CAP Counter Drug in the News

[blackrain]

Looks like Cap CD is in the news....and the drought is helping to reveal more of the marijuana crop....

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-08-22/marijuana-plants-drought/57203590/1

[Critical AOA]

Shhhhhh..... we are supposed to be covert. 

[blackrain]

I really liked the irony of "covert" 

[Flying Pig]

They pulled 30 plants by noon?   Where I am we dont even bother unless its over 1000.  You ever seen MJ plants that are bigger than orange trees with about 30lbs of bud on them? 

[Garibaldi]

I seem to remember some debate about using corporate assets to do CD missions awhile back, mainly because if some grower happened to look up and saw a CAP plane flying over his fields...and pulled out his gun...or decided to pay a "social visit" to his local CAP unit...there'd be trouble. I guess we solved that little problem, huh...

[Eclipse]

CD = Character Development.

Counter Narcotics = CN.

I seem to remember some debate about using corporate assets to do CDN missions...

That was hay made by people who didn't understand the question.

[Flying Pig]

Debate?   Been doing it for 20yrs.   None of this is new.

Eclipse, sorry man, Its referred to as the CD Program all throughout CAP.  Heck, I even have a CAP Counter Drug Medal with 4 bronze clasps!  There may be places that call it CN, but even the CAP documents related to it are "Counter Drug".  Even the screening Form CAP Form 83 is the "Civil Air Patrol Counter Drug Program Application"

[bflynn]

I really liked the irony of "covert" 

what's the irony of covert?

During WWII, American submarines were pretty successful in escaping counter-attacks.  Senator Andrew May of Kentucky held a press conference where he revealed that the reason was because the Japanese were setting their depth charges too shallow, so they were exploding before they got down to our submarines.  As a result, the Japanese altered their depth charges to explode deeper.  Admiral Lockwood estimated that May's lack of discretion probably led to the loss of 10 more submarines and about 800 men (20% of the total for the war).

Loose lips really do sink ships. 

The reason you never talk about covert stuff is because then it isn't covert. 

[Eclipse]

Debate?   Been doing it for 20yrs.   None of this is new.

Eclipse, sorry man, Its referred to as the CD Program all throughout CAP.  Heck, I even have a CAP Counter Drug Medal with 4 bronze clasps!  There may be places that call it CN, but even the CAP documents related to it are "Counter Drug".  Even the screening Form CAP Form 83 is the "Civil Air Patrol Counter Drug Program Application"

All forms and docs that pre-date the change in nomenclature.  Like anything else that changes, we need to use the proper terminology so
that the new guys catch on and the incorrect terms eventually dies of attrition.

[blackrain]

I really liked the irony of "covert" 

what's the irony of covert?

During WWII, American submarines were pretty successful in escaping counter-attacks.  Senator Andrew May of Kentucky held a press conference where he revealed that the reason was because the Japanese were setting their depth charges too shallow, so they were exploding before they got down to our submarines.  As a result, the Japanese altered their depth charges to explode deeper.  Admiral Lockwood estimated that May's lack of discretion probably led to the loss of 10 more submarines and about 800 men (20% of the total for the war).

Loose lips really do sink ships. 

The reason you never talk about covert stuff is because then it isn't covert.

I was just referring to the fact that we try so hard to keep things covert yet there it is in the news in black and white. I actually agree with you.

There's an interesting story from WW2 about George Marshall who quietly visited Gov Dewey who was at the time running against Roosevelt in 1944. Gen Marshall was concerned Dewey might try to discredit Roosevelt for missing clues in signal intercepts of Japanese Comms pre Pearl Harbor. Obviously the fact that we were still listening in 1944 was something Marshall wanted to keep secret.

[Critical AOA]

So when was it changed from Counter Drug to Counter Narcotic?  Where is this written at?  In what regulation or other official publication?  The only place I have seen this is here on CAPTalk.

The most recent CAPR 60-1 dated 16April2012 refers to it as Counter Drug.  That is pretty recent.

Also the regulation that directly covers CD, CAPR 60-6, was last updated on  1September2003.  If it really has been changed, shouldn't the main regulation for it have been updated as soon as the announcement was made to call it CN?

