CAWG moving 4 aircraft to NVWG & AZWG

[a2capt]

Nah, more smoke and mirrors, from a non-team player who's got it all wrong.

Deposits on hangar space? Wanna buy a bridge to those hangars?

[SarDragon]

No, he said hanger space. Guess he needs a new closet! 

[wingnut]

FUBAR

[Short Field]

   Got to have some place to hang your pipe dreams....

[RiverAux]

For those interested, here is the actual MOU (from the NV Wing web page): http://www.nvwg.cap.gov/documents/CA-NV%20Signed%20MOU.PDF

[SARPilotNY]

The Hemet airplane is N4810N check it yourself on NTC.  It has flown 236 total hours this year (2007).  This places us above the median, there are 17 aircraft in the Wing with less hours.   Our airplane has flown 138.8 Hours on A Missions; 45.6 on B Mission and 51.6 on C Missions.   

Contrary to what some have said about Hemet being a rural area, they must not have noticed the growth in Southwest Riverside County in the last ten years.  Our members come not only from Hemet, but from Temecula, Murrieta, Perris and Lake Elsinore area.   That is a population of hundreds of thousands of people.  In addition the Hemet airport has great weather most of the year.  Thats one of the reasons the Army Air Corps used it as a training base in WWII.

I see from the MOU with Nevada that there is some truth to what's going on.  As far as the Hemet aircraft, just how many hours were A-1 missions?  Those are the ones that count the most since time is what matters on SAR missions.  I know when I was last in California (down south) that ICs are having a hard time finding crews to fly A-1 missions on a beautiful Saturday morning, let alone a Monday afternoon.  If crews are not available to fly the aircraft, the aircraft is out of service.  I remember squadrons begging for an aircraft only to have units with aircraft refusing to fly them of letting other take their aircraft.  Regardless, all wings should look at how the aircraft are used and make required changes.  We are not a flying club, but a S&R organization. 

Tags -MIKE

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

I see from the MOU with Nevada that there is some truth to what's going on.  As far as the Hemet aircraft, just how many hours were A-1 missions?  Those are the ones that count the most since time is what matters on SAR missions. 

There are many good members who might take issue with you when you say A-1 missions are "the ones that count the most".   Those that fly A-3 missions probably would not agree.   Those that fly Cadet O Rides I know would'nt agree.   While pilots flying C17 Missions to stay proficient, using their own money to do so, may agree that "A" Missions are very important, they probably would believe that C-17 Missions also have value, since A missions could not be flown without proficient pilots.   

However, I guess the opinion of California pilots do not count because an anonymous member from New York (who used to be from California) is the judge of what Missions count and which ones dont .   

As far as there being "some truth to the MOU", the only truth is that this agreement has been in effect since 1997 and was slightly modified and re-approved by a Wing Commander that is no longer with us.  It does not give carte blance authority for Nevada, Arizona and Oregon to take over California's duties east of the Sierra's.   It is for emergency situations such as bad weather, etc.    It does not require California to give up four aircraft.   Hemet, Fallbrook and Brackett are not losing their aircraft.   So what part of the original post is true?

[wingnut]

Its all a crock of crap, I along with several other Crew in my squadron we  have flown almost 200 hours each this year, now we include CD, WADs in that as well. but I know the guys down south are at the same missions I fly on so someone is getting bad scuttlebutt (remember what that means)

Our aircraft is broken a lot, so we avail ourselves to other squadron all the time , no problems, sometimes its a race to get to a plane. I think we should have a base like in the Guard with 4 planes on the tarmac and alert crews, in the air in an hour, yeah baby just like we did in SAC.

sirens Blair and up we go into the wild blue yonder

hmm that could be a great song

[a2capt]

I know when I was last in California (down south) that ICs are having a hard time finding crews to fly A-1 missions on a beautiful Saturday morning, let alone a Monday afternoon. 

Interesting observation there and the statistics on that would surprise you, if you backed away and looked at them.. as would the source of this particular scuttlebutt in and of itself. On the latter half of this statement, it's a crock.

