Changes to GT Gear List

[GTCommando]

Alright,
I've been GTM certified for over a year now, and pretty much have my gear down to a science. But I was wondering: If you were put put in charge of rewriting GTM Task O-0001, Prepare Individual equipment, what would you change, if anything?

Would you add/remove any specific items to the equipment list?

Add to/remove anything from the required items for trainees?

Make any optional equipment mandatory, or vice versa?

Alter any additional guidance on equipment, e.g. restrictions on knives?

Try to keep the thread on topic, please. This could become a very useful and interesting discussion. Thanks in advance for your input.

[cap235629]

adopt the NASAR standard and not try to reinvent the wheel

[lordmonar]

Add Space Blanket to survival kit.
Add Strobe light to survival kit.

[md]

Take out the watch - so many people use phones anyway (especially if you're just out with your 24hr gear). On the same note, a lighter works just as well as matches, and it's less likely to get wet (but maybe more likely to be used inappropriately?)

And how about a small notebook or paper with a pen for your pocket?

And more safety pins for those times the person next to loses a button.

[mclarke]

Require Binoculars of GTL.
Beacon Light for GTM (optional) and GTL (required)

[Майор Хаткевич]

Take out the watch - so many people use phones anyway (especially if you're just out with your 24hr gear).

Watch battery life - measured in years. Smartphone battery life - 3-24 hours.
I suppose they compliment each other, and act as a backup, but you can't get rid of a watch. My TGHK watch has a backlight button, a timer, alarms, tells me the date/day of the week, AND has a small compass to boot. So does my cellphone. But my watch doesn't take up a pocket, sits on my wrist, and weights less.

On the same note, a lighter works just as well as matches, and it's less likely to get wet (but maybe more likely to be used inappropriately?)

I always had both.

[titanII]

a lighter works just as well as matches, and it's less likely to get wet

neither works like a flint fire starter. They can be soaked for hours and still start a fire. Nothing like 'em. I think they, along with suitable tinder (cotton balls, etc.) in a Ziploc bag, should be added. But I do carry matches, for when I'm lazy/not falling in streams 

As for the cellphone vs watch debate: Bring both. Use the watch to tell time reliably, and as a compass if analog. Keep the cellphone off in a Ziploc bag, for emergency calls.

[ol'fido]

Carry more matches. These should be wooden strike anywhere kitchen matches. The so called waterproof matches sold in camping stores require a special striking surface and go bad quickly becoming very brittle. Some gear geeks will waterproof their matches by dipping the heads in melted parafin and letting them dry. Keeping them in a watertight container and exercising caution should work just fine. Also, carry a butane lighter and a metal match/ferrite rod. When talking about firemaking tools and materials carry more than one.

Flashlight with red or blue lens are useful only if driving or flying IMHO. Having a driver/pilot that can see because of the glare inside the vehicle/aircraft would probably be a bad thing. Otherwise, CAP is not the military we don't need to maintain noise and light discipline. Get a big bright white lens flashlight for night work. The batteries should last for 4-5 hours. If your IC or GBD is doing their job that should be about as long as you should be searching at night(for a lost person) before you are pulled to rest and resupply. Then you change batteries. In fact I would get a nice bright headlamp so that the light goes where you look and you have both hands free.

Just my personal pet peeve, but I don't need a shoe shine kit in my gear either.

[Al Sayre]

I haven't seen strike anywhere matches in quite a while, I think some states have even outlawed them.

[titanII]

I would get a nice bright headlamp so that the light goes where you look and you have both hands free.

+1,000,000. SOOO useful.

but I don't need a shoe shine kit in my gear either.

You're joking, right? 

[ol'fido]

Nope.

[titanII]

Oh gosh, I have some choice (four letter) words for people who would even think to bring a shoe shine kit 

[Eclipse]

Oh gosh, I have some choice (four letter) words for people who would even think to bring a shoe shine kit 

Nothing wrong with having a simple kit or some boot black in your 72.  Just because you're in the field doesn't mean
you have to look like poop, especially if you are there for a prolonged period of time.