[Eclipse]

The evolution of terminology began when the Moral Leadership Program was changed to "Character Development", creating some confusion
of terms and duty.  CD & CN are used interchangeably within both CAP & the DOD, sometimes within the same documents (http://tinyurl.com/9eu2q4k) - that doesn't negate encouraging the use of proper terminology.

VG sells the decoration as the CN ribbon (though that is hardly definitive).

Eservices still refers to it as CD, but that is hardly definitive, either.

Also the regulation that directly covers CD, CAPR 60-6, was last updated on  1September2003.  If it really has been changed, shouldn't the main regulation for it have been updated as soon as the announcement was made to call it CN?

Yes.

CN is also a more correct term - it has nothing to do with "drugs" as a generic.  It is focused on a single substance which is a narcotic in its natural form.

CAP's "anti-drug" program is DDR which deals with all manner of both natural and processed compounds and products, but of course not in an direct interdiction sort of way, but in an abuse prevention perspective.

[Flying Pig]

Evolution of the terminology?  So you mean people started referring to it as that.  Because Ive never heard the program called CN, I was pretty active in it up until last year and still stay pretty up to speed on CAP changes. 

So calling it CD is a preference, not wrong.  I have yet to see any official documents or training referring to the program as CN.

[Eclipse]

Evolution of the terminology?  So you mean people started referring to it as that.  Because Ive never heard the program called CN, I was pretty active in it up until last year and still stay pretty up to speed on CAP changes. 

So calling it CD is a preference, not wrong.  I have yet to see any official documents or training referring to the program as CN.

If by "people" you mean the "DoD as far back as 2004", then simply click the document I referenced above.

That document uses the term specifically in a CAP context, though as I said, it uses both interchangeably.

[Critical AOA]

So again, which CAP regulation or other official publication states that it is no longer to be referred to as CD but as CN?

[Garibaldi]

snip

CAP's "anti-drug" program is DDR which deals with all manner of both natural and processed compounds and products, but of course not in an direct interdiction sort of way, but in an abuse prevention perspective.

Dance Dance Revolution? Deutsche Demokratic Republic? 

[Eclipse]

So again, which CAP regulation or other official publication states that it is no longer to be referred to as CD but as CN?

How about the CAPF 101CN?

[sardak]

Apparently someone else is among the hordes that missed the memo: The National Commander is looking for a qualified member to fill another important National Staff position -- Operational Missions Officer. This position was established to assist the Emergency Services Officer and National Leadership in implementing the goals and vision for all Homeland Security, Counter-drug/Drug Interdiction, and associated special mission functional areas, with special emphasis on the safety of CAP members in the performance of those specialties  http://www.capmembers.com/cap_national_hq/national-staff-position/
********
http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/dod_dictionary/

The DOD Dictionary is managed by the Joint Education and Doctrine Division, J-7, Joint Staff. All approved joint definitions, acronyms, and abbreviations are contained in Joint Publication 1-02, DOD Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms 08 November 2010, as amended through 15 July 2012.

counternarcotics
(DOD) See counterdrug.
Source: JP 3-07.4

counterdrug
(DOD) Those active measures taken to detect, monitor, and counter the production, trafficking, and use of illegal drugs. Also called CD and counternarcotics (CN).
Source: JP 3-07.4

JP 3-07.4, Joint Counterdrug Operations, 13 June 2007
**********

Mike

[Eclipse]

I already granted they are used interchangeably, many times in the same document.

[Critical AOA]

So why do you insist or at least show a strong preference to call it CN when practically no CAP publication calls it that?

[Eclipse]

So why do you insist or at least show a strong preference to call it CN when practically no CAP publication calls it that?

Because CN is what it actually is, and CN does not conflict or confuse with similiar terms within CAP.

[jayleswo]

Because Eclipse is wrong and can't admit it? I don't see the Counterdrug Ribbon in the ribbon rack in his signature indicating, perhaps, a lack of familiarity with the program. I have one with several clasps myself.

To his credit, the program used to be referred to as Counter Narcotic (CN). It was changed to Counterdrug (one word) or, alternatively Counter Drug (two words) several years ago. I'm looking at the card NHQ used to issue (expired in 2008 as they don't issue it any longer, just listed as an Ops Qual now) which refers to the Counter Drug program. The reason it changed is simple. A narcotic is a specific class of drug. MJ is not a narcotic yet is listed in CAPR 60-5 as one of the activities involve din this program so it changed.

