First Aid Card

[SARDOC]

I find in the Ground Team Task Guide that it's required that Ground Team members carry a First Aid Card.  Is this a Real requirement?  I don't think an Injured person is going to demand to see it before allowing First Aid Treatment and it doesn't really provide you any liability protection.  I ask this question because I'm in the process of Hosting a First Aid Class in my Squadron.  I can teach the class for Free but if a Card is required then the certifying agency I teach through wants $13.50 for the textbook.  The hook is they will only issue one card with the purchase of a new textbook making all the members of my squadron to have to purchase a textbook.  Is this just an antiquated requirement or is there some legitimate reason for having it physically on your person?

[RiverAux]

Probably no more so than having to carry a CAP identification card or 101 card on you. 

[Spaceman3750]

In my wing they like you to upload that stuff to OPS QUAL.

That said, is your class a certifying class if they don't issue a certification card?

The textbook bit is annoying when it comes to first aid/CPR classes. I'm a Red Cross instructor and I'm pretty happy that they made it so that you can use either the textbook or the skill card when you teach. The skill card is way cheaper and presents the important information from the class in a much easier format.

[RiverAux]

Keep in mind that depending on your state's laws you may need to actually have some official certification in order to be covered by your Good Samaritan law. 

CAP knowledgebase:Link

[SARDOC]

In my wing they like you to upload that stuff to OPS QUAL.

That said, is your class a certifying class if they don't issue a certification card?

The textbook bit is annoying when it comes to first aid/CPR classes. I'm a Red Cross instructor and I'm pretty happy that they made it so that you can use either the textbook or the skill card when you teach. The skill card is way cheaper and presents the important information from the class in a much easier format.

CAPR 60-3 Requires First Aid Training to be NGFATOS or ASTM F 2171-02 compliant.  Both of those standards are designed for Occupational Settings and most employers don't issue certification cards to employees because of the costs involved.  There is not requirement under those standards that a Card is required, just that the training is documented.  Yes...teaching a class can meet the standards as set forth in CAP regulations without being a certifying class, but the Ground team task guide says that a Card must be carried...there is a contradiction or a fundamental misunderstanding between the two documents and I was just curious if it was really a REQUIREMENT to have the card.

[SARDOC]

Keep in mind that depending on your state's laws you may need to actually have some official certification in order to be covered by your Good Samaritan law. 

CAP knowledgebase:Link

No My state's Good Sam law protects "ANY PERSON" acting in good Faith without compensation...no certification necessary.  The Only reason our CAP members require the First Aid Requirement is that the Regulations require it.  Thanks

[Skydude61]

In order to pass the requirement for GTM, you need to have the first aid course...

Sorry

[SARDOC]

In order to pass the requirement for GTM, you need to have the first aid course...

Sorry

Yes, They must attend a First Aid Course.  That's not the question.  That is not in debate.  The Question is does that class need to provide a certification card?  The Ground Team Field Task guide says ground team members must have a Card on their person. However, CAP Regulations state that First Aid training must meet the Standards that are recognized by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration...Those Standards do not require the Issuance of a card...thus the rub.  Please read the above posts again.  Thanks

[mclarke]

Your best bet is to talk with your nearest red cross. Explain who you are, what you do, and see if you can get a deal of some sort. My squadron is actually lucky in one of our members is a red cross CPR/FirstAid/Wilderness First aid, etc... instructor (certified). My understanding is the Red Cross will charge 5.00/person if your instructor will teach it for free.

The other thing that may help (if regulations dont forbid this) is talk to your medical officer or another member interested and have someone get Firstaid/CPR instructor certified thru the red cross. Then you save  a lot of money.

[ol'fido]

The  American Heart Association and the Mine Safety and Health Administration can also provide instruction and cards. I don't do GT anymore but I have to take AHA First Aid/CPR every year for work.

[Spaceman3750]

Your best bet is to talk with your nearest red cross. Explain who you are, what you do, and see if you can get a deal of some sort. My squadron is actually lucky in one of our members is a red cross CPR/FirstAid/Wilderness First aid, etc... instructor (certified). My understanding is the Red Cross will charge 5.00/person if your instructor will teach it for free.

The other thing that may help (if regulations dont forbid this) is talk to your medical officer or another member interested and have someone get Firstaid/CPR instructor certified thru the red cross. Then you save  a lot of money.

Each ARC chapter will charge some fee to instructors teaching on an authorized provider agreement (not teaching for the chapter - APs can be a bugaboo depending on the instructor's chapter) per person in the class. There's also other costs like a skill card (can be printed), DVD rental (if you can't stream the videos in), student first aid kit, manequins (if doing CPR), etc. You can still do it pretty on the cheap, but more than $5 usually unless someone's eating a cost somewhere.