[calguy]

I think the point is that A-1 missions are where time counts the most.  If we cannot support the A-1 missions in a timely manner than why are we involved in the S&R world? 
This morning the IC put out at least 4 pages for an aircraft and I understand the mission was turned over the the Sheriff.  Crock?  No fact!
Where are all the aircraft?  Where was Hemet, Brackett and Fallbrook?  Where was everyone else?  I went back over the last couple weeks and noticed several pages for aircraft where WMIRS and the IMU shows no aircraft available.  This past weekend traffic came out that an aircraft from northern California was used for a mission in San Diego.  I think the facts are that our folks have turned into what's called by many to be a flying club.  A-1s are the highest priority.  Fact!

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

The call was made at 2:00 a.m. Conditions were, as I understand it, IFR.  There are not that many pilots who are IFR rated.  Of those that are, many do not feel like risking their lives chasing an ELT in IFR at night. 

There are many that feel that waiting until morning or for the weather to clear is the wisest option, unless we know for a fact there is an airplane missing or down.
No one has a right to judge a pilot for not taking a mission when they feel it is unsafe.   When you get ELT's in the middle of the night, many pilots may have had something to drink the night before and cant fly, or they may be so tired its dangerous for them to fly.  So lets not be so quick to judge why its hard to find pilots at 2:00 a.m. for an ELT mission.

As far as last weekend goes, the Hemet airplane was on an A-3 mission and was being flown by a crew that included some of the Southern California IC's that were trying to run the mission you are talking about.   Our plane was on a mission all weekend.  It is used not only by our squadron, but by many other members from other squadrons as well. 

Lets put the shoe on the other foot, calguy why did'nt you fly that mission last night?   If you are a pilot, then what was your excuse.  If not, who are you to judge those that have to take the risk and the responsiblility.

[calguy]

I will be a judge, because I am not a mission pilot, but I am a pilot.  That was last night, but what about the many weekend and weekday missions in VFR when they cannot find an aircraft?  It still seems odd that most missions are run by the same 2 or 3 ICs.  (2 ICs did almost 50% of all CA missions)
Most UDF teams are the same 3 or 4 people.
Most Aircraft are the same 2 aircraft and crews...Fullerton & Palm Springs.
My basis is closing traffic and awards.
But these guys get all the blame for hogging the missions. 

How did you know that last nights mission was not a crashed airplane?
Julian is where the VOR is, weather was "bad", it is in the hills, sounds like a receipe for a crash to me? 

One in 25 missions end up at an actual crash location (AFRCC Stats).  90 percent of all fire and burglar alarms are false.  Should the police and fire department wait till morning or good weather to respond.  Most chest pains are not heart attacks, should we wait till one goes into cardiac arrest to treat them?  If CAP is the first responder for ELT and missing air plane missions...respond like one, otherwise admit our folks are not up for the mission and give it to the Sheriff!  As a pilot, I would expect when I crash and my ELT goes off that one would respond quickly and professionally.  Remember what happened to the USCG in Florida after a boat sunk and they failed to respond to a MAYDAY call till morning?  That cost them millions!
California is on life support, only being held together by a few, professional members, and yet we have the nerve to criticize them for hogging the missions.

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

I hate to pop your bubble calguy, but CAP is not a First Responder.   

Also, I am not criticizing anybody.  That seems to come from you and others who think like you.   I appreciate what these hardworking volunteers are doing.  However, I am getting tired of people getting this holier than thou attitude and saying because one members volunteer work is not as great as another members then that member or squadron or wing should be the subject of scorn.

We are all volunteers here.   We are not the Police or the Fire Dept.  We do not have to put our lives needlessly at risk for fear of a lawsuit.  As "volunteers" each man decides what he is able to give.   Do not say it is not good enough.  If you are not a Mission Pilot then, I respectfully say become one, then you can make the decision whether to fly in IFR at night or not.   Until then, your complaining about others not doing enough will fall on deaf ears here.

You are the one that started this whole thread with false information.  I would have expected an apology instead of more of the same.   This is my last word on this subject.

[Short Field]

CAWG has modified it's MOU with Nevada Wing so NVWG will cover all of the CAWG east of the top of the Sierras down to Barstow and over to Needles.  AZWG will cover all of CAWG's Imperial County and Riverside County from the Colorado River to an area near Desert Center.  In exchange, CAWG will lose 4 aircraft, 2 to AZ and 2 to NVWG.  .

I thought this thread was twofold - (1) MOUs changing to have NVWG & AZWG cover CAWG areas and (2) aircraft being transferred out of CAWG to NVWG & AZWG.