-- John

(edited last sentence for OPSEC)

[Eclipse]

Because Eclipse is wrong and can't admit it? I don't see the Counterdrug Ribbon in the ribbon rack in his signature indicating, perhaps, a lack of familiarity with the program. I have one with several clasps myself.

That must be it...

MJ is, in fact, a narcotic in its natural form, so there's that...

[jayleswo]

Eclipse, please read the following helpful literature.

http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/abuse/drug_data_sheets/Narcotics.pdf
http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/abuse/drug_data_sheets/Marijuana.pdf

Thanks, -- John

[Eclipse]

You're welcome.

Science disagrees with the DEA.  THC is most certainly a psychoactive, and the textbook definition of a narcotic is a psychoactive substance.

[Garibaldi]

You're welcome.

Science disagrees with the DEA.  THC is most certainly a psychoactive, and the textbook definition of a narcotic is a psychoactive substance.

Narcotic: any of a class of substances that blunt the senses, as opium, morphine, belladonna, and alcohol, that in large quantities produce euphoria, stupor, or coma, that when used constantly can cause habituation or addiction, and that are used in medicine to relieve pain, cause sedation, and induce sleep.

I guess marijuana falls under that category.

THC: A compound, C21H30O2, obtained from cannabis or made synthetically, that is the primary intoxicant in marijuana and hashish.

Yep.

[Critical AOA]

DEA, huh?  Should be NEA.   

[jayleswo]

You're welcome.

Science disagrees with the DEA.  THC is most certainly a psychoactive, and the textbook definition of a narcotic is a psychoactive substance.

I'm sure you can find something on the interwebs which would support that statement but that doesn't make it applicable in this context. Anyway, I provided an authoritative cite, curious to know which source you are referring to?

Regardless, the fact is that the program is now referred to as Counterdrug as referenced in the current program material. Your argument to the contrary in previous posts refer to outdated information. Your edited post which refers to the CAPF 101CN for example. This card was discontinued and replaced with the CAPF 101CD (I have examples of both cards issued to me with dates showing the 10CD superceding the 101CN). The ribbon recognizing participation is called the Counterdrug Ribbon. The regulation under which we operate (CAPR 60-6) is titled CAP Counterdrug Operations, the current nomenclature in Ops Qual is Counterdrug. The current form you submit to apply for the program is titled CAP Counterdrug Application.  Anything referring to CN is old stuff.

Anyway, those involved in the program generally know what it's called. Just trying to correct some misinformation but having a very difficult time of it for some reason.

[Critical AOA]

Oh there you go, throwing facts around.   :clap:

[Eclipse]

Anyway, those involved in the program generally know what it's called.

Yes, some of them do...

[jayleswo]

Anyway, those involved in the program generally know what it's called.

Yes, some of them do...

Yup, like me for instance.

[Eclipse]

Anyway, those involved in the program generally know what it's called.

Yes, some of them do...

Yup, like me for instance.

Great, glad I could correct the misconception for you.

[lordmonar]

I already granted they are used interchangeably, many times in the same document.

Then why did you give someone a had time for calling the Counter Drug operation CD.  Yes it is the same CD as Character Development....and the same CD as my Compact Disc, Certificate of Deposite.

You know if you are going to go all Nomunclature Nazi on us....you need to have a better ground to stand on.

[jayleswo]

Anyway, those involved in the program generally know what it's called.

Yes, some of them do...

Yup, like me for instance.

Great, glad I could correct the misconception for you.

Huh? What in the world are you talking about? Do you really still think the program isn't named Counterdrug or just trying to have the last word or what?

[sarmed1]

The reason you never talk about covert stuff is because then it isn't covert.

The first rule of fight club is..........


I remeber back in the early 90's (when I first remember the mission coming out) it wa refered to as CN....counter narcotics.  I remember being told the reasoning the switch to CD was the whole "war on drugs" concept; it was a mission to stop all drugs, not just narcotics......
mk

[bflynn]

You guys are talking about the difference between the english deifinition and the legal definintion.

Under the english definition, a can of beer is a narcotic drug because sufficient appliation produces a sleepy state.  If that's the definition we're using then there are a whole lot of people whose refrigerator at home doesn't mean CAP zero tolerence rules.

