How many missions does it take to keep you highly motivated?

[RiverAux]

I, like many seniors, joined CAP to primarily perform ES mission work and I have found that as actual CAP missions have declined, so does my motivation.  After a certain number of years, I'm also just not that interested in SAREXs -- sure they're good for keeping up basic CAP skills, but they're not that terribly interesting or challenging anymore. 

I'm not an adrenaline junkie and I certainly don't wish misfortune on others, but personally its difficult to say it is worth my time to focus on CAP work when it seems like we're down to only one "real" mission a year in my Wing.  Sure, there are opportunities for some limited CD work and some non-ES flying for other agencies, but that doesn't do it for me. 

Perhaps I've been jaded by my early CAP career where I was going on ELT missions once or twice a month.  But, I think I probably would want the opportunity to go on 3-5 missions a year to feel like I was really making a contribution. 

And by "mission" I mean pretty much any sort of ES work primarily, but if you want to include non-ES work for other agencies in your definition thats fine.  Its not like the poll is going to be scientifically valid anyway. 

[BFreemanMA]

I haven't yet participated in a mission outside of SAREXs, but I'm holding out for the call!

[NC Hokie]

I get my warm fuzzy feeling from working with cadets, but if there were no cadets in CAP anymore I'd need at least 1-2 missions per year to feel like my time was being well spent.  I might even go a year or two with no missions, but anything after that would make me rethink my membership.

[a2capt]

It's not (lack of) missions, it's the GOBNs. Thats the force de-multiplier.

[vento]

^^^ What A2 said!

[Eclipse]

Any number more then 0 helps, but more this:

It's not (lack of) missions, it's the GOBNs. Thats the force de-multiplier.

Wasted time.

So.

Much.

Wasted.

Time.

[Devil Doc]

I have been in CAP for 2+ Years, I have not been on a Single Misson. However, I have been on Numerous SAREX, Local Trainings, MERSAR, and want to do more trainings. My biggest issue for the Missions are this: Other Squadrons can get the people ready faster than we can, and or have more, and it leaves us in the dark. We have had missions pretty much 20-30 mins from us, because of other units who are bigger, in the game, and know more people get called out. It seems like a lot of members can call out of work on a moments notice and go to a mission. Some of us, cannot just leave work, or call out because of a mission. Other than that, I like what we do.

[Storm Chaser]

Any number more then 0 helps, but more this:

It's not (lack of) missions, it's the GOBNs. Thats the force de-multiplier.

Wasted time.

So.

Much.

Wasted.

Time.

Are you talking about CAP or CAP Talk?

[Flying Pig]

I flew in CAP for about 8 years.  I did 2 ELT searches, searched for Steve Fossett, searched for a downed power glider in the Sierras with my mentor Bosshawk , my good friends from my Sq.....  I swear, on top of the excitement of doing a real mission.... Ive never flown and laughed so hard in my life. My long time observer from Sq112 knows what Im talking about.   My bread and butter was CD.  I never put in for it... but I have a silver clasp on my CD ribbon.  CAP is all about location location location.  I had a blast in CAP flying.  If I could find a way to recreate those days I would rejoin yesterday.  But it was a constant struggle to maintain the motivation even with that going on for me. 

[JeffDG]

It's not (lack of) missions, it's the GOBNs. Thats the force de-multiplier.

Force divisor

[Storm Chaser]

I flew in CAP for about 8 years.  I did 2 ELT searches, searched for Steve Fossett, searched for a downed power glider in the Sierras with my mentor Bosshawk.   My bread and butter was CD.  CAP is all about location location location.  I had a blast in CAP flying.  If I could find a way to recreate those days I would rejoin yesterday.

I agree. I've been in three wings, two groups and multiple squadrons. Location can make a big difference. I don't think CAP is perfect, but I still enjoy what I'm doing... very much. I also like the people I work with. That also makes a huge difference.

If you don't like what you're doing, if you think CAP is a waste of time, if you don't feel you're making a difference or making a valuable contribution or being challenged enough, then perhaps you're in the wrong job, the wrong unit or the wrong organization. If that's the case, then make a change or move on, but whatever you do, don't waste your time or the time others or be a hindrance to the organization. CAP is meant to be fulfilling and fun; if it's not, you're not in the right place.