That reminds me, I need to do the bridging training to wilderness first aid.

[mclarke]

Eh, I think he has all his own training stuff for this. I am not sure, however, for us its 5/person. Decent deal.

[Spaceman3750]

Eh, I think he has all his own training stuff for this. I am not sure, however, for us its 5/person. Decent deal.

Yeah, that's not bad at all. I wish I could cut my members a deal like that here, I can get close by only doing first aid but a bunch need CPR too. Ends up being about $10 for first aid and $15-$20 for FA/CPR if I had to guess offhand.

[Eclipse]

I almost guarantee that if your "certifying agency" found out you were doing recerts for free they would tell you to knock it off.

The relatively low cost for materials insure that people taking the classes have current information, and in turn helps to fund the program
you are instructing for.

Further, if you aren't issuing a new card, you aren't re certifying anyone, which means their qualification is invalid and put you, the members, and
CAP, Inc. at unnecessary risk for liability should someone get hurt using the things you "taught" them.

[mclarke]

I almost guarantee that if your "certifying agency" found out you were doing recerts for free they would tell you to knock it off.

The relatively low cost for materials insure that people taking the classes have current information, and in turn helps to fund the program
you are instructing for.

Further, if you aren't issuing a new card, you aren't re certifying anyone, which means their qualification is invalid and put you, the members, and
CAP, Inc. at unnecessary risk for liability should someone get hurt using the things you "taught" them.

Well, our guy is thru the red cross and has permission to do this for us. The fee he does charge is for the red cross, and we do get issued a card.

[Eclipse]

I almost guarantee that if your "certifying agency" found out you were doing recerts for free they would tell you to knock it off.

The relatively low cost for materials insure that people taking the classes have current information, and in turn helps to fund the program
you are instructing for.

Further, if you aren't issuing a new card, you aren't re certifying anyone, which means their qualification is invalid and put you, the members, and
CAP, Inc. at unnecessary risk for liability should someone get hurt using the things you "taught" them.

Well, our guy is thru the red cross and has permission to do this for us. The fee he does charge is for the red cross, and we do get issued a card.

This was meant to the OP about using old materials and trying to re-up.   Whether it is $1 or $100, few if any certifying bodies are going to
issue a card and by that token back the certification without charging something.  How much is between the instructor and the certifying body.

Frankly I don't want my GTM's learning First Aid from the local EMT or "my mom who is a Nurse".  Those people may be good at their jobs, but
that have not been certified as instructors, and there's a big difference between "knowing" and "teaching".  I want an objective curriculum that
someone stands behind and that works to get even the disinterested in the back of the room to demonstrate the skill at least once.

Generally people looking to use "in-house" talent are doing so for expedience, and I don't want "expedience" in the same sentence with
a skill that may save a life (maybe mine).

[SARDOC]

I almost guarantee that if your "certifying agency" found out you were doing recerts for free they would tell you to knock it off.

The relatively low cost for materials insure that people taking the classes have current information, and in turn helps to fund the program
you are instructing for.

Further, if you aren't issuing a new card, you aren't re certifying anyone, which means their qualification is invalid and put you, the members, and
CAP, Inc. at unnecessary risk for liability should someone get hurt using the things you "taught" them.

The Agency I use doesn't care if you use their curriculum to teach to the standard without the instructor charging a fee...They make their money from the sale of the Cards/Books.

CAP Regulations don't require Ground Team Members to be "Certified"...They need to be "Trained".  That's the semantical argument.  CAP Regs state that it must meet the OSHA standards (which don't require certification) but do identify certain learning objectives.  Most "Certifications" go far above and beyond what is required in the Occupational Settings.  Ultimately what is required by Civil Air Patrol Regulations doesn't rise to the "Certification" level provided by most agencies.  First Aid Treatment in my state is protected by the Good Samaritan Law for Any Person acting in good faith.  There is no malpractice liability for care at the First Aid Level...that's why the Civil Air Patrol restricts us to that level.  So I'm not too sure where this Liability you are referring to comes from.  As an Instructor, I maintain a Syllabus for every class for Five Years and Identified as "FINAL AS TAUGHT"  As long as the instruction met the Standard and doesn't exceed their scope of practice...their is no liability on my part.

