a mission in my POV by myself and been reimbursed for it. 

If the bill is reasonable, at least my wing hasn't had a problem reimbursing individuals driving their POVs to mission base. The largest single receipt I have ever submitted is $17 for one vehicle round trip on a single mission #/day.

Obviously the wording in the regulations can be vauge, so at least I was right "may be" (at least from the above various posts) even on AFAM SAREX and actuals the missions are not required to be reimbursed if it were there would be wording saying "wing must reimburse individual fuel costs" if it were required.

[FW]

I've never had a problem with reimbursement for this type of travel.  All properly planned SAREX's should contain a budget line item for POV transportation to/from mission base on the CAPF 10.  COV's and Corp. Aircraft get reimbursed for such transport.  So do Member owned aircraft, when approved.

Of course, it never hurts to ask first.  Then, you can make an informed go/no go decsion.

[mynetdude]

I've never had a problem with reimbursement for this type of travel.  All properly planned SAREX's should contain a budget line item for POV transportation to/from mission base on the CAPF 10.  COV's and Corp. Aircraft get reimbursed for such transport.  So do Member owned aircraft, when approved.

Of course, it never hurts to ask first.  Then, you can make an informed go/no go decsion.

I'm not going to quote much from the PM, like I said before I've never thought to ask as I didn't need to before and several others have been involved longer than I have also said the same thing.  Sure I can understand if the wing is in a crunch, thats fine...

This was a properly planned SAREX I just don't get how they would just leave out POV reimbursements to/from mission base, I don't know how many people in our wing need POV fuel reimbursements however it couldn't have hurt setting aside $500.00 for fuel reimbursements ($200 from our home unit for two members including myself) and I have been on every single SAREX and actual missions I could possibly attend and never had ONE problem until now.

This isn't a big deal, and I'm not going to jump up and down with the big sign that says "Money Tree", just the fact of certain funds were left out now requires me to consider my participation in the future.

I for one in the future won't be surprised if somehow an AFAM mission has no reimbursements authorized...  I will just simply "not exist" anytime that is the case and they will live with that and I can accept that.

And like I said before they wanted to train MS/MOs so having as much finances for the training of MS/MOs was more important, I get that and I don't dispute it.

[Gunner C]

I've never had a problem with reimbursement for this type of travel.  All properly planned SAREX's should contain a budget line item for POV transportation to/from mission base on the CAPF 10.  COV's and Corp. Aircraft get reimbursed for such transport.  So do Member owned aircraft, when approved.

Of course, it never hurts to ask first.  Then, you can make an informed go/no go decsion.

I'm not going to quote much from the PM, like I said before I've never thought to ask as I didn't need to before and several others have been involved longer than I have also said the same thing.  Sure I can understand if the wing is in a crunch, thats fine...

This was a properly planned SAREX I just don't get how they would just leave out POV reimbursements to/from mission base, I don't know how many people in our wing need POV fuel reimbursements however it couldn't have hurt setting aside $500.00 for fuel reimbursements ($200 from our home unit for two members including myself) and I have been on every single SAREX and actual missions I could possibly attend and never had ONE problem until now.

This isn't a big deal, and I'm not going to jump up and down with the big sign that says "Money Tree", just the fact of certain funds were left out now requires me to consider my participation in the future.

I for one in the future won't be surprised if somehow an AFAM mission has no reimbursements authorized...  I will just simply "not exist" anytime that is the case and they will live with that and I can accept that.

And like I said before they wanted to train MS/MOs so having as much finances for the training of MS/MOs was more important, I get that and I don't dispute it.

Training funds are VERY tight.  We need to suck up the gas as much as we can.  Trainers can also optimize by decentralizing the training so it is closer to the members who need it.  That way you cut down on ferry time and vehicle fuel costs.

GC

[mynetdude]

I've never had a problem with reimbursement for this type of travel.  All properly planned SAREX's should contain a budget line item for POV transportation to/from mission base on the CAPF 10.  COV's and Corp. Aircraft get reimbursed for such transport.  So do Member owned aircraft, when approved.

Of course, it never hurts to ask first.  Then, you can make an informed go/no go decsion.

I'm not going to quote much from the PM, like I said before I've never thought to ask as I didn't need to before and several others have been involved longer than I have also said the same thing.  Sure I can understand if the wing is in a crunch, thats fine...

This was a properly planned SAREX I just don't get how they would just leave out POV reimbursements to/from mission base, I don't know how many people in our wing need POV fuel reimbursements however it couldn't have hurt setting aside $500.00 for fuel reimbursements ($200 from our home unit for two members including myself) and I have been on every single SAREX and actual missions I could possibly attend and never had ONE problem until now.

