Just getting some best practices from other wings. As you all know, pyrotechnic signaling devices are allowed as part of the survival equipment of aircrews. I have seen members carrying pen flares, others carry flares pistols and so on. CAPR 900-3 prohibits carrying firearms during CAP activities. For purposes of CAPR 900-3, do you consider a Pyrotechnic Signaling Device in the form of a flares pistol a firearm/weapon?
It is not what we think....but what does your wing CC and/or SE think.
Personally I don't think Pen Flares as part of surival gear is what 900-3 is was trying to control.
No thanks.
In a CAP context they will never be needed, but that sure are tempting to "try"...
Some states consider flare guns a firearm and/or prohibit pyrotechnic visual distress signals in their boating laws.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 23, 2011, 02:37:42 PM
No thanks.
In a CAP context they will never be needed, but that sure are tempting to "try"...
I guess that that "CAP Context" is kind of limited. What about ditching in the ocean @ 4AM in a Counterdrug mission. I bet you taking out CAPR 900-3 will not help me signal a USCG helicopter.
Light it on fire... it should show up good on the FLIR.
Quote from: Capination on May 23, 2011, 03:38:11 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 23, 2011, 02:37:42 PM
No thanks.
In a CAP context they will never be needed, but that sure are tempting to "try"...
I guess that that "CAP Context" is kind of limited. What about ditching in the ocean @ 4AM in a Counterdrug mission. I bet you taking out CAPR 900-3 will not help me signal a USCG helicopter.
If you ditch a Cessna in the Ocean at 4am, you are not likely to have enough left of you to be able to fire a flare. I doubt there is too much
CD work over the ocean at 4am, either.
So we only plan our survival gear for the most likely situaitons?
Why do we even have survival gear in the first place.....I mean in most contexts you will: a) Not crash at all b) Not surivive the crash c) Crash during day light hours only one hour from rescure (yeah right!)
I know that NVWG has pen flares in their aircraft survival gear....so you can signal the rescure teams during hours of darkness.
Who cares what the regs are in that instance. Keep it hidden in your bag, and someone with you may thank you later. Easier to get forgiveness than permission...
Quote from: pilot2b on May 23, 2011, 05:03:05 PM
Who cares what the regs are in that instance. Keep it hidden in your bag, and someone with you may thank you later. Easier to get forgiveness than permission...
Integrity?
Quote from: pilot2b on May 23, 2011, 05:03:05 PM
Who cares what the regs are in that instance. Keep it hidden in your bag, and someone with you may thank you later. Easier to get forgiveness than permission...
Excellent attitude...
speaking of pyrotechnic signaling, a newer senior member in my unit asked me if we can use smoke grenades to signal air craft for the purposes of linking the aircraft up with a ground team,for the purpose of life and limb would that be acceptable?
Quote from: SABRE17 on May 23, 2011, 07:36:15 PM
speaking of pyrotechnic signaling, a newer senior member in my unit asked me if we can use smoke grenades to signal air craft for the purposes of linking the aircraft up with a ground team,for the purpose of life and limb would that be acceptable?
You can use it to mark a landing zone for a medivac but you have to be very specific about where you place it - it's best to ask the aircrew if they want a smoke marker or if other LZ markings is enough.
Quote from: SABRE17 on May 23, 2011, 07:36:15 PM
speaking of pyrotechnic signaling, a newer senior member in my unit asked me if we can use smoke grenades to signal air craft for the purposes of linking the aircraft up with a ground team,for the purpose of life and limb would that be acceptable?
Do you intend to train with them with them on a regular basis?
Because a smoke grenade is as likely to set the user or team on fire as it is to signal for help if not used properly.
That's why they are pretty simple to use. :o
With some control measures in place, ie a fire extinguisher on hand and a specific place to put it where it wont set anything on fire, i feel like it could be used well. However i can understand the reasoning behind it not being allowed.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 23, 2011, 08:09:09 PM
That's why they are pretty simple to use.