[a2capt]

Force divisor

Actually, I meant force de-motivator, but this works too.

When I initially joined, it was the ES that was the main attraction, the training available, and similar aviation opportunities. After a while, as NHQ became cold to the member owned assets, and the GOBN creep, I said ... "these people are CP's best friend", because I drifted towards the Cadets.  Forget the Wing level CP, but right there at the unit.

There's been times when politics have strained that, but when the Cadets come to you and thank you for what you're doing, that makes it all worth being the buffer, the insulator, etc.

It was a great 13 years. We'll see what the next year brings as politics once again take the front seat.


Let's see if my faith in the system is upheld.

[JacobAnn]

If you don't like what you're doing, if you think CAP is a waste of time, if you don't feel you're making a difference or making a valuable contribution or being challenged enough, then perhaps you're in the wrong job, the wrong unit or the wrong organization. If that's the case, then make a change or move on, but whatever you do, don't waste your time or the time others or be a hindrance to the organization. CAP is meant to be fulfilling and fun; if it's not, you're not in the right place. [/quote]

Well stated.  I feel there is both good and bad to everything in life.  If the good outweighs the bad you stick with it.  If the bad outweighs the good you make the necessary change.

[Al Sayre]

One of the great dilemmas in the ES world is not having enough missions to keep volunteers interested.  We often hear the complaint "We never get any real missions, all we do is train."  However, if you stop and think about it, in order for us to have a real mission, someone has to crash an airplane or some area has to have some sort of disaster, and no one really wishes for those.  So in my humble opinion, not having any real missions is a good thing.  The point is that we are ready when the emergency does happen.

[Eclipse]

^ That's the "Fireman's Dilemma", the problem with it applying to CAP is that there are PLENTY of
real-world missions that happen all around it that CAP should be involved in but isn't.

The fireman just stand at the curb and watch the house burn.

[THRAWN]

^ That's the "Fireman's Dilemma", the problem with it applying to CAP is that there are PLENTY of
real-world missions that happen all around it that CAP should be involved in but isn't.

The fireman just stand at the curb and watch the house burn.

Truth! CAP ES has been so target fixated on SAR that the organization really has forgotten about DR. If there was a move to taking a larger role in that field, the planes would seldom stop flying....

[Private Investigator]

^ That's the "Fireman's Dilemma", the problem with it applying to CAP is that there are PLENTY of
real-world missions that happen all around it that CAP should be involved in but isn't.

The fireman just stand at the curb and watch the house burn.

Correctamundo. The fireman does not quit and become a policeman and then quits that when nothing is going on there either. 

[Flying Pig]

You'd have to work in a pretty sleepy town to compare CAP to being a fireman or policeman     Lets face it.... its different when its your paid job to be ready.  Asa volunteer, if you've gone years without doing anything real world, I think its more than reasonable to look at your time invested and ask if its a worthwhile investment.  Heck...I was flying in CA on a regular basis and decided it wasn't worth it anymore.  If I got to a location that was active Id probably give it another go.  Where I am now..... I just don't see much going on.   Sunset flights over the harbor is their main mission...... even though I already do it regularly in the helicopter ... and our marine patrol unit does it all day long.....  I think we have the most heavily patrolled quiet harbor in the nation. 

[Eclipse]

The real frustration comes when you read the papers, know you could have helped, but can't get in the
game because the leadership's focus is in the wrong place, the assigned staff officers aren't doing their
job or the line on the chart is vacant.

As an example - >ANY< missing persons situation where the agencies involved are requesting
help from the general public and CAP isn't involved should be viewed as an abject failure and
call to action, but is generally not even noticed.

[Flying Pig]

True.  As long as the unit is up to responding.  If your unit really wants to get called for every missing person call.  I don't know how many thousands Ive responded to and for the most part there is just nothing to do unless you want CAP members in BDUs walking up and down the streets with a photo only to have the person show up a couple hours later not even knowing anything was wrong.  I know people complain that they never get called.... but Ive seen plenty of instances where CAP gets called and its like getting people to volunteer to be a training aid at dental school.   Suddenly all the people who complain nothing ever happens have BBQs to attend, cant get off work or just don't answer.  They want to missions to happen on meeting nights.  Aside from that, don't call me Im a volunteer. 

