Blue BDU's

[armyguy]

Since USAF has done away with ABU's and going with OCP, now would be the perfect time for CAP to do a total force (cadets & SM) to blue BDU's.  They are a less expensive, outwear would not be a problem since there is more leeway  with what is allowed.

They look shard, and a more in line with the ES mission. Cammo make no sense at all, the all blue BDU's have a more professional look (i.e. fire depts & EMS).

[SARDOC]

This discussion has been had on here many times.  Just use the search feature.  There are many that insist on having the military appearance. 

I agree that we should have and uniform that is actually "uniform" the BBDU's are a great option and they are available, they are used by many organizations so we don't have to worry about a sunset date.  And we could actually save money in the long term.

[armyguy]

This discussion has been had on here many times.  Just use the search feature.  There are many that insist on having the military appearance. 

I agree that we should have and uniform that is actually "uniform" the BBDU's are a great option and they are available, they are used by many organizations so we don't have to worry about a sunset date.  And we could actually save money in the long term.

For those who insist on a "military appearance," maybe they should look at the USCG & USCG Aux, their uniform is basically the blue BDU (also NOAA and USPHS).

And just what is meant when people say they want a military appearance?  If you look like a soup sandwich in OCP's, dress blues etc... you won't have a military appearance.  I have been on active duty assignments where we were authorized civilian clothes' and there was still no doubt who was military and who was not.

[Shuman 14]

Part of the appeal of CAP for many Cadets (and Seniors too) is the ability to wear a Military-style uniform.

ABUs (and BDUs before them) are a big recruiting tool and hopefully soon, OCPs will be that recruiting tool.

While BBDUs would be a more practical uniform choice, I suspect we will lose potential cadets, if they are the sole working/field uniform choice.

Very quickly ABUs sources will completely dry up so National and USAF need to make a decision sooner before later as to what they want CAP members to wear.

OCPs, BBDUs, BOCPs or something else entirely... they really need to make a choice.

[Dad Jokes]

I've kept out of these but I'll drop my two cents.  I don't want my cadets walking around looking like unarmed police officers in todays world. I wore that uniform most of my adult life and won't put it back on.  Any color other than blue, maybe we can talk. I'd even go for big bird yellow before blue.

[heliodoc]

Dad Jokes

Some common sense, right there. Dont know where CAP gets uniform ideas but your point is well taken. Until CAP is truly designated a reponse organization and gets in their head with our support designation as a SAR resource....its about time we get a uniform  that is not camouflaged. SOME LE folks ask why the uniform  choices which could be limiting some resources requests.

But getting a uniform that resembles what we truly do and do not do, probably won't occur in this lifetime.

Sure the USAF drives us and its the pipeline for future leaders BUT an approved uniform outside of camo could be discussed and maybe it has with old timey ideas that needs some 21st Century civilian 501(c)3 thought. After all thats how we are designated by Congressional action.

[Shuman 14]

I've kept out of these but I'll drop my two cents.  I don't want my cadets walking around looking like unarmed police officers in todays world. I wore that uniform most of my adult life and won't put it back on.  Any color other than blue, maybe we can talk. I'd even go for big bird yellow before blue.

Very good point.

[Shuman 14]

Dad Jokes

Some common sense, right there. Dont know where CAP gets uniform ideas but your point is well taken. Until CAP is truly designated a reponse organization and gets in their head with our support designation as a SAR resource....its about time we get a uniform  that is not camouflaged. SOME LE folks ask why the uniform  choices which could be limiting some resources requests.

But getting a uniform that resembles what we truly do and do not do, probably won't occur in this lifetime.

Sure the USAF drives us and its the pipeline for future leaders BUT an approved uniform outside of camo could be discussed and maybe it has with old timey ideas that needs some 21st Century civilian 501(c)3 thought. After all thats how we are designated by Congressional action.

A long while ago, a CAPTalk poster (I can't remember who) floated the idea of a ACU/OCP style uniform in olive drab with blue name/CAP tapes, blue rank badges, blue skill badges, full color patches and full color US Flags and black boots.

It met all the requirements of field/work uniform, could be worn by all members, could not be confused for USAF or LE officers and was martial appearing enough that we wouldn't loose too many for not being in a USAF uniform.