Not all missions are 1 day on a weekend.

[titanII]

I agree appearance is important, but not when it gets in the way of doing the job right. I personally think that this crosses the line into impracticality. I could understand if they were making sure their boots were functional, drying them, MAYBE mink oil etc. (which can and should be done at home). But why is someone shining their boots during a multi day ES mission? Why do they have so much extra time that the most useful thing they could do is make their boots look better. If they have free time, they should he doing something that enhances their ability to be useful in the operation, like eating or sleeping. Not to mention it is extra weight in your pack.

[Eclipse]

Not to belabor this, but...

...the 72-hour pack is base gear, and in most situations you're not carrying it anywhere - it's in the back of a van or
other transport, or maybe you had to schlep it a ways to get to the FOB or main bivouac area, but once there, you drop it and leave it.

Few CAP operations are ever going to be death marches into the wilderness.  In most cases they are long days in semi-urbanized areas
where we are supporting larger operations as part of the whole.

A GTL today might be a GBD tomorrow, and there's no reason he can't clean up his boots before walking around the ICP and the press, etc.

Critical?  Of course not.  A piece of professionalism?  Yes.

We also know that the "boot shine circle" is an age-old tradition that in my experience is some of the most effective CISM you will find, and
generally all CAP members need.

[arajca]

Taking proper care of your boots includes polishing. When wiping the field crud off, you usually take off some polish and protection. A quick coat and buff restores it. No one realistically expects a high gloss shine after a day in the field, but a fresh coat of polish will help your boots last longer. Some of the man-made stuff doesn't need to be polished, but leather does.

[md]

Flashlight with red or blue lens are useful only if driving or flying IMHO. Having a driver/pilot that can see because of the glare inside the vehicle/aircraft would probably be a bad thing. Otherwise, CAP is not the military we don't need to maintain noise and light discipline. Get a big bright white lens flashlight for night work.

I think I disagree. If my eyes actually adjust to the dark, I can see pretty well, especially with peripheral vision, and that's what we need with a search anyway. With the white, I can see a lot better in a little area and a lot worse everywhere else. But maybe that's just me.

(and, yes, I never believed this was true until GSAR school - where we learn lots of impossible things in a very short period of time...)

[sardak]

In 2002, while writing ASTM standard F2209 for land search team member, I compiled the 24-hour or basic equipment lists from 20 SAR organizations and teams from around the country. Last year, Pete Norris of NESA and other fame, asked me if I had considered updating the master list. I hadn't, but I took a look at it and decided it didn't need updating. I attached a cover letter explaining why and sent it to Pete. This thread prompted me to look again. I tweaked the cover page but didn't mess with the list. I've attached the 2011 version for your reading pleasure. There is also a list of items for the 72-hour (base camp) kit.

There were a total of 100 items on the lists (purely by chance, not by editing). I list them in descending order of importance based on several scoring methods explained with the list. Only six items were on all 20 lists and no list had all 100.

Matches appeared on 19 lists, fire starter on 12 and lighter on six, the point being that some means of starting a fire is required. Shoe/boot shine kit appeared on zero 24-hour lists. It may have appeared on some 72-hour kits since there were lists from CAP units

Flashlight or headlamp was on all 20 lists, with spare batteries, spare bulb and/or second light source on most lists. I didn't look into details such as red lenses. However, in 31 years of SAR I've never searched at night with anything other than a white light, and can't think of anyone else who has either. In fact, there is usually discussion over who has the brightest, most practicable light (gazillion power battery powered floodlights aren't much fun hauling around). The point is to see what's around you and to be seen by those you're looking for.

Mike

[md]

Thanks, sardak, that's an interesting list. Always good to remember that people have many different ways to do things, all (we hope) reasonable in their situations.

[Al Sayre]

I found it interesting that 100% required a compass, yet only 13% required a map...