My original question isn't about using old materials.  I'll be using the new required standard.  I just attended a First Aid Instructor update so the material being used is valid.   I have taught First Aid Classes in occupational settings which are tailored to the customer which is authorized by the Standards adopted by reference in CAPR 60-3.  The Only requirements CAP has is it must be at least 4 hours and Contain a practical evolution.  Most certifications require usually an 8 hour class.  My Original Question is...Is there a real requirement for a GTM to Possess a certification card?  Thanks

[EMT-83]

Thus the age-old question: are task guides regulatory? CAPR 60-3 is clearly regulatory, but doesn't require a card.

[SARDOC]

Thus the age-old question: are task guides regulatory? CAPR 60-3 is clearly regulatory, but doesn't require a card.

Yes.  That is the ultimate question.  I want to provide the training to our members at as low a cost as I can.  Some have opted to get the card because they need it for their employment so they have to buy the book/card, but we have a group of cadets who cannot afford the book/card but that's the last thing to complete their GTM3 and they have no other real need to possess a card.  They will attend the same class, perform the same practicals just won't get the card

[davidsinn]

My Original Question is...Is there a real requirement for a GTM to Possess a certification card?  Thanks

The answer is: It depends. I can't speak for your wing but my wing does require a card to be issued to meet the requirement. I think that's a good requirement because it ensures everyone is trained to approximately the same standard.

[SARDOC]

My Original Question is...Is there a real requirement for a GTM to Possess a certification card?  Thanks

The answer is: It depends. I can't speak for your wing but my wing does require a card to be issued to meet the requirement. I think that's a good requirement because it ensures everyone is trained to approximately the same standard.

In an Ideal situation, I agree...I would love for everyone to get the Book/Card but we have a few cadets who participate in the program who don't come from a financially stable situation.  We have one who delivers newspapers before school and all his money goes to support his CAP activities as well as other school activities.  I admire the hardwork and dedication these kids put in to our program and if I can save them a few bucks while meeting the requirements...I'm just doing my due diligence.  I received authorization from the Wing ES officer to host the Class and I can either submit cards or a class roster for entry into OPSQUALS.

Also Full disclosure...I hate taking money, issuing receipts and accounting for all that money...It's a hassle I can live without.  I'm looking at hosting 30 people in three separate classes to maintain student/instructor ratios...and it becomes problematic.  I was just trying to reconcile my understanding of the Regs vs. my understanding of the Task Guide .


I thank everyone for their input it is appreciated

[Eclipse]

They will attend the same class, perform the same practicals just won't get the card

Then they won't be certified, by your certification body's standards or your wings.

If they seriously can't come up with $13 for a First Aid book, then CAP may not be a good choice for them, or at least not ES.

[SARDOC]

They will attend the same class, perform the same practicals just won't get the card

Then they won't be certified, by your certification body's standards or your wings.

If they seriously can't come up with $13 for a First Aid book, then CAP may not be a good choice for them, or at least not ES.

If you provide a reference to why it wouldn't meet my wing's standards I'd appreciate it.

Granted they will not be certified by the certifying agency I use...But I don't see any documentation In CAP regulations or in my wing's Operating Instructions that require certification at all.   That might be true in your wing but in communications with my wing ES officer it does not appear to be an established requirement in my wing.  The Only Reference I find is in the Field Team Task Guide saying that in addition to their CAP id card, 101 card they must have a First Aid Card (no requirement for it to be current) 

Which brings me back to my original question...which has precedent the CAP Regulations (which doesn't require certification or a card) or the Task guide (which does require a card)?

[RADIOMAN015]

They will attend the same class, perform the same practicals just won't get the card

Then they won't be certified, by your certification body's standards or your wings.

If they seriously can't come up with $13 for a First Aid book, then CAP may not be a good choice for them, or at least not ES.

The American Heart Association First Aid Course is all done by multi media presentation  and a few paper handouts (which we copied on the unit's copy machine) and can be done for much less cost than the American Red Cross Course. :clap:

Locally I called the ARC last year to the course coordinator and left a message about the possibility of getting a CAP specific class and the possibility of getting a non profit discount.  Never heard back from him .  ARC can take a big leap into the pond as far as I'm concerned with this first aid training program    As far as CAP doing any joint operations with them, personally I'd be very careful and locally it's likely I wouldn't participate.

I think we have an obligation to the membership (especially cadets) to try to get requirements completed at the least amount of cost to the individual or unit.

RM       

[jimmydeanno]

must have a First Aid Card (no requirement for it to be current) 

Really...what exactly would be the point, then? 

[SARDOC]

must have a First Aid Card (no requirement for it to be current) 

Really...what exactly would be the point, then?