He even posted pictures of the ensemble, it looked very professional.

Maybe it's time to revisit the idea... before ABUs dry up completely.

[Toad1168]

I think we are missing the point on this discussion.  An integral part of the cadet program is emphasis on the AF style training, leadership, and uniform.  Their leadership training is military based.  The constant discussion about getting rid of the uniform is exhausting and would negatively impact the cadet program.

As far as seniors, we have adequate choices for those that can't or won't wear AF style. 

Just my two cents, let the flaming begin

[Shuman 14]

I think we are missing the point on this discussion.  An integral part of the cadet program is emphasis on the AF style training, leadership, and uniform.  Their leadership training is military based.  The constant discussion about getting rid of the uniform is exhausting and would negatively impact the cadet program.

As far as seniors, we have adequate choices for those that can't or won't wear AF style. 

Just my two cents, let the flaming begin

But the ABU is NO LONGER a Air Force uniform. In fact, the ONLY agency wearing it is CAP, therefore, it is now a de facto CAP Corporate uniform.

So does the continued wear of the ABU negatively impact the Cadet Program? I would say yes.

[Holding Pattern]

Since USAF has done away with ABU's and going with OCP, now would be the perfect time for CAP to do a total force (cadets & SM)

Great idea!

to blue BDU's.

That's the opposite of Total Force.

[Eclipse]

But the ABU is NO LONGER a Air Force uniform. In fact, the ONLY agency wearing it is CAP, therefore, it is now a de facto CAP Corporate uniform.

Experienced members know that this argument has been made for years, and has never flown.

[Eclipse]

.  An integral part of the cadet program is emphasis on the AF style training, leadership, and uniform.  Their leadership training is military based.  The constant discussion about getting rid of the uniform is exhausting and would negatively impact the cadet program.

Keep the blues, change the field uniforms.

Done.

.
As far as seniors, we have adequate choices for those that can't or won't wear AF style. 

"adequate" is benevolent to the extreme in this context.

[jeders]

But the ABU is NO LONGER a Air Force uniform. In fact, the ONLY agency wearing it is CAP

As well as AFJROTC

therefore, it is now a de facto CAP Corporate uniform.

No it's not; just because the air force doesn't use it any more doesn't mean that they don't retain ownership of it.

So does the continued wear of the ABU negatively impact the Cadet Program? I would say yes.

Doesn't seem to be hurting AFJROTC too much, at least not from what I've seen of the two local AFJROTC units.

[Toad1168]

I think we are missing the point on this discussion.  An integral part of the cadet program is emphasis on the AF style training, leadership, and uniform.  Their leadership training is military based.  The constant discussion about getting rid of the uniform is exhausting and would negatively impact the cadet program.

As far as seniors, we have adequate choices for those that can't or won't wear AF style. 

Just my two cents, let the flaming begin

But the ABU is NO LONGER a Air Force uniform. In fact, the ONLY agency wearing it is CAP, therefore, it is now a de facto CAP Corporate uniform.

So does the continued wear of the ABU negatively impact the Cadet Program? I would say yes.

My point was less about the ABU, and more about the USAF style in general.  If you go back through the ridiculous number of uniform threads, a common theme is some people complaining about the utility uniform (or the camp that doesn't think there should be any uniforms).  It generally boils down to the idea that they can't or won't wear them and don't like the corporate style.  Anyone that argues it will be cheaper for cadets or other members to simply switch to BBDU, is a myth.  Otherwise, they would be prevalent in surplus and resale shops.  And like it or not, there are a significant number of cadets (and SMs) that are drawn in by the uniform. 

We should adopt policies more like the AF where it is less strictly based on weight and more on appearance in the uniform.  But, we should be focusing on how to increase our numbers as an organization (different thread, and doesn't belong with the uniform discussion) instead of looking at something that would most likely drive out more members.

[Shuman 14]

But the ABU is NO LONGER a Air Force uniform. In fact, the ONLY agency wearing it is CAP, therefore, it is now a de facto CAP Corporate uniform.

Experienced members know that this argument has been made for years, and has never flown.