In the end, most public safety agencies don't really care to work with outside volunteer organizations.  My agency in particular already has over 100 of its own volunteers.  Ive been in 4 LE agencies in 2 states and it seems to be a theme.  Each agency had a very well trained volunteer force who had specific jobs.  Like I said before CAP is about location, location, location.  Even in CAWG, CAP has a very active yet delicate relationship with LE for the counter drug mission. I don't mean delicate as barely holding on... CD is very engrained in LE in CA. Thats why CD is so selective.  But all it would take is for one idiot to be let into the mix to unravel years of relationships. 

Its been said 1000x.  CAP needs to meet with local public safety with an IDENTIFIED need.  Don't go to them and ask what you can do to help.  I think thats one of the biggest mistakes CAP makes.  Go to them having already identified a niche where you can fit in.   And like Ive said before..... the one time you are called and you don't respond, you may as well go back to hosting drill and ceremonies courses for seniors because you wont be called again. 
Depending on where you are in the country.... CAP may not be the place for you.  You may be better suited becoming a volunteer fireman or a reserve deputy sheriff to get the action you are searching for. 

[Eclipse]

^ Pretty much spot on.  Most agencies I've dealt with (ARC, EMAs, CERTs) have a need for warm bodies, but are not interested in
a separate, ancillary command structure outside their own - it adds too much overhead to what is generally a simple situation.

Most are willing to accept the situation when discussing air assets, if for no other reasons then an airplane isn't something
most local agencies can gin-up, for free, very quickly, but for "people", they prefer their own people with their own training,
reporting direct to them.

This is why I keep harping on the need for NHQ to get moving on establishing CAP as part of the doctrine at the highest
levels of 3/4 letter agencies.  We're funded that way, we need to respond that way.

It should simply be a matter of accepted course that when FEMA, NOAA, or military agencies (as a start) are brought in,
localized CAP assets are on the call sheets.  Of course 3/4 letter agencies, themselves, have their own job, budgets, and
fiefdoms to protect, so you have to deal with that as well.

In a lot of ways, CAP is too big and capable for its own good.  Scaled to the logical readiness purported in the brochures,
CAP would wind up impacting a lot of jobs and walled villages, so its left with the "toaster leavins" when an agency is
either too small to respond, or the incident is so large that anything with a pulse is needed.

Also, a frustrated +1 on all those people who whine about never getting called, and then don't respond when
they are called, especially those who constantly say "I'd be there for a real-world..." and then aren't.

[Storm Chaser]

Also, a frustrated +1 on all those people who whine about never getting called, and then don't respond when
they are called, especially those who constantly say "I'd be there for a real-world..." and then aren't.

That's so true. We were asked to respond to a REDCAP recently and putting teams together was extremely challenging, even though we had plenty of people trained and qualified. Even getting folks to respond to the 4-5 ELT searches a year we have in our AOR is not as easy as one would think.

[Майор Хаткевич]

We recently qual'd a whole lot of GTLs. We have a SAREX coming up. It is like pulling teeth to get people to show up and get the UDF/GTM training. UDF - the basic of the basics. If you want to help on a REDCAP, that's the best point to start, and can be done in a WEEKEND. But a lot of people talk about wanting the TRAINING (Not even missions), and yet it's hard to get them there.

This is why my main CAP focus is Cadet Programs. Typically they are there because they want to be. There's also plenty going on, to the point where it's sometimes a game of catching yourself missing small things here and there, and striving to get better all the time.

[Eclipse]

Also, a frustrated +1 on all those people who whine about never getting called, and then don't respond when
they are called, especially those who constantly say "I'd be there for a real-world..." and then aren't.

That's so true. We were asked to respond to a REDCAP recently and putting teams together was extremely challenging, even though we had plenty of people trained and qualified. Even getting folks to respond to the 4-5 ELT searches a year we have in our AOR is not as easy as one would think.

This also gets back to properly reporting manpower, normalizing the membership, and terminating or patronizing the empty shirts.

In my wing, less then 1/3rd of the membership does the majority of the heavy lifting, and most of those people
are dual-tracked, working in both of CAP's actual missions (CP & ES*).  Schedule training or an encampment the same
time or within a few weeks of each other and you have a real issue.