I'm not sure...which goes to the whole point that the regulation doesn't require us to be certified to begin with.

[Spaceman3750]

They will attend the same class, perform the same practicals just won't get the card

Then they won't be certified, by your certification body's standards or your wings.

If they seriously can't come up with $13 for a First Aid book, then CAP may not be a good choice for them, or at least not ES.

The American Heart Association First Aid Course is all done by multi media presentation  and a few paper handouts (which we copied on the unit's copy machine) and can be done for much less cost than the American Red Cross Course. :clap:

Locally I called the ARC last year to the course coordinator and left a message about the possibility of getting a CAP specific class and the possibility of getting a non profit discount.  Never heard back from him .  ARC can take a big leap into the pond as far as I'm concerned with this first aid training program    As far as CAP doing any joint operations with them, personally I'd be very careful and locally it's likely I wouldn't participate.

I think we have an obligation to the membership (especially cadets) to try to get requirements completed at the least amount of cost to the individual or unit.

RM     

Around here AHA courses and instructors are much lower quality than ARC. I attribute that in part to the fact that the AHA instructor course is 8 hours and ARCs is 24 hours.

[Eclipse]

They will attend the same class, perform the same practicals just won't get the card

Then they won't be certified, by your certification body's standards or your wings.

If they seriously can't come up with $13 for a First Aid book, then CAP may not be a good choice for them, or at least not ES.

If you provide a reference to why it wouldn't meet my wing's standards I'd appreciate it.

Granted they will not be certified by the certifying agency I use...

You answered your own question - absent the standing of the certifying body, you might as well have the Fry Guy at McDonald's teach the class.

You're reaching for the 6th grade "you can't make me argument".

[HGjunkie]

Around here AHA courses and instructors are much lower quality than ARC. I attribute that in part to the fact that the AHA instructor course is 8 hours and ARCs is 24 hours.

The ARC branch near where I live teaches combination 1st Aid/CPR/AED classes that last longer than 8 hours. Instructors should have more training than 8 hours.

[Eclipse]

Around here AHA courses and instructors are much lower quality than ARC. I attribute that in part to the fact that the AHA instructor course is 8 hours and ARCs is 24 hours.

The ARC branch near where I live teaches combination 1st Aid/CPR/AED classes that last longer than 8 hours. Instructors should have more training than 8 hours.

I agree - most classes I've had are 4 hours for "Community Level" First Aid, and another 4 (at least) for the CPR/AED, and even that feels rushed.  I can't imagine teaching novices how to do and teach the skills, not to mention the administrative tasks related to being an instructor, in an 8 hour class and having anything but poor results.

In these parts we have an AIH instructor who generally teaches our member for cost, which is $10 for the book.  You generally can't get a decent class at a hospital or similar for less that $35 to $50.

SARDOC, if you're providing compliant instruction for $13.50, they should thank you and you should stop worrying about it.

[Spaceman3750]

Around here AHA courses and instructors are much lower quality than ARC. I attribute that in part to the fact that the AHA instructor course is 8 hours and ARCs is 24 hours.

The ARC branch near where I live teaches combination 1st Aid/CPR/AED classes that last longer than 8 hours. Instructors should have more training than 8 hours.

You're right, they do. ARC Basic FA/CPR/AED instructor training is 24 hours (there's several components). To teach wilderness FA (a 16 hour course) we have to complete bridge training (right now it's an online thing but it is going to be changing in the next couple of months to a 4-6 hour classroom course).

[HGjunkie]

Also, $13.50 is relatively cheap. I had to do my training for 1st aid and CPR/AED classes for $20 apiece (2 separate classes), and that is a huge discount down here. And I agree with Eclipse, I feel the classes were rushed to the point where the instructor had to trim out material we would have otherwise covered.

[Spaceman3750]

Also, $13.50 is relatively cheap. I had to do my training for 1st aid and CPR/AED classes for $20 apiece (2 separate classes), and that is a huge discount down here. And I agree with Eclipse, I feel the classes were rushed to the point where the instructor had to trim out material we would have otherwise covered.

Even $20 is cheap. Most ARC chapters I've seen charge $40 for either First Aid or CPR/AED, mine will cut you a deal and you can get both for $50.

[SARDOC]

Also, $13.50 is relatively cheap. I had to do my training for 1st aid and CPR/AED classes for $20 apiece (2 separate classes), and that is a huge discount down here. And I agree with Eclipse, I feel the classes were rushed to the point where the instructor had to trim out material we would have otherwise covered.

I agree $13.50 is relatively cheap especially when it includes the brand new book.  I still intend on covering all of the material using the established syllabus.  But the regulations don't require the Certification so Free is even Cheaper than $13.50. 