This isn't a big deal, and I'm not going to jump up and down with the big sign that says "Money Tree", just the fact of certain funds were left out now requires me to consider my participation in the future.

I for one in the future won't be surprised if somehow an AFAM mission has no reimbursements authorized...  I will just simply "not exist" anytime that is the case and they will live with that and I can accept that.

And like I said before they wanted to train MS/MOs so having as much finances for the training of MS/MOs was more important, I get that and I don't dispute it.

Training funds are VERY tight.  We need to suck up the gas as much as we can.  Trainers can also optimize by decentralizing the training so it is closer to the members who need it.  That way you cut down on ferry time and vehicle fuel costs.

GC

We don't really centralize our training, not that I can see anyway. Each squadron is able/capable of doing its own training as they see fit/need to. Wing will at times do SAREXs that most if not all squadrons can participate in (they have never excluded any squadrons that I am aware of) which allows squadrons to utilize training funds provided by wing.

Most of the SAREXs I have been on were wing supported/provided it seems, and were funded/reimburseable.  There are only 3 home units in my area closest one being 30 minutes away the one I go to is 45 minutes away and the furthest being on an air guard base is 2hrs away and very hard to get to during the winter months.  There doesn't seem to be much options for decentralizing here unfortunately and 45 minutes of travel time is not really a factor I'd consider. 

[Larry Mangum]

If it is an AFAM and it is an "A" mission and your POV is signed in to the mission, then the fuel and oil consumed in getting to and from the mission are covered as long as it is reasonable. By that I mean if you drive 20 miles to the mission and 20 miles home, then it would be reasonable to pay for a couple of gallons of gas, however if you want me as an IC to approve a CAPF 108 for 18 gallons or so, I am going to question it, if the vehicle was only used to arrive and depart.  AFAM missions that are "B" missions are Air Force mission that are non-funded and expenses are never paid.

If it is a FUNDED SAREX ("A" Mission") versus an UNFUNDED SAREX (Corporate Mission), and you sign your POV, again it should be reimbursable. 

On a side note, a little known fact is that on a real world mission for AFRCC or for AFNSEP, it is possible to get per diem authorized as long as it is done up front and it would be more cost effective for the Air Force to put people up then it would be to fly the aircraft home every night.  The same is probably true for ground teams

[mynetdude]

If it is an AFAM and it is an "A" mission and your POV is signed in to the mission, then the fuel and oil consumed in getting to and from the mission are covered as long as it is reasonable. By that I mean if you drive 20 miles to the mission and 20 miles home, then it would be reasonable to pay for a couple of gallons of gas, however if you want me as an IC to approve a CAPF 108 for 18 gallons or so, I am going to question it, if the vehicle was only used to arrive and depart.  AFAM missions that are "B" missions are Air Force mission that are non-funded and expenses are never paid.

If it is a FUNDED SAREX ("A" Mission") versus an UNFUNDED SAREX (Corporate Mission), and you sign your POV, again it should be reimbursable. 

On a side note, a little known fact is that on a real world mission for AFRCC or for AFNSEP, it is possible to get per diem authorized as long as it is done up front and it would be more cost effective for the Air Force to put people up then it would be to fly the aircraft home every night.  The same is probably true for ground teams

Yeah it would be nice if the Ops plan indicated what type of mission it was, corporate or AFAM rather than it saying funding is only for MS/MO.  Granted if it was a corporate unfunded mission then thats fine I just would like to know that.

I have never charged for more than 6 gallons of fuel depending which vehicle I am driving. The average receipt usually has 3-5 gallons of fuel charged on a single receipt.

overnight stays is another topic, and this is rare that even happens and I can recall only once did our aircrews get stuck overnight at the ICP because the IC wouldn't let the plane return back to its home unit so of course the aicrews ended up spending their own money on hotel costs because it was not part of the ops plan nor was it even considered.  Had it been an actual mission, even if you could get reimbursed for one overnight stay the reimbursement only gives you up to $25 and most hotel costs are $70+

[mikeylikey]

^ I love CAP, I hate spending money.  I understand performing our missions may cost the individual some personal expenses, but when you have to rack up hotel costs, that is where I draw the line.  My services are available as long as my GAS is reimbursed and or they have a place for me to sleep if I have to stay overnight. 

With GAS most likely going to $5.00 before summers out, I along with many others will seriously be rethinking our service to CAP.  I can live with spending near 10-15 bucks per week to get to and from the weekly meeting and an occasional activity, but when it begins approaching $300.00 to go to the Wing HQ for a weekend sarex or SLS or CLC (not counting GAS) that is a NO-GO in my book.  I may get reimbursed for GAS, but to get a hotel room for 2 nights, plus food and add in the highway tolls, it is not worth it.  Sorry, I would love to partake in these things, but I also need to prepare my financial future now when I am young, so I don't have to work until I am 90. 