Since the ABU only ceased to be an Air Force uniform in 2021, how has this argument been made for years?

[Shuman 14]

But the ABU is NO LONGER a Air Force uniform. In fact, the ONLY agency wearing it is CAP

As well as AFJROTC

therefore, it is now a de facto CAP Corporate uniform.

No it's not; just because the air force doesn't use it any more doesn't mean that they don't retain ownership of it.

So does the continued wear of the ABU negatively impact the Cadet Program? I would say yes.

Doesn't seem to be hurting AFJROTC too much, at least not from what I've seen of the two local AFJROTC units.

AFJROTC is in the process of transitioning to the OCP uniform, your local units may be behind the power curve.

[Eclipse]

Since the ABU only ceased to be an Air Force uniform in 2021, how has this argument been made for years?

CAP has worn other Air Force Style uniform combinations which were retired by the USAF but
not released to be considered "no longer a military uniform style".

Every time it happens, the same argument(s) is made.

[Shuman 14]

Since the ABU only ceased to be an Air Force uniform in 2021, how has this argument been made for years?

CAP has worn other Air Force Style uniform combinations which were retired by the USAF but
not released to be considered "no longer a military uniform style".

Every time it happens, the same argument(s) is made.

It would appear that the USAF likes to play reindeer games with CAP... its really counter-productive for both agencies. Just saying.

[etodd]

It would appear that the USAF likes to play reindeer games with CAP...

Do the AF folks ever come out publicly and say "here is our 10 year uniform plan for CAP"?  Or is it quiet decisions that are passed along to Hdqs, who then doles it out as it comes?  It just seems to always be so secretive and the membership is the last to know. No info as to the whys or wherefores, just do as your told(?)

[PHall]

It would appear that the USAF likes to play reindeer games with CAP...

Do the AF folks ever come out publicly and say "here is our 10 year uniform plan for CAP"?  Or is it quiet decisions that are passed along to Hdqs, who then doles it out as it comes?  It just seems to always be so secretive and the membership is the last to know. No info as to the whys or wherefores, just do as your told(?)

CAP members are no better informed then AF members are informed on the Air Forces uniform plans.
To put it simply, the folks who wear it are the last to know.

[jeders]

AFJROTC is in the process of transitioning to the OCP uniform, your local units may be behind the power curve.

Transitioning, meaning still using; ergo, CAP is not the only organization using ABUs.

[Eclipse]

Do the AF folks ever come out publicly and say "here is our 10 year uniform plan for CAP"?

Do the AF folks ever come out publicly and say "here is our 10 year uniform plan for the AF"?

[Dad Jokes]

A side note about blue tac uniforms.  You should see how horrible they fade, and unevenly.  You can't replace a shirt without getting new pants also.  Make sure you wash them the same amount too.  I think we had Blauer, ProTuff, (probably spelled both of those wrong) and a number of others and hey all looked like a soup sandwich after a short time.

A problem with using a "common" color uniform is unless you designate a specific cut and manufacture your going to end up with a storage room of multiple shades, styles, cuts, and so on. After a while you will have a hard time putting together a matching set for a new member. Then you start defeating the whole concept of supply and demand as well as cost.

But hey, lots of pockets came in handy for one guy who I won't name that was eating fried shrimp while directing traffic at a fatal.  We were eating when the run came out, guess he decided to take his dinner with him. Wave cars through, eat a shrimp from his pocket, wave more cars through, another pocket shrimp. 

At least I've yet to see a train wreck like that in CAP.

[heliodoc]

CAP did have its own train wreck....the short-sleeved light blue Smurf Suit back inghe late 70s and early 80s...

[SarDragon]

CAP did have its own train wreck....the short-sleeved light blue Smurf Suit back in the late 70s and early 80s...

I was around for that. I still have my order blank for one (11 addresses ago) that I never sent in. Cash was tight and I wasn't sure I would get my money's worth out of it. In 20/20 hindsight, I would not have.

[PHall]

A side note about blue tac uniforms.  You should see how horrible they fade, and unevenly.  You can't replace a shirt without getting new pants also.  Make sure you wash them the same amount too.  I think we had Blauer, ProTuff, (probably spelled both of those wrong) and a number of others and hey all looked like a soup sandwich after a short time.