Heh, I guess smoke is smoke, whether it is the signal or the team...
Quote from: SABRE17 on May 23, 2011, 08:10:50 PM
With some control measures in place, ie a fire extinguisher on hand and a specific place to put it where it wont set anything on fire, i feel like it could be used well. However i can understand the reasoning behind it not being allowed.
Which sucker gets to carry the fire extinguisher so you can use the smoke grenade one out of 5,0000 sorties?
Frankly, I don't carry one and don't know how to use one. Don't even know where to procure one. In Illinois, LZs consist of "Land in that grass over there".
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 23, 2011, 08:24:55 PM
Which sucker gets to carry the fire extinguisher so you can use the smoke grenade one out of 5,0000 sorties?
I've probably tossed a thousand smokes and assorted military pyro over my career, and I can't think of a man-portable device that will extinguish one.
And they are not very complicated machines. Even a senior member could safely use one.
Ned Lee
Retired Infantry Guy
are we not required to have a fire extinguisher in our vehicles?
and what about the hand held ones in survival kits?
Quote from: SABRE17 on May 23, 2011, 08:34:38 PM
are we not required to have a fire extinguisher in our vehicles?
and what about the hand held ones in survival kits?
Not in POV's, and besides, you're probably not in your vehicle for an LZ.
I don't carry a hand-held fire extinguisher in my "survival kit". If anything in survival mode you want to start a fire, not put one out.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 23, 2011, 04:18:37 PM
Quote from: Capination on May 23, 2011, 03:38:11 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 23, 2011, 02:37:42 PM
No thanks.
In a CAP context they will never be needed, but that sure are tempting to "try"...
I guess that that "CAP Context" is kind of limited. What about ditching in the ocean @ 4AM in a Counterdrug mission. I bet you taking out CAPR 900-3 will not help me signal a USCG helicopter.
If you ditch a Cessna in the Ocean at 4am, you are not likely to have enough left of you to be able to fire a flare. I doubt there is too much
CD work over the ocean at 4am, either.
Let me see, sun comes up at 5:30AM, you take off form airport A at 4AM and land at airport B for refueling at 4:40AM. Take off again at 5AM enroute to your area and reach it at 5:30AM exactly at sunrise. You doubt too much.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 23, 2011, 08:24:55 PM
Quote from: SABRE17 on May 23, 2011, 08:10:50 PM
With some control measures in place, ie a fire extinguisher on hand and a specific place to put it where it wont set anything on fire, i feel like it could be used well. However i can understand the reasoning behind it not being allowed.
Which sucker gets to carry the fire extinguisher so you can use the smoke grenade one out of 5,0000 sorties?
Frankly, I don't carry one and don't know how to use one. Don't even know where to procure one. In Illinois, LZs consist of "Land in that grass over there".
Depends on what part of Illinois you're talking about.
Quote from: ol'fido on May 23, 2011, 09:31:32 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 23, 2011, 08:24:55 PM
Quote from: SABRE17 on May 23, 2011, 08:10:50 PM
With some control measures in place, ie a fire extinguisher on hand and a specific place to put it where it wont set anything on fire, i feel like it could be used well. However i can understand the reasoning behind it not being allowed.
Which sucker gets to carry the fire extinguisher so you can use the smoke grenade one out of 5,0000 sorties?
Frankly, I don't carry one and don't know how to use one. Don't even know where to procure one. In Illinois, LZs consist of "Land in that grass over there".
Depends on what part of Illinois you're talking about.
True. If I got down south things would be a bit different.
A tool is a tool.
If you don't trust your ground teams with a simple smoke grenade....why are you trusting them with knives and 10 Pax vans?
Quote from: Ned on May 23, 2011, 08:33:18 PM
I've probably tossed a thousand smokes and assorted military pyro over my career, and I can't think of a man-portable device that will extinguish one.
And they are not very complicated machines. Even a senior member could safely use one.