* Yeah, I said it, CAP has two missions.  99.9% of AE is encompassed within, and would not exist without, CP or ES...

[RiverAux]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone wanting to participate in some minimal number of actual missions in order to personally justify their investment in time and money in order to respond to such missions.  Yes, someone else has to be having a very bad day in order for CAP to be called and no one wishes such bad days to occur, but if they're not, then the need for our services may not be there.

Say you were in an organization dedicated to responding to catastrophic meteor hits on the Earth.  Is it worth dedicating your spare time to volunteering with that organization if in all likelihood you're never going to get called as these come around only on a geological time scale?  Same exact issue.

But, different people are going to have different tolerances for waiting for actual missions. 

CAP does need to take this into account.  While the common problem is not having enough missions to keep people happy, in certain areas and times there may be too many missions for the people available. 

[Eclipse]

CAP does need to take this into account.  While the common problem is not having enough missions to keep people happy, in certain areas and times there may be too many missions for the people available.

Agree completely, especially in that the rhetoric in the marketing collateral implicates that CAP is a highly active ES asset,
when in fact it's hit-or-miss no matter what wing you are in and there and many units where ES is no factor, even to the
point of being disdained.

[A.Member]

. disregard

[srosenberg]

Something to think about and a dose of perspective. 911 was one of the reasons I joined. If you joined for the emergency services there are times that it is used to find ELTs in garbage dumps and in hangared aircraft.  There are going to be the ground searches through the swamps and pricker bushes to be called off when the target is found a county away. That will happen and cost you effort and time for not much in return.

Consider this question. The next 911 type national crisis. Do you know where your place is in the response, or would you care to watch it on TV feeling completely helpless? Dwight D. Eisenhower said about D-day that the plan was worthless, but the planning was crucial. Being in CAP is similar. If you don't feel that you are doing enough, dig in, double down and train. Enjoy the comradery. Learn how to work effectively with those who train with you and get to know them to accomplish the real thing.

If you are the kind of person who is gnashing teeth because there are no redcaps around... stay tuned. CAP will need you support the mission with your training, leadership and confidence.

[lordmonar]

It is a volunteer gig guys.

And volunteers are people.....each with a "thing" that make them tick.

Bottom line is......if you are not satisfied with the "Pay off" you receive from all your time, effort and money....then it is time to take a break.   

Transfer to patron status or just go ghost for a while.

Asking how many missions do you need to keep motivated is not really a PC sort of question.   The only "good" answer is zero....otherwise you are hoping that someone gets into trouble so that you can feel good about your commitment to this program.

I get it.....that you may not feel needed.....that happens.  If that is what you are experiencing....maybe you need to look for other avenues to fulfill your needs.

And this is not a crack on anyone.    It is basic human nature.   If you are not having fun, don't feel like you are contributing, or doing a lot of training for no reasons......it is okay to say "Thanks guys, it was fun.  I'm going to go look elsewhere."

[Spaceman3750]

I train others to stay motivated. It keeps my skills sharp and I pass them on to someone else, who may later use them to save lives. It's about more than just ES though. I staff NESA not because I get to teach SAR, I do it because I get to use SAR as the context in which our cadets learn land navigation, critical thinking, follower ship, leadership, and basically get an experience their peers will only dream of from their couch in front of the Xbox.

[Private Investigator]

Something to think about and a dose of perspective. 911 was one of the reasons I joined. If you joined for the emergency services there are times that it is used to find ELTs in garbage dumps and in hangared aircraft.  There are going to be the ground searches through the swamps and pricker bushes to be called off when the target is found a county away. That will happen and cost you effort and time for not much in return.

Consider this question. The next 911 type national crisis. Do you know where your place is in the response, or would you care to watch it on TV feeling completely helpless? Dwight D. Eisenhower said about D-day that the plan was worthless, but the planning was crucial. Being in CAP is similar. If you don't feel that you are doing enough, dig in, double down and train. Enjoy the comradery. Learn how to work effectively with those who train with you and get to know them to accomplish the real thing.

If you are the kind of person who is gnashing teeth because there are no redcaps around... stay tuned. CAP will need you support the mission with your training, leadership and confidence.

Very good points. Welcome aboard. 

[Eclipse]

The next 911 type national crisis. Do you know where your place is in the response..."

Does CAP?