[titanII]

With a flashlight/headlamp, a red lense/filter is very useful, but I don't think it is absolutely necessary. Plus they often make the light less powerful. So useful? yes. Mandatory? I don't think it should be.

[Major Lord]

1) Cash
2) Credit Card
3) Automobile Club (AAA) or similar)
4) Actual food ( Not MRE's)

Headlights? Matches? Axes? Have you guys actual been on an actual mission?

Major Lord

[NM SAR]

for Maj. Lord; axes and matches, okay, we probably never use. but I haven't been on a search YET that I didn't need my headlamp.

[Eclipse]

White lights destroy your night vision, especially when blasted directly in the face buy an overly enthusiastic cadet with
his dad's new $150 Nichia-chipped "piece of the sun".

There is a time and place for white, and a time for color, which is why most flashlights these days have multi-colors.

In some search scenarios, pseudo-stealth may be an advantage, as in the case where someone is actually hiding from
the searchers, in which case mega-lights may scare them more or give away where the searchers are.

In camp, colored lights are usually the most comfortable for everyone involved.

[Al Sayre]

snip...
In camp, colored lights are usually the most comfortable for everyone involved.

And if you have enough, you can even have your own combat disco! 

[thatonekid]

Condoms? In case you get bored? Or do I need to be more creative?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Condoms? In case you get bored? Or do I need to be more creative?

I hope it was a joke. But either way, it comes of...strange.

[titanII]

Condoms? In case you get bored? Or do I need to be more creative?

I watched an episode of Dual Survival ( a survival tv series) where the two guys were given, among other things, a few condoms. I thInk they used them to hold water

[ol'fido]

Condoms? In case you get bored? Or do I need to be more creative?

I hope it was a joke. But either way, it comes of...strange.

Trojan UNLUBRICATED condoms are often included in survival kit lists for use as a water carrier. I have never found the need to use one for this purpose. But if you find a fresh water source and have no other way to carry it, condoms are probably better than trying to use your pocket. On the other hand, even in the most remote areas of the country you will more than likely find one or more discarded plastic water or soda bottles that can be used to carry and store water. If you are careful, you can even sterilize the water by boiling it in the bottle.

[ElectricPenguin]

OR, for 'survival purposes', you could 'use' them to keep youself from getting depressed. 

[cap235629]

OR, for 'survival purposes', you could 'use' them to keep youself from getting depressed. 

ok let's get serious again....

locker room humor is not necessary

[ElectricPenguin]

For the winter, hand warmers should be used...

[titanII]

For the winter, hand warmers should be used...

Uhhhh isn't that what gloves are for?
Just Kidding 
Good catch. One pair of waterproof gloves/mittens to wear, one or more for when the first get wet, and hand warmers.Those awesome little packets have saved my fingers many a time.

[LTC Don]

adopt the NASAR standard and not try to reinvent the wheel

xeleventybillion.


/thread

[lordmonar]

adopt the NASAR standard and not try to reinvent the wheel

xeleventybillion.


/thread

Yes....but what are the NASAR standards?  Anyone posted them?

[Major Lord]

NASAR has too many standards to reflect in one brief chat room post;

http://www.nasar.org/page/21/Course-and-Exam-Schedule

Frankly, without adopting NASAR standards, we will always be the black sheep in the SAR game; Most of them know enough about CAP to know that our training tends to be ........variable......

Major Lord

[lordmonar]

Well......NASAR is in the Standards Buisness.

But my point is that NASAR probably does not have a "Ground Team Packing List Standard" the way CAP GT does.
I'm sure it has a helpfuly list of thing you should bring to the field.....but not a "you will have 2 2X2 guauze bandages.....if you only have 1 or ithe they are 3X3 you fail" sort of standard.

[NC Hokie]

Here's a NASAR equipment list from 2004... The urban SAR pack on the second page looks like it might work for UDF teams.

[Thom]

The current NASAR study materials for SARTECH II, the book 'Fundamentals of Search and Rescue', has a similar listing of minimum personal equipment, recommended equipment, and an urban-only reduced loadout.