[Eclipse]

I still intend on covering all of the material using the established syllabus.  But the regulations don't require the Certification so Free is even Cheaper than $13.50.

You can keep saying that if it makes you feel better, but that won't make it true.

At a minimum you must comply with whatever your Wing CC accepts as certification, because ultimately it'll be his designate
that has to approve the rating(s).

Don't waste your member's time and good feeling just to try and make a point that won't stand up anyway.

Were I the GBD and they showed up to a mission without a current FA card, they would be sent home.  Yo keep trying to make the point about
victims not wanting to see the card before they are helped, which is irrelevant, documentation of qualifications is supposed to be displayed
at mission check in and verified.  The fact that the cards may be entered into eServices to ease that process doesn't change the requirement
to have them, and an expired card, like an expired driver's license, is useless.

One of the reasons the cards are required is to insure that skills are regularly refreshed.

[Spaceman3750]

Were I the GBD and they showed up to a mission without a current FA card, they would be sent home.

You would really spend time checking first aid cards? If they're GTM3 we assume they've completed the training...

That said - I need to put my cards into my ID packet, I just keep forgetting.

[Eclipse]

Were I the GBD and they showed up to a mission without a current FA card, they would be sent home.

You would really spend time checking first aid cards? If they're GTM3 we assume they've completed the training...

Yes, I check when I am a GTL, and expect them to be checked when I am GBD.
Being a GTM3 today, doesn't mean your certifications didn't expire, it only means they were valid at the time of the sign-off.
Whether it is First Aid, Radio card, CAP DL, or even basic membership, there are certain reasonable bare-minimum expectations
we have to meet if we want to play.  It is a big part of what differentiates us from ES vigilantes, and in turn a big part of our value
to our customers - we proved professionalized personnel, trained to a standard, and vetted for their ability to perform.

What's being missed here as well, or ignored, is the protection against liability.  In order to be protected you have to be
fully-compliant, miss a thing here or there and you're opening yourself up unnecessarily to being disavowed by the corporation.

[SARDOC]

CAPR 60-3 states

When first aid or higher medical
training is required for qualification in a particular specialty, the expectation is that the
qualification course includes both knowledge and practical skills training; first aid courses taken
on-line only are not acceptable; though members are not considered employees when supporting
operations, courses are expected to meet the National Guidelines for First Aid in Occupational
Settings available at  http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/24000/24700/24757/ngfatos.pdf or ASTM F 2171-02,
Standard Guide for Defining the Performance of First Aid Providers in Occupational Settings.

I think when someone wrote this regulation they were completely phoning it in.  The Referenced standards contain many loopholes and exemptions.  These documents are specifically designed to be so flexible so that they are adopted by certifying agencies who are attempting to meet OSHA standards who states that First Aid training should be tailored to meet the most common hazard found in an employers worksite.  OSHA does not require certification but does mandate training.  OSHA and the referenced standards don't require certification because of the cost of maintaining those certifications.

The only real reference to certification in the NGFATOS is the below quote.

The purpose of occupationally regulated first aid training for laypersons should be to educate, not
to test or certify competence

It does say that a card "SHOULD" be issued but that the minimum is that the training should be documented.  The referenced documents themselves even say they are not regulatory but consensus documents.  What gives them the force of regulation that impacts Civil Air Patrol is their adoption by CAPR 60-3 which only requires knowledge and practical skills training. 

Eclipse, as far as your Liability concerns CAPR 60-3 States "CAP medical personnel are not provided supplemental malpractice insurance coverage, and any
care provided is at the members own risk."  That statement in itself shifts liability away from the Corporation and onto the individual member which is why the quote above specifically states that members are not considered employees when conducting operations...specifically because as a citizen not in the course of their employment is covered by the Good Samaritan Law in most states...So I still don't see where your liability argument holds water.

I understand that as a GTL you conduct a gear check and that if a member poses a risk because they are unprepared for the environment that they would be denied.  I don't think that not having a First Aid card should diminish your team's capability and as far as "sending them Home" I think that exceeds your authority as a GTL.  You should at a minimum consult the GBD asking the member be reassigned to another position in the mission or if there is no other choice consult the Incident Commander because that is the only level where a responder should be excused in the ICS system.

[SARDOC]

We do not require them to take a specific organization's courses or get specific certificates - there really are a variety of options across the country. Our intention is for personnel to meet and document completion of some basic standards.

