Ranger teams

[EMT-83]

Sorry, but my experience is the same.

It's really too bad, because Hawk could be a great experience for cadets. I'm just tired of the constant BS with bling, ranger rolls and orange tee shirts.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

If a GT calls themselves Rangers, does it really affect you? I couldn't imagine how it would, it may have and effect on your ears, but oh well, are they going against any regulations? So long as no one really puts that "Ranger Tab" on their uniform some of you keep talking about (which I have never even seen a picture of one let alone one in person) let alone wearing a real Ranger Tab above their wing or squadron patch then no real harm done except to someones ego.

So long as they aren't going against regulations by wearing a tab or anything just let it go.

Just walking away from someone because you have a stereotype of someone with certain training just makes you look like a jerk.

[SarDragon]

I was in NJWG WIWAC, not too long after Hawk Mountain started up. On those occasions where there was interaction between the two wings, even back then there was friction because of poor attitudes on the part of Hawk graduates.

The problem has little to do with the Ranger name, and much to do with attitudes. Remember that, attitudes.

[commando1]

 That is exactly the point, attitude. The cadets that really want a "Ranger" team are all GT qualified. They want a cooler title and perhaps some "specialized" PT. All it does IMHO, is promote an elite unit within a squadron, group or wing.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

If wanting to use the term Ranger makes them want to train harder cool. It will just do that, cause them to want to train harder and be better at the job.

[arajca]

All it does IMHO, is promote an elite unit within a squadron, group or wing.

That is EXACTLY the problem. When you start having 'elite' teams, they don't want to work with 'non-elite' teams, or will do reluctantly while constantly complaining about not being able to show off their 'eliteness'.

You'll wind up with a team that either gets all the calls so other 'non-elite' teams do not get called or a team that is such a pain in the backside that they never get called. Either way, the notion of CAP as a team fails.

[sarmed1]

You'll wind up with a team that either gets all the calls so other 'non-elite' teams do not get called.....

You had me right there with you until that statement.   I am going to have to disagree a bit there.  We are talking Emergency Services here; ie life and death, this is not some sort of let everyone have a turn, get a pat on the back feel good about yourself excercise.  If there is a team out there, CAP, fire, EMS LE etc etc, that does the job, better, faster or brings better skills and equipment to the table I am going to call them over other mediocre teams..... its about accomplishig the mission and doing to the best interest of the patient, (or whatever setting we are talking) not about making someone feel better about themselves. 
I was once in a squadron that we had that kind of reputation; neighboring wings would call for assistance from our wing and ask for us specifically over other units.  Why? Because we proved that we could do the job, do it better than the next guy and do it consistantly.  It had nothing with being elite, wearing berets, being Rangers or whatever..... we knew our job, were good at it and were respected for it.

mk

[arajca]

I was once in a squadron that we had that kind of reputation; neighboring wings would call for assistance from our wing and ask for us specifically over other units.  Why? Because we proved that we could do the job, do it better than the next guy and do it consistantly.  It had nothing with being elite, wearing berets, being Rangers or whatever..... we knew our job, were good at it and were respected for it.

mk

So, what incentive did other units have to improve to your level since they knew they would never be called upon as long as you were around?

[a2capt]

Bingo. .. when the IC calls on specific teams even, from a specific unit, two things happen. They get burned out eventually, and everyone else nearly, will just say screw it. Why bother, because if you do get "accepted" to their mission, you are usually harshed on, over the air. Questioned, and doubted when you give bearings, intel, etc, back to the IC.

...and yes, another tick for the "I've had to deal with past 'ranger' school attendees thinking they were something that the rest of us were not", and it's not fun.

We've got a lot of interest in ES from the cadets all of a sudden, and I'm going to see about taking advantage of it, at least for training interests sake, for SAREX participation. As for actual missions, it's darn hard to deploy cadets unless their parent/s is/are involved too. Between school (comes first) and having to be "in" earlier in the evening than the rest of us, it does present a challenge.  It's not the 1950s anymore where they would send a cadet ground team up a freezing mountain to a wreck and the school would let them go do it.

[fyrfitrmedic]

Hosetly, I can't say if they've changed in the past few years since everytime I see one headed my way, I leave. My experience is they aren't worth talking to, so I don't. YMMV.

This comes off as unprofessional and a bit petty, and I'm not sure that's how you meant to come off.

[arajca]

Hosetly, I can't say if they've changed in the past few years since everytime I see one headed my way, I leave. My experience is they aren't worth talking to, so I don't. YMMV.

This comes off as unprofessional and a bit petty, and I'm not sure that's how you meant to come off.

If all of your experience with a particular group has been that they are egostical jerks, do you (provided you have the option) keep dealing with them or do you, at some point, decide enough is enough?

[JC004]

Hosetly, I can't say if they've changed in the past few years since everytime I see one headed my way, I leave. My experience is they aren't worth talking to, so I don't. YMMV.

This comes off as unprofessional and a bit petty, and I'm not sure that's how you meant to come off.

If all of your experience with a particular group has been that they are egostical jerks, do you (provided you have the option) keep dealing with them or do you, at some point, decide enough is enough?