Agree. I've probably used a smoke grenade 2-3 times for legit CAP signalling purposes (the aircrew positively love it when they're trying to ID you from the air and you throw red smoke..), and at least 2-3 dozen times for military purposes. Its not rocket surgery.
Clearly, throwing an M-18 on the nearest haybale is not going to win you the Smokey The Bear "Only You Can Prevent Forest Fires" Award, so be smart when you employ the device.
Same goes for pen flares (which I have also used as a signalling device for CAP purposes.. I stopped carrying the darn things, though, when the set I'd been carrying for a fair amount of time in my gear finally went out of date and I didn't feel like buying new ones.. The usage was too limited). Shooting Mr. Pen Flare in the middle of a high fire-danger area when life and limb are not at stake might get you a talking to from the Park Ranger.
Who here carries a signal mirror in their gear?
I did for over 20 years, in both my aviation survival gear and my ground team gear. Never used it for anything but showing people how to use it, and to shave with in the field.
Then one day, we had air-to-ground radio, but due to some programming screw up, not ground-to-air.
So the aircrew would radio down "You want us to to go east?"
Two flashes yes, one flash no.
I was like "I've carried this darn thing for 20 years and I FINALLY get to use it!!!"
But will that work at 4am in the ocean?
Oh, yeah. It would...even wet.
I have video I personally took from a CAP aircraft of a signal mirror on a boat in Lake Michigan and the intensity of the signal shocked
me. Since then I am a true believer of the mirror (or CD, or phone face, or whatever). Until I can find my video, this should do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwCbgQGmID4
Which is more effective? (At 4am in the ocean)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVPWTfKEPWc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PhgbGnum0Y
Any other questions?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7CX1cHKAnc
That last video is of roman candles, not flares...but I guess its the same concept...
No idea how many hand flares or smoke grenades I have thrown in my time, and I can count the number of times I have seen one cause a fire on my closed fist. It doesn't matter where they are thrown, unless you are a complete ID-10-T you can't really mess one up. You can get both online pretty easily and they don't require any special licenses to purchase or own.
The water tight, O-ring sealed flare is a handy piece of kit for real world missions. It weighs less than an ounce. If you just run Sarex's, and don't do off road ground team missions, it might be over the top, but its your choice (within reason) what you want to haul on your back. After I found that Cyalume flares are 12 Gauge diameter, I whipped up a liner for my 26.5mm Flare gun chambered for the brass base of a 12 gauge shell ( It won't chamber 12 gauge flares or ammo) which I load with a pyrodex charge and a shotgun wad with a crimp seal. I "muzzle load" an ultrabright 4 minute glow stick, which is activated by the shock of the blank and goes straight up a couple hundred feet. It won't set the forest on fire, and of course, for distress, it would only be good at night. My main purpose for it is as a line thrower, since the Light sticks have a hole in the top to tie a piece of line to.
12 Gauge flareguns are awful;way to anemic. 26.5 mm flareguns are the real deal for the ocean, although I am personally fond of my 37mm grenade flare launcher, although they are pricey to plink with.......Rocket flares are the shizz!
Major Lord
Isnt that just a little bit excessive sir? :o
Quote from: thatonekid on May 24, 2011, 12:39:22 AM
That last video is of roman candles, not flares...but I guess its the same concept...
Agreed, though as you say, the same idea. There are also a number of videos showing people starting campfires with flares.
So, since I owe you one, here's some highly trained individuals using a smoke grenade.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgxr5WX9m48
What about the approved aircraft signaling techniques every ground team should know?
Do you just have one tool in the toolbox?
Thank you sir ;)
Well...the best way to get a pilots attention is through flashes of color/light, so you could use a very large, shiny, psychedelic flag... I don't know about you guys but I always keep one of those in my back pocket, along with a crowbar, a canaster of napalm...*continues on a long list of destructive objects*... ;)
Quote from: sneakers on May 23, 2011, 05:03:05 PM
Who cares what the regs are in that instance. Keep it hidden in your bag, and someone with you may thank you later. Easier to get forgiveness than permission...