Found on CAP Knowledgebase from statement from JOHN W. DESMARAIS, Sr. Deputy Director, Operations

Nothing about requiring certification...Hmm

[Eclipse]

Eclipse, as far as your Liability concerns CAPR 60-3 States "CAP medical personnel are not provided supplemental malpractice insurance coverage, and any care provided is at the members own risk."  That statement in itself shifts liability away from the Corporation and onto the individual member which is why the quote above specifically states that members are not considered employees when conducting operations...specifically because as a citizen not in the course of their employment is covered by the Good Samaritan Law in most states...So I still don't see where your liability argument holds water.

This is not about the medical ability or training, per se, it is about being qualified to be there at all, and the SQTR's say you have to be trained and current in basic first aid.  The way CAP substantiates that is through outside organizations who provide the training and accept the risk.

Liability?  You think an incorrectly treated person isn't going to sue CAP and the organization that provided the training?  Properly credentialed and
trained, CAP, Inc., can potentially remove itself from a lawsuit on the grounds that you state - we don't provide medical training, but instead send our
people to "x", so it's "X's" fault if the band-aids were put on upside down, etc.

If we provide in-house, non-certified training, it's all on CAP, Inc.

I understand that as a GTL you conduct a gear check and that if a member poses a risk because they are unprepared for the environment that they would be denied.  I don't think that not having a First Aid card should diminish your team's capability and as far as "sending them Home" I think that exceeds your authority as a GTL.  You should at a minimum consult the GBD asking the member be reassigned to another position in the mission or if there is no other choice consult the Incident Commander because that is the only level where a responder should be excused in the ICS system.

Obviously if they can be utilized elsewhere, so be it, they just aren't going to need their 24 pack that day.

We do not require them to take a specific organization's courses or get specific certificates - there really are a variety of options across the country. Our intention is for personnel to meet and document completion of some basic standards.

Found on CAP Knowledgebase from statement from JOHN W. DESMARAIS, Sr. Deputy Director, Operations

Nothing about requiring certification...Hmm

You're reading that with a filter to skew it to your argument.

CAP, Inc., does not endorse a specific organization, there are a number you can choose, but you have to choose one.  The ultimate decision is not
yours or even John's, it is up to your Wing CC (and by delegation, likely the Wing's ESO or Ops Dir) to decide if they will accept the training
provided.  Rare is the wing which will allow non-certified training, and non-existent is a wing that won't accept it.

Bottom line, it's their call, and you will likely be wasting your member's time to save a few bucks when the ratings are denied.

And seriously, to what end?  $13.00?  Just buy the books, give them cards and move on. Your member's time worth a lot more than $13.00, and whatever goodwill you think yo are going to engender by saving them the cost of a few cups of coffee is going to go right out the window when they
find out they have to retake the First Aid class to get those badges.

[SARDOC]

This is not about the medical ability or training, per se, it is about being qualified to be there at all, and the SQTR's say you have to be trained and current in basic first aid.  The way CAP substantiates that is through outside organizations who provide the training and accept the risk.

Agreed...the SQTR does state they must be trained.  But with no Definition of what Basic First Aid is, It could be open to interpretation because their are absolutely no references to it in either the CAPR or in the referenced documents.  Also their is nothing that defines "Currency"  One agency provides certifications for two years...another for three and another for five years.  There are no standards to identify currency or an adequate refresher period.

Liability?  You think an incorrectly treated person isn't going to sue CAP and the organization that provided the training?  Properly credentialed and
trained, CAP, Inc., can potentially remove itself from a lawsuit on the grounds that you state - we don't provide medical training, but instead send our
people to "x", so it's "X's" fault if the band-aids were put on upside down, etc.

If we provide in-house, non-certified training, it's all on CAP, Inc.

When an incorrectly treated person sues..they are going to sue everybody, when CAP inc...gets involved they will point to the reg stating the member was trained IAW referenced standards and that any care provided is the responsibility of the member.  If I get called as the instructor, I bring copy of my class syllabus, course roster of attendance and copy of the standard that my course was taught to.  If the member deviated from the instruction at all it's their responsibility because as an instructor I can not be held responsible for the actions of the member...when it gets to the individual member as long as the care they provided was in "good faith" they are protected by the Good Sam law.  Malpractice cases are almost impossible to prove anyway they must prove three elements  1. Duty to Act (we are not a First Response agency so this doesn't apply to us) 2. Member failed to perform to the accepted standard (we don't have one defined)  3. That the Action of the member was the direct cause of harm to the patient (very hard to do that at the first aid level unless the member practices beyond their scope)   Also the First Aid standard doesn't even teach the application of adhesive bandages so if one get applied incorrectly it's not an instruction issue and I doubt that would result in direct harm to the patient.