Blue BDU's are just like any other clothing item, you get what you pay for.
I have the Propper Poly Cotton Rip Stop ones and they haven't faded much. And I've had this set for about five years now. You just have to follow the care directions that are right there on the label. Cold water wash and low heat dry.

[armyguy]

......... that we wouldn't loose too many for not being in a USAF uniform.

.

If someone leaves because the uniform is not a USAF uniform do you really want a wannabe like that?

[N6RVT]

At least I've yet to see a train wreck like that in CAP.

Apparently you just joined.  I saw someone on CAWG staff get a silver medal of valor for doing almost exactly that.

[N6RVT]

CAP did have its own train wreck....the short-sleeved light blue Smurf Suit back inghe late 70s and early 80s...

Remember that was the age of Disco.  It did not look out of place at the time.

[N6RVT]

A side note about blue tac uniforms.  You should see how horrible they fade, and unevenly.  You can't replace a shirt without getting new pants also.  Make sure you wash them the same amount too.  I think we had Blauer, ProTuff, (probably spelled both of those wrong) and a number of others and hey all looked like a soup sandwich after a short time.

Blue BDU's are just like any other clothing item, you get what you pay for.
I have the Propper Poly Cotton Rip Stop ones and they haven't faded much. And I've had this set for about five years now. You just have to follow the care directions that are right there on the label. Cold water wash and low heat dry.

At what turned out to be my last CAP operation we had a former IC show up in blue BDU.  They were almost faded to ultramarine, seriously they were smurf suit color.

[THRAWN]

CAP did have its own train wreck....the short-sleeved light blue Smurf Suit back inghe late 70s and early 80s...

The first mission I flew as a fully qualified Observer in 94, my MP flew in this. Dude looked like Violet Beauregard...

[Shuman 14]

AFJROTC is in the process of transitioning to the OCP uniform, your local units may be behind the power curve.

Transitioning, meaning still using; ergo, CAP is not the only organization using ABUs.

Semantics, CAP plans on wearing them... forever, AFJROTC plans on wearing for a maximum of six more months.

[Eclipse]

It should be noted in the "unavailable" conversation that CAP has an
approved manufacturer / supplier of ABU items, which negates the conversation
regarding whether the USAF still wears them or not.

The fact that there appears to be logistical constraint on that supplier
is a separate conversation from the "policy and multi-form choice" conversation.

If CAP's approved, single-source uniform supplier is unable to provide the needed
garments in compliance with contractual obligations, it should be addressed from that angle.

[heliodoc]

There's a contract with CAPs sole source supplier? Judging from the quality...its time for QA/QC lesson

[PHall]

There's a contract with CAPs sole source supplier? Judging from the quality...its time for QA/QC lesson

He didn't say it was a "good" contract.

[Okayish Aviator]

It's all a bit of a mute point.

I have been told by people in the know that CAP NHQ is actively working on it. I was told that a preliminary transition plan and draft reg for the OCP and how CAP will wear it, is already done. We're waiting on the "mother may I" from USAF. My understanding is they are moving as fast as they can at this point given how fast it's drying up.

This solves the logistical nightmare we're beginning to run into with sourcing ABU's in the quantities and sizes needed. I'm a 4hr drive from USAF or USSF, and Army bases. Having OCP's is going to make getting uniforms far easier.

I was told to expect it within the next year.

[Jester]

It's all a bit of a mute point.

I have been told by people in the know that CAP NHQ is actively working on it. I was told that a preliminary transition plan and draft reg for the OCP and how CAP will wear it, is already done. We're waiting on the "mother may I" from USAF. My understanding is they are moving as fast as they can at this point given how fast it's drying up.

This solves the logistical nightmare we're beginning to run into with sourcing ABU's in the quantities and sizes needed. I'm a 4hr drive from USAF or USSF, and Army bases. Having OCP's is going to make getting uniforms far easier.

I was told to expect it within the next year.

That directly opposes what I heard from someone who was at the Command Council.