How many of these jerks have there been?

[RADIOMAN015]

We've got a lot of interest in ES from the cadets all of a sudden, and I'm going to see about taking advantage of it, at least for training interests sake, for SAREX participation. As for actual missions, it's darn hard to deploy cadets unless their parent/s is/are involved too. Between school (comes first) and having to be "in" earlier in the evening than the rest of us, it does present a challenge.  It's not the 1950s anymore where they would send a cadet ground team up a freezing mountain to a wreck and the school would let them go do it.

All of this "ranger" and ES ground team training is really nothing more than a cadet membership retention tool.  At least here in the NER, the parents of cadets that get involved in this can spend $200+ to equip the cadet to meet all these CAP requirements when it is unlikely the cadets will ever be called out.
My view is to be right up front with the parents & tell them that this is strictly training and it is VERY unlikely (at least in our wing) of ever being called out.  HOWEVER, who knows even 5-10 years down the road a situation may come up where this training may save a life.

It is interesting as to the number of cadets (and of course cadets parents) that are supportive in this training.   

I would agree that at least some individuals that are graduates of "ranger training schools" and even NESA seem to think that they know it all, and that can be dangerous in training as well as any actual missions.
RM

[IceNine]

We've seen this sort of elitist crap in the past.

  The issue isn't with them training together or focusing solely on thier training.  The issue is that when they start to feel "special" they think either the rules don't apply to them, or that they are trained to do it differently.

  What you wind up with is a group of people who have been led to believe they can perform functions outside the scope.  They start to believe that they are medical teams or whatever.  And who's to check them?  They won't let anyone else in, and they aren't going to talk...

If you want to be "elite" train anyone that wants to learn better, faster, harder and help them earn the trust of the staff and commander's that surround them.

[cap235629]

We've got a lot of interest in ES from the cadets all of a sudden, and I'm going to see about taking advantage of it, at least for training interests sake, for SAREX participation. As for actual missions, it's darn hard to deploy cadets unless their parent/s is/are involved too. Between school (comes first) and having to be "in" earlier in the evening than the rest of us, it does present a challenge.  It's not the 1950s anymore where they would send a cadet ground team up a freezing mountain to a wreck and the school would let them go do it.

All of this "ranger" and ES ground team training is really nothing more than a cadet membership retention tool.  At least here in the NER, the parents of cadets that get involved in this can spend $200+ to equip the cadet to meet all these CAP requirements when it is unlikely the cadets will ever be called out.
My view is to be right up front with the parents & tell them that this is strictly training and it is VERY unlikely (at least in our wing) of ever being called out.  HOWEVER, who knows even 5-10 years down the road a situation may come up where this training may save a life.

It is interesting as to the number of cadets (and of course cadets parents) that are supportive in this training.   

I would agree that at least some individuals that are graduates of "ranger training schools" and even NESA seem to think that they know it all, and that can be dangerous in training as well as any actual missions.
RM

Massachusetts is a VERY UNIQUE place in everything.  In this wing, Ground Teams are used just as much as Air Crews.  Our Ground Teams are probably a 50/50 mix statewide.

I moved away from Massachusetts for a reason and every time I read one of your posts it becomes abundantly clear as to what it is...........

[a2capt]

I didn't cite anything about MA, and I hope striking while the iron is hot isn't something 'bad', as .. thats all I was conveying.

[arajca]

How many of these jerks have there been?

10-15. That's the total that I've met.

I know it's a smal percentage, but none I've met have proven otherwise.

[fyrfitrmedic]

Hosetly, I can't say if they've changed in the past few years since everytime I see one headed my way, I leave. My experience is they aren't worth talking to, so I don't. YMMV.

This comes off as unprofessional and a bit petty, and I'm not sure that's how you meant to come off.

If all of your experience with a particular group has been that they are egostical jerks, do you (provided you have the option) keep dealing with them or do you, at some point, decide enough is enough?

If I were to follow such an example, I might as well just live in a hut as a hermit and associate with nobody at all; there are jerks in all walks of life - millions of 'em out there, in fact.

[DakRadz]

Hosetly, I can't say if they've changed in the past few years since everytime I see one headed my way, I leave. My experience is they aren't worth talking to, so I don't. YMMV.

This comes off as unprofessional and a bit petty, and I'm not sure that's how you meant to come off.

If all of your experience with a particular group has been that they are egostical jerks, do you (provided you have the option) keep dealing with them or do you, at some point, decide enough is enough?

If I were to follow such an example, I might as well just live in a hut as a hermit and associate with nobody at all; there are jerks in all walks of life - millions of 'em out there, in fact.

There was this medic I met one time...

The problem is the older ones who allow/encourage these negative attitudes in younger cadets; a new cadet is moldable, and they will conform to standards that are sound, valid, and desirable with a bit of work.

They'll conform to Rambo with the smallest bit of leeway. And it all starts with the cadets.

P.S. I love Firefox- it saved this text even though I accidentally the page.

[HGjunkie]

P.S. I love Firefox- it saved this text even though I accidentally the page.

I see what you did there.