Thank YOU! Some people are just to by the books!
Ever been involved in an Internal Affairs Professional Practices investigation? An Air Force investigation?
There is no such thing as too much by the books.
"SER-FL-000" ;-)
Seriously, sometimes there's no such thing as too much by the books. It's especially fun when fending off lame complaints and they can't find a thing to get you on other than you followed the regulation, and with consistency, and someone is whining because they don't get their way. .. and gets it handed back to them.
Quote from: a2capt on July 01, 2011, 04:04:24 AM
"SER-FL-000" ;-)
Seriously, sometimes there's no such thing as too much by the books. It's especially fun when fending off lame complaints and they can't find a thing to get you on other than you followed the regulation, and with consistency, and someone is whining because they don't get their way. .. and gets it handed back to them.
Im not part of SER-FL-000 i just didnt want to share my squadron.
Well, I'm sure the all deserving, bull in a china closet like attitude that is unfolding here is probably easy to spot by someone in your unit who may happen to pass through here. As in it's making a lot more sense to me why you may not be getting what you want.
As for the flair gun and fire arms mix, what do regulations that are in effect for the Area of Operation state? What about the Wing Operations people, what do they say? Some, such as NVWG have them, others may not. I've heard it both ways in passing discussion. I've got a couple smoke+light things in a metal can that I carry with me, personally, though I have not taken it on a CAP flight.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 23, 2011, 04:18:37 PM
If you ditch a Cessna in the Ocean at 4am, you are not likely to have enough left of you to be able to fire a flare. I doubt there is too much
CD work over the ocean at 4am, either.
You don't know much about ditching light aircraft, do you? Night ditchings happen, and are survivable.
As far as a CAP mission at night overwater, let's just say what if?
What if there was a major tsumami-generating tsunami in Japan at 7:30 PM our local time...
And at 9:30 PM there is a state-wide tsunami warning...
And by 10:30 PM the CAP airplanes are flying tsunami warning routes over a dark, dark Pacific ocean....
And by 5 AM they are launching again over the same dark ocean for sunrise damage assessment missions...
Just saying, it MIGHT happen.
A lot of things might happen.
Why would anyone be flying over the ocean to assess tsunami damage? If you're far enough away from the
shore to need a flare, you're not going to be looking at anything but water.
Here's an interesting analysis of NTSB reports of light aircraft ditchings. BLUF: "the overall general aviation ditching survival rate is 90 percent, and if you ignore blue water ferry operations, fatalities are actually quite rare."
http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm (http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm)
Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2011, 05:12:21 AM
A lot of things might happen.
OK, I'll spell it out, that's what we did after the Great Tohoku Earthquake last March. Do you want a cite or do you read the paper?
Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2011, 05:12:21 AM
A lot of things might happen.
Why would anyone be flying over the ocean to assess tsunami damage? If you're far enough away from the
shore to need a flare, you're not going to be looking at anything but water.
I'm in Hawaii. Look at a map. Getting from one island to another requires.... crossing lots of water. We do damage assessment and tsunami warning for the entire state, not just the island the airplane's based on.
Quote from: AirDX on July 01, 2011, 05:18:16 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2011, 05:12:21 AM
A lot of things might happen.
Why would anyone be flying over the ocean to assess tsunami damage? If you're far enough away from the
shore to need a flare, you're not going to be looking at anything but water.
I'm in Hawaii. Look at a map. Getting from one island to another requires.... crossing lots of water. We do damage assessment and tsunami warning for the entire state, not just the island the airplane's based on.
Fair enough, then just as in Alaska, your wing has special needs, and if flares are deemed "important", they should be a part of the aircrew
loadouts and members trained in their use. I would imagine that personal flotation devices and perhaps even an inflatable raft
are also considered important.
That doesn't mean they should be standard issue or are anything but a hazard / firework in the "flyover states".
Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2011, 05:25:18 AM
Fair enough, then just as in Alaska, your wing has special needs, and if flares are deemed "important", they should be a part of the aircrew
loadouts and members trained in their use. I would imagine that personal flotation devices and perhaps even an inflatable raft
are also considered important.