[Private Investigator]

The next 911 type national crisis. Do you know where your place is in the response..."

Does CAP?

Does anyone?   

[JeffDG]

How many missions does it take to keep me motivated:  3

ES
CP
AE

[pierson777]

How many missions does it take to keep me motivated:  3

ES
CP
AE

That's AWESOME!! :clap:

For some it's just one mission: CP.
For others it's also just one mission: AE.
And thanks to a select few, it's not even one "mission".  Rather they duties fall within CAP's three missions, yet many members plug away year-after-year doing these tasks without participating in CAP three missions.  I guess for them the answer is "none".

Thank you to all those dedicated members of the support group.

[rustyjeeper]

I haven't yet participated in a mission outside of SAREXs, but I'm holding out for the call!

Dont hold your breath!

[Fubar]

I don't mind continual training for a mission that never comes, it's when the mission comes and either CAP isn't invited or I'm not a part of the insiders club within CAP that gets the call that generates a certain amount of annoyance.

[RiverAux]

How many missions does it take to keep me motivated:  3

ES
CP
AE

If CP and AE (such as it is in CAP) are your thing, I'm glad that you're into those programs and more power to you, but this thread isn't for you. 

[JeffDG]

How many missions does it take to keep me motivated:  3

ES
CP
AE

If CP and AE (such as it is in CAP) are your thing, I'm glad that you're into those programs and more power to you, but this thread isn't for you.

He asked how many missions are necessary.

CAP has precisely three missions a year, every year.

[RiverAux]

He asked how many missions are necessary.

Yes, I did -- In the Emergency Services section of CAPTalk and with an introductory post that specifically discusses ES missions. 

[JeffDG]

He asked how many missions are necessary.

Yes, I did -- In the Emergency Services section of CAPTalk and with an introductory post that specifically discusses ES missions.

OK, how many have you IC'd in the last 48 hours?

The point I'm making is that ES is one mission.

[RiverAux]

None, and I'm not an IC and don't see why it matters to the conversation. 

My point is that your post is not responsive to the specific question being discussed in this thread.  If you don't like the way I asked the question, then leave it alone. 

[JeffDG]

None, and I'm not an IC and don't see why it matters to the conversation. 

My point is that your post is not responsive to the specific question being discussed in this thread.  If you don't like the way I asked the question, then leave it alone.

You seem to take some kind of ownership interest in this thread.  You have no such interest, and if people wish to point out that CAP has 3 missions, not just ES, then that is completely appropriate to do so.

Now, the fact that you wanted to make some implied comment that I'm not involved in the ES mission is not at all accurate.  I asked that question because your implication was "You're obviously a CP or AE guy, so bugger off and let the adults talk." when I am, in fact, very deeply involved in the ES program.

[RiverAux]

I actually complimented you on participation in CP and AE and said or implied nothing about your ES work as your post obviously implied that you participated in it. 

I don't know that I have ownership even though I started it, but threads do get closed when they get off topic. 

[SarDragon]

C'mon, kiddies. Grow up.

We have enough urinating competitions on here, without specifically starting them. The OP asked a Q about ES, in the ES forum. Coming in and intentionally derailing it isn't kool.

[umpirecali]

I am quasi-disappointed in the number of real missions, although our last wing commander worked hard to get CAP involved in more missions in our state.  The frustrating part was the amount of time it took for me to get trained.  Some of that was my fault as I came into CAP with a busy schedule.  But there were times went I was willing and ready to do MS or MO training, and there was no funding left, or no instructor available, or no class being held.  So, when a real mission came up, it was frustrating to not have the qualifications to go.  Again, some of that was my fault, but it is still frustrating.  I have been MO qualified for 9 months, and have not been able to go on a single flight as an observer since my 2nd qual flight.  In the last 9 months my schedule has been more flexible, I have been a squeaky wheel, and I have been able to get 2 flights in as AP. 

If a real mission were to happen tomorrow, I would be pretty rusty.  I will stay the course and hope that I will get to participate in my first real mission.   