NASAR takes it very seriously that these are minimum specs, and you need to have all of these things. You can carry more if you like, but you must carry this stuff.


Thom

[MCRmy]

for first aid kit: instant ice pack

[sardak]

Let me provide some input as the NASAR Standards Review Unit Manager (called the Standards Reveiw Liaison on the org chart on page 3 of the document at http://www.nasar.org/files/programadministration/Chapter_2_-_NASAR_Operations.pdf).

But my point is that NASAR probably does not have a "Ground Team Packing List Standard" the way CAP GT does.

As the other pointed out, it most certainly does have such a list and it is required to have all the items on the list to be certified as a SARTECH II. It even specifies the minimum volume the pack must be. There is also an equipment list for SARTECH I. However, these lists aren't standards.

The SARTECH II equipment list was one of the 20 lists I used in my compilation posted earlier in this thread. That compilation is an appendix in ASTM Standard F2209 "Guide for Training of Level I Land Search Team Member." SARTECH III and II comply with standard F2209.

Well......NASAR is in the Standards Buisness.

NASAR does not develop or sell standards. NASAR develops and sells educational materials, teaches classes for $ and provides certification exams for $. SARTECH is a certification, a credential if you want to call it that, but it is not a standard. You do not have to take any NASAR classes or use the FUNSAR book to take the SARTECH II certification exam. The list of "standards" Major Lord linked to are course/classes, not standards.

There is a NASAR document titled "Standards for SARTECH III, II, I and Crewleader III." These are certification standards - the course content, procedures and exams are standardized internal to NASAR. A person who desires to teach and certify SARTECH must meet these standards. SARTECH itself is not the standard.

SARTECH has become a de facto standard because it's curriculum and certification have been the only ones available nationally. However, the National Park Service just last month publicly released its SAR Technician 3 course which includes an online course module, classroom module. 24-hour pack list and position task book. This is all free. The NPS is the lead federal agency for ESF #9 Land SAR. How do you think this will affect SARTECH as the "standard"? Link to thread on NPS SAR Tech - Type 3  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13155.0

One last point, the NIMS SAR Credentialing and Typing Working Group originally specified SARTECH as a requirement. When it was pointed out that this is a certification and not a standard, they changed the requirement to the generic, "parent" ASTM F2209 standard.

Mike

Edited to add link to NPS thread

[sardak]

I found it interesting that 100% required a compass, yet only 13% required a map...

24-hour pack lists are for personal equipment and many organization don't consider maps personal equipment. They're usually required, but the maps are issued as team equipment, like radios and to a [much] lesser extent, GPS units.

Mike

[commando1]

I generally try to keep a map of my AO in my gear. Granted, it is not a very detailed map but for interstate/highway driving it has been a major help before. I have been on SAREX's before where the team leader had to stop at the local Wal-Mart to buy some maps to figure out where we were/were we needed to be. 

[ol'fido]

I am a map rat. I hate to throw away a map. Even the cheap tourist maps. One of these days though I am going to buy an extra Delorme, cut the pages for Southern Illinois out and have them laminated so I can take the one or two I might need with me and leave the rest at base.

[srtmedic]

One last point, the NIMS SAR Credentialing and Typing Working Group originally specified SARTECH as a requirement. When it was pointed out that this is a certification and not a standard, they changed the requirement to the generic, "parent" ASTM F2209 standard.

Mike

Edited to add link to NPS thread

I have just gone to FEMA and pulled up their Designing a National Emergency Responder Credentialing System Search and Rescue (SAR) Working Group document under SAR Job Title 35: Wilderness Search and/or Rescue Technician, SAR Job Title 36: Wilderness Search and/or Rescue Unit Leader; NASAR SARTECH II, and I are still being listed as part of the requirements.

This document from FEMA is dated Nov 2006 and that is the most current version on their site.  There is nothing in this document under SAR Job Title 35 and 36 that states that NASAR is not accepted.