The NVWG & CAWG MOU just seems to allow NVWG to assist CAWG to cover areas when CAWG is unable and NVWG has assets in close proximity.  Haven't seen the AZWG MOU.  There has been nothing other than the original post that indicates aircraft are changing Wings.  Each Wing determines where they locate their aircraft.  Squadrons don't own the aircraft, they only manage the aircraft assigned to them for the Wing. 

So why has this become a thread that seems to be arguing for or against a particular squadron managing Wing assets?  What is the real agenda?

[Flying Pig]

Hemet is located in Riverside County.  Riverside County Sheriff has a SAR team and 5 helicopters that are always available.  Riverside Police has at least 3 helicopters, Corona PD has a helicopter. CAP isn't the first responder in Riverside County.  In Fresno County we as the Sheriff run any SAR mission in our county. We are asked by approach on occassion to go look at areas where aircraft may have fallen off radar without warning, or a motorist see an airplane "crash" while driving up Interstate 5. What they are seeing is a cropduster landing ona dirt road to reload.

As far as flying IFR at night for an ELT hunt?   ehhhhhh, thats pretty risky.  We fly with NVG's in my department and are till VERY cautious about getting up into the hills for anything other than known life and death.

[calguy]

Most of the firefighters in the US are volunteers, just like CAP.  And yes, we are first responders just like they are.  That is what our MOU with the OES states.  Otherwise the Sheriffs would be taking the missions.   And I do Fly IFR and last night was just a low cloud deck and winds aloft, not a real issue for a Cessna 182 or 206.  As far as moving aircraft, the old wing commander did talk about that and has been tabled like many things for the next commander to address.  As far as the Hemet aircraft, I can only find two A-1 mission flown last year.  I guess that explains the lack of input from your squadron.  I see on your web site that you average several missing airplane missions plus training missions a year.  When was the last one?   I don't recall.  Here is the truth...lets give up the SAR missions. We don't really have any HLS missions and just become a flying club.
That way if I crash, at least the sheriff will respond.  And lets give credit to the folks who pick up the slack for those E(mergecy) S(ervices) volunteers that do take their responsibilities seriously and let those that don't keep they opinions and complaints to themselves.

[PHall]

calguy, for the last time. We Are Not First Responders!

For an ELT search when there is NOT a missing aircraft AFRCC will not even begin a mission until there have been at least two satellite passes. This would be at least one hour minimum, more likely two.

Then AFRCC calls the Point of Contact for the CAP Wing they want to give the mission to.
The POC then tries to find a IC and the IC then puts the pages out for the UDF team and maybe a aircrew, just in case.
This eats up another hour at a minimum.

So, we're at 2 to 3 hours already and no one is in the field yet. Not much of a "First Responce", is it?

And don't forget that here in California, the Sheriff of each county is responsible for all search and rescue in their county.
We operate at the pleasure of the Sheriff of whichever county we're operating in.
They can say we'll handle it, have a nice day and that's it, we're done, at least in that county.

And there have been times in the past when CAP was not allowed to do any search activities in some counties when someone from CAP had PO'd the Sheriff's Department of that county.

[calguy]

Hemet is located in Riverside County.  Riverside County Sheriff has a SAR team and 5 helicopters that are always available.  Riverside Police has at least 3 helicopters, Corona PD has a helicopter. CAP isn't the first responder in Riverside County.  In Fresno County we as the Sheriff run any SAR mission in our county. We are asked by approach on occassion to go look at areas where aircraft may have fallen off radar without warning, or a motorist see an airplane "crash" while driving up Interstate 5. What they are seeing is a cropduster landing ona dirt road to reload.

As far as flying IFR at night for an ELT hunt?   ehhhhhh, thats pretty risky.  We fly with NVG's in my department and are till VERY cautious about getting up into the hills for anything other than known life and death.

The MOU with the OES for an ELT within a county give the county the option to accept the mission, run a joint mission with CAP or let CAP handle the mission.  The MOU requires CAP to start on the mission within 30 minutes, hence the 30 minute rule for WMAOs to find an IC.  In So Cal, more often than not the dozen plus ICs that are available 24/7 turn the mission down and the mission goes to one of the defult ICs on Wing staff.  In Central CA it goes to J.W. in SLO. Go figure!  OES does consider us as first responders.  Many sheriffs don't and elect to handle the missions on their own, like Fresno and many counties in the north.  And yes, CAP is the first responder for ELTs and aircraft missions in Riverside County.  I can't believe a SQCC w/an aircraft would know or understand that.  Maybe that is why our member don't know or care.  Why do you think CAP found the aircraft in the Cajon Pass last week instead of the Sheriff?  I was told that they let CAP handle the whole search.  And who ran the Fossett search in CA?  Yes...it was CAP, not the sheriff.  
Were lucky if you like the search biz in California.  Many wing never get called because the sheriff or state handle all missions and leaves CAP out.  Wonder why?