We do not require them to take a specific organization's courses or get specific certificates - there really are a variety of options across the country. Our intention is for personnel to meet and document completion of some basic standards.

Found on CAP Knowledgebase from statement from JOHN W. DESMARAIS, Sr. Deputy Director, Operations

Nothing about requiring certification...Hmm

You're reading that with a filter to skew it to your argument.

CAP, Inc., does not endorse a specific organization, there are a number you can choose, but you have to choose one.  The ultimate decision is not
yours or even John's, it is up to your Wing CC (and by delegation, likely the Wing's ESO or Ops Dir) to decide if they will accept the training
provided.  Rare is the wing which will allow non-certified training, and non-existent is a wing that won't accept it.

Bottom line, it's their call, and you will likely be wasting your member's time to save a few bucks when the ratings are denied.

And seriously, to what end?  $13.00?  Just buy the books, give them cards and move on. Your member's time worth a lot more than $13.00, and whatever goodwill you think yo are going to engender by saving them the cost of a few cups of coffee is going to go right out the window when they
find out they have to retake the First Aid class to get those badges.

Sorry...I did kinda Cherry pick that statement primarily because it stated they don't require a specific certificate.

Please cite where I have to have a certifying agency or even a regulation that requires GTM's to be in possession of a First Aid Card.  My Wing must be one of those rare one's because my wing ESO got approval from the CC for me to teach First Aid and I was given the option of using a canned program or creating my own as long as it met the standards referenced in CAPR 60-3.  My intention is to meet the requirements set forth in the regulations not some artificial perceived standard because that's the way your wing does it.  I am using a canned program...just not issuing a card.  Your state may also require certification to be covered by Good Sam...My state does not.

I do appreciate your enthusiasm and your opinion and don't mean to be argumentative but we will have to agree to disagree.

[BillB]

I completed the First Responder Course offered through my local Community College. It's I beleieve a 42 hour course way above the ARC first Aid Course. At the end you are a Certified First Responder. They issue a certificate, not a card. How would CAP handle that? Make me go back through a first aid course which covers less than half of what the First Responder includes?

[Eclipse]

I completed the First Responder Course offered through my local Community College. It's I beleieve a 42 hour course way above the ARC first Aid Course. At the end you are a Certified First Responder. They issue a certificate, not a card. How would CAP handle that? Make me go back through a first aid course which covers less than half of what the First Responder includes?

Make a copy of the cert and fold it into your ID carrier or wallet?

[BillB]

Eclipse see next post my computer posted before anything was typed

[BillB]

Eclipse
That doesn't answer the question. Since the regulation says "first aid" card, does Certified First Responder, or even EMT or Paramedic count. I doubt the average GBD or IC would accept anything except a First Aid card. If the regulations said First Aid card or higher, it would count, but it doesn't say that. It requires a First Aid Card.

[JayT]

It's it just a better idea to issue the cards so that cadets can use them outside of CAP?

[Eclipse]

Eclipse
That doesn't answer the question. Since the regulation says "first aid" card, does Certified First Responder, or even EMT or Paramedic count. I doubt the average GBD or IC would accept anything except a First Aid card. If the regulations said First Aid card or higher, it would count, but it doesn't say that. It requires a First Aid Card.

O-0001  PREPARE GROUND TEAM INDIVIDUAL EQUIPMENT

2. The gear list below is the minimum required equipment.  Items required of trainees are marked with a "T." 
You may carry additional equipment subject to team leader approval and your ability to secure and carry it --
remember, you may have to walk a long way carrying it all.   
a.  24 hour pack
  1)  On your person:
      a)  Complete BDU uniform with BDU cap.  The BDU cap may be replaced by a hard hat
or bright colored cap based on mission needs.(T)
   b)  Notepad and pencil (T)
   c) All CAP Identification, including 101 card, 76 card, First Aid card, etc. (T)

As to the specifics of which training is acceptable, that is up to your wing's ESO.  None in their right mind is going to say "no" to FR, or a Paramedic license. 

But to those who say the "regs" don't require it, see above, and I am not interested in another "M" vs "R" argument.

[RRLE]

2. The gear list below is the minimum required equipment.
.
.
.
c) All CAP Identification, including 101 card, 76 card, First Aid card, etc. (T)

A First Aid card is the minimum required. It is not the only thing that meets the requirement. Commonsense and plain English make it obvious that any 'card' above the minimum also meets the requirement.