If NASAR has been removed from the credentialing process as you have stated above Mike, then please point us in the right direction.

[sardak]

I have just gone to FEMA and pulled up their Designing a National Emergency Responder Credentialing System Search and Rescue (SAR) Working Group document under SAR Job Title 35: Wilderness Search and/or Rescue Technician, SAR Job Title 36: Wilderness Search and/or Rescue Unit Leader; NASAR SARTECH II, and I are still being listed as part of the requirements.

That's because they are the only document released by FEMA. The SAR Working Group has repeatedly asked that it be removed but FEMA thinks bad is better than nothing, so they won't pull the documents.

As has been said though, since SAR Tech complies with ASTM standard F2209, SAR Tech should meet the new requirements if they're ever finished.

Mike

[ThatOneGuy]

Add in steel wool or some other fire source besides matches, as they do not always work... A first aid kit with some more stuff in it, and I think it'd be neat if they had a summer list and a winter list (but I do like to think of my own gear I will need in those good ol' Colorado Winters  )

[srtmedic]

I have just gone to FEMA and pulled up their Designing a National Emergency Responder Credentialing System Search and Rescue (SAR) Working Group document under SAR Job Title 35: Wilderness Search and/or Rescue Technician, SAR Job Title 36: Wilderness Search and/or Rescue Unit Leader; NASAR SARTECH II, and I are still being listed as part of the requirements.

That's because they are the only document released by FEMA. The SAR Working Group has repeatedly asked that it be removed but FEMA thinks bad is better than nothing, so they won't pull the documents.

As has been said though, since SAR Tech complies with ASTM standard F2209, SAR Tech should meet the new requirements if they're ever finished.

Mike

so, let me make sure i am clear on this.  nasar sartech certification does meet astm standard.  is that correct or not.  i know that nasar is re-writing their funsar book and i would also assume that the other books will follow.

[arajca]

Add in steel wool or some other fire source besides matches, as they do not always work... A first aid kit with some more stuff in it, and I think it'd be neat if they had a summer list and a winter list (but I do like to think of my own gear I will need in those good ol' Colorado Winters  )

National had the not fun job of coming up with a basic list that worked in all 50 states. There are items that can (and should) be added based on YOUR local environments. A multi-layer winter coat system and -40 degree sleeping bag may not be necessary in Florida, but can definitiely be useful up here where the air is rare. As long as you havethe basics, you can add to it as necessary and prudent.

[sardak]

nasar sartech certification does meet astm standard.  is that correct or not.

Yes, you are correct.

Mike

[srtmedic]

thank you mike for your very informative posts.

[Jerry Jacobs]

We also know that the "boot shine circle" is an age-old tradition that in my experience is some of the most effective CISM you will find, and generally all CAP members need.

I seriously hope you don't actually do or believe this

[Major Lord]

Jerry,

Now that you are getting to an age when you will switch to the dark side, let me tell you how CISM is handled in the real world. In the words of Marge Simpson, you take those bad, bad feelings, and push them down so deep that you can almost walk on them. As soon as you are with a like minded group ( I.e., Cops, ER Docs, Nurses, soldiers, SAR guys who have seen the elephant, etc.) You drink a powerful emetic known by its chemical name as  ETOH. Eventually, the ETOH will dissolve the bad feelings and are quickly regurgitated. In the mean time, your coworkers and team mates will use positive reinforcement to create an environment that compels you to ingest as much ETOH as possible to achieve the psycho-chemical attitude adjustment you require for your particular level of stress, and a form of cognitive therapy involving mocking and full water immersion if you should happen to exhibit inappropriate levels of emotionally labile behaviors ( crying into your beer, rolling up into the fetal position, etc.)

In double blind studies, this treatment was found to be superior to aroma therapy, spousal abuse, Rolfing, or climbing onto a roof top with an AK-47.

Major Lord
p.s. I hope that DF thing I built for you still works!

[Jerry Jacobs]

I dont think that DF Unit will ever break, built like a tank!