[w7sar]

It's a valid question.  I know it's frustrating to hear from old-timers who (like me) recall week-long missions on a regular basis (sometimes every other week).  Back in the day, ground SAR wasn't a political deal.  I have a whole notebook of newspaper clippings where CAP SAR missions in Utah and Wyoming where CAP was the sole player and was often invited to the crash site to assist in the recovery with the sheriff.
I recall a sheriff, up for re-election, deciding CAP was getting too many headlines (I probably contributed to his woe as I worked for a newspaper) so he took all SAR in-house including ELT, missing aircraft, missing hunters, etc.  It was the beginning of the end.  Not to mention that CAP managed to offend some local law enforcement with stuff like red lights, sirens, "we're in charge" attitude, etc.
On the good side, in the past 10 or 15 years, those bad images are gone, but the missions are few as well.  Chalk it up to technology ... lots of our missions locally are day-long at the most.  With SARSAT, SPOT, cell tracking, radar analysis, etc., we get to the site pretty quickly, which is good.  It means that any SAR volunteer must be ready to go quick, which is problematic for many of us.  Until I retire next year, my job is somewhat needed as we've downsized ... no spare people if I take off.  My employer is kind, but not all the time.  I try to keep my gear ready to go and this too is a challenge if it's not used on a regular basis (even monthly) as I tend to move it in the house to make room for other stuff.
On the command side, it's a rough row to hoe.  I met with many public services agencies and the wing ES guys met with a lot more.  Good PR and good comments, no missions. 
I am sad when I read locally of a lake search or a vehicle search where a CAP plane or two could benefit ... but no call.  Still politics, some lack of understanding of the process, and we too have made the callout process somewhat protracted.  Years ago it was a quick call, now it takes a little longer. 
My worry today is that the missions will ramp up and we may not be ready to go and support it for a long-term event.  One friend at NHq said "be careful about what you wish for."  There may not be enough trained people ready immediately to respond ... and too many missions would have a negative impact on our people as well as their jobs and families.

So??? I agree.  More missions would be nice.  I've not been on a "long" mission (more than a day) for nearly two years.  Years ago I earned a number of finds/saves and clasps on my SAR ribbon ... but today members are hard-pressed to earn the basic award.  (I know awards are not our motivating desire, but they are a measure of activity.  Lots of us choose not to wear ribbons on a regular basis, but it is still nice to earn one.)

Now that I am in a squadron again, I find it very difficult to keep our pilots and ES staff motivated and skills sharp.  We've done a lot of table top missions, SAREX weekends, DF scrambles, etc. and the first dozen are great.  After that, it's another weekend away from home.  And usually it's the IC and comm guy that is left to clean up the ICP and put all the gear away.  I have members now in their second year asking "why" should they be at the meetings each week or even pursue professional development or other SAR skills (such as staff slots).

For some it's the social interaction for others it's learning SAR skills.  But, I agree.  We've run DF events and seldom get called as most county SAR teams have their own DF gear as do many airports.  Yes, we could fly and do a good job and respond on the ground as well.  But, DF is done by the agency and CAP is called when they cannot find it, which is rare.  I am afraid the batteries in my DF gear will expire before I get called ... or if I get called, the batteries will be dead.  It's not for lack of caring, it's just time and I neglect to check the batteries monthly.

Answers?  None.  Our wing team tried many, many approaches and found very little success in getting called.  The effort continues ...

Great discussion here!  I have always said we save more lives in the cadet program than in ES.  I believe that to be true.  Don't neglect the youth.  They are the future of CAP.

[Brit_in_CAP]

Disregard, please.  Pressed the wrong button.

[Brit_in_CAP]

Great discussion here!  I have always said we save more lives in the cadet program than in ES.  I believe that to be true.  Don't neglect the youth.  They are the future of CAP.

What I meant to do!

+1 on the last comment.

[Afbrat52]

How can one create a poll in a post? Very interesting.

[SarDragon]

How can one create a poll in a post? Very interesting.

I think you need a minimum number of posts before that feature is available. There have been problems with new people abusing it.

[JC004]

Correct.

[skydogjack]

After a 12 year absence, I've just returned to CAP. Things have changed, but having been a SAR mountain pilot, and now simply scanner-observer, CAP is about preparation and teamwork, practice and proficiency when the need for CAP missions does arise, and it will.  While I'm still an active pilot, I'm happy to sit in either the right front or rear. Whether it be a natural disaster , or God help us, another terror attack, I want to be part of an organization that is ready to be put into service.

Army combat veteran and retired law enforcement.