[SARDOC]

2. The gear list below is the minimum required equipment.
.
.
.
c) All CAP Identification, including 101 card, 76 card, First Aid card, etc. (T)

A First Aid card is the minimum required. It is not the only thing that meets the requirement. Commonsense and plain English make it obvious that any 'card' above the minimum also meets the requirement.

The Ultimate question is do those Task Guides Referenced above have the force of Regulation???

That same Statement says that a 76 Card is required in addition to a First Aid Card but CAPR 100-1 says that that Wings no longer even need  to issue a 76 card...which my wing does not.  So according to your common sense every GTM in my wing is unqualified because they don't even get issued a 76 card.

I'm thinking the Task Guide is exactly that "a Guide" to help people in the right direction but that Regulation supersedes (overrules) Task guides.  This is one of those examples where regulations conflict

[RiverAux]

Seeing as how the regulations specifically require the use of the SQTRs to become and stay qualified and seeing as how the SQTRS are linked to the task guides there is no actual difference between them and the regulation.  Unless you know of a way for me to become GTM qualified without meeting all the SQTR requirements which are based on the task guide. 

[SARDOC]

Seeing as how the regulations specifically require the use of the SQTRs to become and stay qualified and seeing as how the SQTRS are linked to the task guides there is no actual difference between them and the regulation.  Unless you know of a way for me to become GTM qualified without meeting all the SQTR requirements which are based on the task guide.

But Which takes precedence when they conflict?   

[SARDOC]

must have a First Aid Card (no requirement for it to be current) 

Really...what exactly would be the point, then?

Not Sure but CAPR 60-3 states "Most formal courses do not have to be re-accomplished though some are recommended like first aid training."

[RiverAux]

I don't see where there is any conflict in this case.  So long as you have some sort of proof of taking a First Aid course (or something more comprehensive) then that meets the requirement even if it isn't a "card". 

And if there is a conflict between any regulations (which happens), report it to your chain of command and let them decide how to address it and hopefully they will push it up the line to the people who can actually resolve the conflict by revising the regulations.

[SARDOC]

I don't see where there is any conflict in this case.  So long as you have some sort of proof of taking a First Aid course (or something more comprehensive) then that meets the requirement even if it isn't a "card". 

And if there is a conflict between any regulations (which happens), report it to your chain of command and let them decide how to address it and hopefully they will push it up the line to the people who can actually resolve the conflict by revising the regulations.

Thanks...That was my ultimate point is that documentation of training is sufficient not that they have to have a "certification card" from some third party organization with the way the regulations are currently written.

I am drafting a request to my CC to update CAPR 60-3 to clarify the first aid training requirement to require certification because I think all will be served better in the long run.  Also it should have an Appendix to what are acceptable First Aid equivalents right now it's arbitrary to the approving authority and talk about opening yourself up to liability. 

Thanks for the input.

[RADIOMAN015]

Ideally, I think it is a good idea to get a trained professional to present the first aid/cpr classes to the membership.  HOWEVER, as soon as you start to say that it has to be American Red Cross, American Heart Association, or specific other organizations, you are limiting what a local unit, (many that are living on a shoe string budget) can put together.  I know the AF has a self aid & buddy care first aid training  see:
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFH36-2218V2.pdf for the student workbook, which perhaps those on an AF type base might be able to get an instructor for.   Also sometimes the base fire department might give some training.
Perhaps even Army National Guard/Reserve units also have the same type of training.
RM

[sarmed1]

I have used the self aid and buddy care course to meet the first aid objective in the past.  The only stumbling block is that a portion of the course is online.  The referenced AFH is no longer the current training program.  I believe there is a provision for direct instruction, even as a SABC instructor I am not sure (these things seem to change on a monthly basis for the AF...)

In a perfect world (especially for those that are on or near and AF/ANG base) you may even be able to get your HSO's trained as SABC instructors, and can then teach to your unit whenever you need, including refreshers.  Either way coordination with your state director or local CAP-RAP personel would be needed to make it happen. (obviously barring a in CAP unit member with the right contacts/connections)

mk

[CadetProgramGuy]

Its all based on level of care.  IMO and in my workplace, (i got the rolled eyes for this...)  If you have a higher level of training than first aid, such as FR, EMT, or Paramedic, you will not have to produce a first aid card.  First aid is covered in these courses.

Hence......I am a Paramedic, would I really benefit from a First aid course?  Probably not because every 2 years i am required to attend 70+ hours of classes in areas of Medical emergencies, Trauma Emergencies, and a host of other topics to include bleeding and shock management.

And I am pretty sure I know how to apply a bandaid.

Cheers!!

CPG