That doesn't mean they should be standard issue or are anything but a hazard / firework in the "flyover states".
Flares are deemed important. And you're right, I didn't carry them when I flew in Minnesota Wing, or during any of my personal flying around Michigan/Wisconsin/Illinois/Iowa. Don't see a need - compact fire-starting equipment serves the dual purpose of being available to start a fire for heat if required, or for signaling purposes.
For the record, the survival gear we carry in Hawaii Wing aircraft is:
"A certified current life raft with sufficient capacity to hold the maximum number of crew and passengers.
A certified current life flotation vest for each crew member and passenger. Each life vest shall be be equipped with the following items:
ACR Personal Locator Beacon
4 pencil flares
1 rescue streamer
1 rescue mirror
1 whistle
1 sea dye marker"
Absence of any of these items is a no-go issue. There are few if any flight profiles we typically fly that don't involve some risk of ditching.
In my personal flying I carry similar gear attached to my body.
Quote from: AirDX on July 01, 2011, 06:09:47 AM"A certified current life raft with sufficient capacity to hold the maximum number of crew and passengers.
Heh - we had those in planes flying over Lake Michigan for a while, until someone pointed out that the odds of being able to get
the thing out of the cargo door after ditching were near zero, and the extra weight was all but nixing the third / fourth aircrew
member, depending on which plane it was at the time.
They just decided to risk it, ditto with PFD's.
What's the actual procedure for getting the raft out of the plane?
Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2011, 06:18:43 AM
What's the actual procedure for getting the raft out of the plane?
Most of us will brief the scanner, if there is one, is responsible to reach over the back seat and get it up next to him, preparatory to passing it to the observer or the pilot after the ditching, who'll pull it out behind them, or the scanner could push it out ahead as he exits.
If no scanner, I strap it into the rear seat. It'd be a trick to get it out, but cool heads will prevail.
Obviously it's not the only survival gear, and all I count on is what's strapped to my body. No plan survives contact with the enemy.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2011, 05:12:21 AM
A lot of things might happen.
Why would anyone be flying over the ocean to assess tsunami damage? If you're far enough away from the
shore to need a flare, you're not going to be looking at anything but water.
You did not really read that post.
Nor did you catch the [SARCASM][/SARCASM].
These are missions that HIWG actualy flies. They fly the TSUNAMI warnings and they fly SUNRISE DA missions...so a before sunrise take off.
The ditching protocol for the USCG Aux, which includes a mandatory life raft on board:
1. Front right seat opens door and jams it open.
2. Rear seat passenger passes raft to front right seat. If no rear passenger, front right seat gets raft from back seat, where it was placed before flight.
3. Front right seat places raft on floor between legs. Do not hold it in front of you as it may interfere with the pilot pulling the yoke back.
4. Plane ditches. Front right passenger goes out the door with the raft in front of him. Inflate vest, swim to tail and once free of debris, inflates raft, gets in.
5. Pilot exits. Inflate vest, swim to raft. Enter.
6. Rear right passenger exits. Inflate vest, swim to raft. Enter.
7. Rear left passenger exits. Inflate vest, swim to raft. Enter.
That is just theory. In contrast to what some stats quoted earlier, the USCG Aux has had several ditching in the history of its air program. There have been no survivors.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2011, 05:12:21 AM
A lot of things might happen.
Why would anyone be flying over the ocean to assess tsunami damage? If you're far enough away from the
shore to need a flare, you're not going to be looking at anything but water.
Tsunamis tend to drag stuff out to sea. Lots of stuff. MASSIVE AMOUNTS of lots of stuff. CITIES' worth of massive amounts of lots of stuff.
Some of that stuff can be people hanging onto debris.
A cigarette lighter on a dark sea can be visible for miles from the air, while the victim is over the horizon (or blocked by other debris) to spotters on a boat only a few hundred yards away.