Under the legal definition, a narcotic drug is opiate based, including the opiate substitutes.

Once upon a time, narcotic was a generic term to describe all drugs.  But that was changed years ago to avoid exactly this kind of confusion.

None of which is relevant to the fact that I've heard "counter-drug", CD missions and CD many, many time in CAP, but I've never heard the term counter-narcotic or CN until this thread. 

[Eclipse]

I'm apparently full of it on the issue of the program nomenclature.  I just finished the CD Orientation / Refresher stuff and clearly the terminology used is "Counter Drug".
Granted the presentation still contains a photo of the Smurfsuit and a wing patch on blues, but it is what it is.

http://artofmanliness.com/2013/02/19/how-to-own-up-to-mistakes/

[Flying Pig]

Now you can be part of the secret Counter Drug chat room here on CAPTALK. Nobody is supposed to know about it.  Hit up the moderator to get access.  Just dont tell anyone about it.   

[johnnyb47]

Now you can be part of the secret Counter Drug chat room here on CAPTALK. Nobody is supposed to know about it.  Hit up the moderator to get access.  Just dont tell anyone about it.   

And there goes that pesky coffee shooter in my nose again.
Thanks.

Incidentally; warm coffee through the nose? Not that bad. Kind of soothing actually.

[Eclipse]

Now you can be part of the secret Counter Drug chat room here on CAPTALK. Nobody is supposed to know about it.  Hit up the moderator to get access.  Just dont tell anyone about it.   

Awesome - who knew?

Broccoli and rare earth magnets?  (I've already said too much!)

[cantthinkof1]

This may be a bit off topic, but does anyone know where I can find more CAP CD news/articles like this one?  I know it's supposed to be "covert" but look this one we got mentioned in.

[Woodsy]

Shoot, we can't get our name in an article about a downed plane we found, but this stuff gets out... ugh...

[Flying Pig]

You can search High Times magazine .... I think there are some comments about CAP planes working out of Ukiah CA

[bosshawk]

Ukiah: talk about a target-rich environment.

[PHall]

Ukiah: talk about a target-rich environment.

Yeah, we're the target though.  They do have AAA there!

[bosshawk]

I haven't flown Ukiah in about three years, but managed to make 30-40 sorties in Mendocino County before that without having been shot at(at least to my knowledge).  I ran the CAP portion of the DEA Overflight School every summer for at least six years: out of Ukiah.  Also flew CD missions for the Sheriff for four or five additional years.  Those folks are too strung out to bother shooting at little airplanes.

[a2capt]

OTOH, I found a hole in the wing of a rented plane .. one evening .. during a pre-flight to depart Compton. Luckily, it hit an inspection panel.

I still have it somewhere.

[bosshawk]

And Compton is probably 400 miles from Ukiah: in fact, Socal is more or less a separate state.

[Woodsy]

You can search High Times magazine .... I think there are some comments about CAP planes working out of Ukiah CA

Must be nice!  Oh, you small town/state PAO's...  How nice it must be! 

I'll trade the bullet holes for the "other stuff" any day!!! 

[Duke Dillio]

State police cut down about 100 plants later Tuesday at rural sites in Harrison and Clark counties. They plan to burn the plants.

Really....   

[SarDragon]

State police cut down about 100 plants later Tuesday at rural sites in Harrison and Clark counties. They plan to burn the plants.

Really....   

A hundred plants? Small change.

The stuff grows wild in Japan. On the base at Misawa, in the summer of '76, 300 man working parties went out and harvested two tons of whacky weed, twice. It all got soaked in kerosene, and burned. Everyone had to stay upwind, Smelled really nasty because of the kerosene, anyway.

[a2capt]

High Journalist

[cantthinkof1]

You're welcome.

Science disagrees with the DEA.  THC is most certainly a psychoactive, and the textbook definition of a narcotic is a psychoactive substance.

MJ is a tricky one.  In some cases, it is a narcotic, in some cases, it isn't.  The actual textbook definition of a narcotic is, "A drug or other substance affecting mood or behavior and sold for non-medical purposes."   MJ is sold for medical purposes, however.

[bosshawk]

100 plants: there are counties in Northern CA where the DEA and the local sheriff won't even record the map coordinates of a grow of less than 500 plants.  I have participated in operations that resulted in a half million plants being harvested by law enforcement.