Man, I could start a whole new thread on the "real" costs of being a CAP member!  Things like what it does to family members, personal finances, friendships etc.

[mynetdude]

^ I love CAP, I hate spending money.  I understand performing our missions may cost the individual some personal expenses, but when you have to rack up hotel costs, that is where I draw the line.  My services are available as long as my GAS is reimbursed and or they have a place for me to sleep if I have to stay overnight. 

With GAS most likely going to $5.00 before summers out, I along with many others will seriously be rethinking our service to CAP.  I can live with spending near 10-15 bucks per week to get to and from the weekly meeting and an occasional activity, but when it begins approaching $300.00 to go to the Wing HQ for a weekend sarex or SLS or CLC (not counting GAS) that is a NO-GO in my book.  I may get reimbursed for GAS, but to get a hotel room for 2 nights, plus food and add in the highway tolls, it is not worth it.  Sorry, I would love to partake in these things, but I also need to prepare my financial future now when I am young, so I don't have to work until I am 90. 

Man, I could start a whole new thread on the "real" costs of being a CAP member!  Things like what it does to family members, personal finances, friendships etc.

I heard being a squadron and wing commander are probably the most expensive "positions" to be in.  My squadron commander spent over $2,000 in transportation, lodging, conferences and such in the course of almost a full year.  That is a lot of money roughly $166.00/month however I know he pays more than that if he is going to planning and ops meetings held by wing.

[mikeylikey]

^ Thats a shame.  Some people can not afford that outright. 

[Al Sayre]

Yep, welcome to my world... I just did my taxes, and claimed just shy of 12000 (yes that's correct, twelve thousand) documented un-reimbursed miles for CAP.

As an IC, I put money for corporate vehicles in the Ops Plan.  If you want to fill up the Squadron Van with people and come to the SAR-EX I will happily approve it.  Most people can afford to drive to and from their squadron.  

I won't approve individual vehicles that have no valid "mission usage" other than hauling their owners to the SAR-EX.  On the rare occasion if someone is "Mission Essential" I might consider it on a case by case basis, or possibly if a squadron member loads up their own van with people or equipment with prior permission.  

The reality is we simply don't have the money in the training budget to pay for everyone's individual mileage even on Air Force Assigned Training Missions.  Our Wing does about 8 SAREX's a year.  If we paid everyones fuel to drive individually, we could afford 2 or 3 at best.

[mynetdude]

Yep, welcome to my world... I just did my taxes, and claimed just shy of 12000 (yes that's correct, twelve thousand) documented un-reimbursed miles for CAP.

As an IC, I put money for corporate vehicles in the Ops Plan.  If you want to fill up the Squadron Van with people and come to the SAR-EX I will happily approve it.  Most people can afford to drive to and from their squadron. 

I won't approve individual vehicles that have no valid "mission usage" other than hauling their owners to the SAR-EX.  On the rare occasion if someone is "Mission Essential" I might consider it on a case by case basis, or possibly if a squadron member loads up their own van with people or equipment with prior permission. 

The reality is we simply don't have the money in the training budget to pay for everyone's individual mileage even on Air Force Assigned Training Missions.  Our Wing does about 8 SAREX's a year.  If we paid everyones fuel to drive individually, we could afford 2 or 3 at best.

I agree, except that most people who live within 5-10 minutes of mission base a lot of times those are the majority of the members at least for us.  fuel reimbursement is really worth it if A) you are taking a COV to the mission base itself from the home unit or B) the individual has to drive 50+ miles from home to mission base which is roughly 3-5 gallons of fuel costing them $10-$15 for each time they do that round trip.  Those piddly $1-$5 reimbursements aren't worth it IMHO.

And yes I am aware I can deduct my milage on my taxes too but thats .14 cents a mile??? I might as well forget it.

[Al Sayre]

$ 0.14 is better than nothing.  If 50 people show up for the SAREX and every one turns in a $20.00 gas ticket, that's $1000.  MSWG is on the consolidated maintenance plan, so the average SAREX costs about $2500 x 8 for a total annual budget of around $20,000 for AFAM Training.  now take $8000 of that away for auto fuel and we are down to $12000, and limited to 5 or six SAREX's at best.  That's before removing any money for other training such as Check Pilot Schools, Form 5/Form 91 flights etc.  The price of avgas is going up just as fast as car gas, and has already eaten away at least 1 planned SAREX for this FY... 

What do you suggest that we as IC's do?

[jimmydeanno]

What do you suggest that we as IC's do?

Lobby to get NHQ to increase the funding so we stop giving money back every year.  From what I understand there is usually about 1 million that is "turned back in" from the appropriated funds we're given.  That's 20K per wing...