[calguy]

calguy, for the last time. We Are Not First Responders!

For an ELT search when there is NOT a missing aircraft AFRCC will not even begin a mission until there have been at least two satellite passes. This would be at least one hour minimum, more likely two.

Then AFRCC calls the Point of Contact for the CAP Wing they want to give the mission to.
The POC then tries to find a IC and the IC then puts the pages out for the UDF team and maybe a aircrew, just in case.
This eats up another hour at a minimum.

So, we're at 2 to 3 hours already and no one is in the field yet. Not much of a "First Responce", is it?

And don't forget that here in California, the Sheriff of each county is responsible for all search and rescue in their county.
We operate at the pleasure of the Sheriff of whichever county we're operating in.
They can say we'll handle it, have a nice day and that's it, we're done, at least in that county.

And there have been times in the past when CAP was not allowed to do any search activities in some counties when someone from CAP had PO'd the Sheriff's Department of that county.

Read the MOU, it is/was on the Wing web site.  Does that mean when an airplane drops off RADAR with an ELT and MAYDAY that we are not first responders?  What are we?  What are the sheriff's SAR teams.  The get toned out, find a leader and respond.  Hell...when a burglar alarm goes off in a house and the alarm company calls the residence and by the time the police get dispatched and arrive at a low priority, are they not first responders?
How many folks in aircraft crashes have died while waiting for CAP to ramp up? 
What is acceptable for a response time after notification?  3 hours?  6 hours?
Lets just admit it, we don't want to play with the big boys but don't take away our toys!

[PHall]

calguy, for the last time. We Are Not First Responders!

For an ELT search when there is NOT a missing aircraft AFRCC will not even begin a mission until there have been at least two satellite passes. This would be at least one hour minimum, more likely two.

Then AFRCC calls the Point of Contact for the CAP Wing they want to give the mission to.
The POC then tries to find a IC and the IC then puts the pages out for the UDF team and maybe a aircrew, just in case.
This eats up another hour at a minimum.

So, we're at 2 to 3 hours already and no one is in the field yet. Not much of a "First Responce", is it?

And don't forget that here in California, the Sheriff of each county is responsible for all search and rescue in their county.
We operate at the pleasure of the Sheriff of whichever county we're operating in.
They can say we'll handle it, have a nice day and that's it, we're done, at least in that county.

And there have been times in the past when CAP was not allowed to do any search activities in some counties when someone from CAP had PO'd the Sheriff's Department of that county.

Read the MOU, it is/was on the Wing web site.  Does that mean when an airplane drops off RADAR with an ELT and MAYDAY that we are not first responders?  What are we?  What are the sheriff's SAR teams.  The get toned out, find a leader and respond.  Hell...when a burglar alarm goes off in a house and the alarm company calls the residence and by the time the police get dispatched and arrive at a low priority, are they not first responders?
How many folks in aircraft crashes have died while waiting for CAP to ramp up? 
What is acceptable for a response time after notification?  3 hours?  6 hours?
Lets just admit it, we don't want to play with the big boys but don't take away our toys!

The MOU with California OES is nice, but, OES does not give us the mission, AFRCC does.

Your example of an aircraft dropping off the radar is totally different then my example.
You will notice that I said an ELT when there is NOT a missing aircraft.
An actual aircraft dropping off the radar would be responded to in an entirely different way.
And unless we just happen to have an aircraft up in the area at the time, it won't be us.

It will probably be a law enforcement agency aircraft since they are flying just about 24/7.

If the FAA decides there is a missing aircraft then they will notify AFRCC and the whole alerting process will begin.

You will notice that OES is nowhere in the loop here at all.

When AFRCC does activate a mission, then and only then does OES get involved.

And I don't know who wrote and/or approved the MOU with OES, but the 30 minute requirement is just not realistic for CAP.
The 129th Rescue Wing at Moffett can probably meet the 30 minute goal, but they have an alert aircraft and an alert crew standing by too.