[heliodoc]

Once again...an organization that has no consistent message to all the PAYING members who ought to be treated with a little respect with some consistent messaging.." I been told" "What I heard." CAP needs some professional help in volunteer management. But then this about uniforms again....any new news about curriculum changes in GT operations?

[Eclipse]

"here is our 10 year uniform plan for CAP"? 

There's no public 10 month plan for anything CAP, let alone 10 years.

[Blanding]

Once again...an organization that has no consistent message to all the PAYING members who ought to be treated with a little respect with some consistent messaging.."

The organization's message has been consistent.

What you're taking issue with are unqualified opinions and hearsay from random internet strangers.

[THRAWN]

Once again...an organization that has no consistent message to all the PAYING members who ought to be treated with a little respect with some consistent messaging.."

The organization's message has been consistent.

What you're taking issue with are unqualified opinions and hearsay from random internet strangers.

You're going to find that there are some contributors that you'll read, laugh, and scroll on. Others you just scroll by. Heliodoc is the latter. A decade of sour grapes. Welcome aboard.

[heliodoc]

Thats ok, Thrawn. Any body can scroll right on past me..but a decades worth of uniform discussion could be considered in the same way..sour grapes....I came back after a hiatus to check it out and noticed that the numbers of CapTalk folk that were here 10 yrs ago ...have dropped off quite considerably. Why is that? Apparently, they found other things to do....or maybe like to read occasional commentary from the experts in CAP

[Okayish Aviator]

...and this is why by and large I've stopped coming here.

[UWONGO2]

That directly opposes what I heard from someone who was at the Command Council.

Me as well. MGen Smith elected to punt the uniform issue throughout his entire term. MGen Phelka brought up uniforms to ask what the general interest was in moving to OCPs. There was a discussion about the expense of buying up everything Vanguard has in stock (required by contract) and the expense of the new uniform to members.

Nothing was decided, no processes were started, and definitely nothing submitted to CAP-USAF for routing to SECAF. Just a preliminary discussion on the topic.

I also know that the NUC has in the past discussed the lack of cadet-sized OCP uniforms as being an issue. A few ideas were discussed (moving everyone back to BDUs, moving everyone to BBDUs, staying with VG's ABU supplier), but I don't believe any recommendations were made to MG Smith at the time (probably doesn't matter now anywhere since there's a new boss).

[Shuman 14]

There was a discussion about the expense of buying up everything Vanguard has in stock (required by contract)

Well that's simple, you authorize OCPs but you continue to authorize ABUs, if there is no "wear-out date" its still an authorized uniform, CAP doesn't have to buy anything.

The fact that no members are buying Vanguard's crappy product, is not CAP's fault. ;-)

[Okayish Aviator]

Well that's simple, you authorize OCPs but you continue to authorize ABUs, if there is no "wear-out date" its still an authorized uniform, CAP doesn't have to buy anything.

The fact that no members are buying Vanguard's crappy product, is not CAP's fault. ;-)

I think it'd be hard enough to source them soon with only one manufacturer in the US even producing anything in the pattern now, and that's only for us and in the required quantities.

Ideally, we'd have a wear out date far enough out that the effective supply CAP would have to buy out would be almost nothing in comparison to at the moment. That's absolutely a consideration national will make when determining how long to make the phase out. That said, there was a plentiful supply of commercial suppliers for woodland still making stock, just not at the price point and availability we were needing (plus the whole not a current AF uniform thing). This time around everyone's just dropping the ABU because it wasn't that popular commercially, and was only used by one branch for what...15 years?

It would all depend on how fast seniors and cadets who wear the AF style uniform wish to transition. I think the perception was that everyone would rush to the "new hotness" that was ABU's, but it would remain to be seen if the same would happen with the ABU/OCP transition.

I'm firmly in the category of moving to the newer uniform as soon as practical, but I know that's not always doable for other members.

[UWONGO2]

There was a discussion about the expense of buying up everything Vanguard has in stock (required by contract)

Well that's simple, you authorize OCPs but you continue to authorize ABUs, if there is no "wear-out date" its still an authorized uniform, CAP doesn't have to buy anything.

The fact that no members are buying Vanguard's crappy product, is not CAP's fault. ;-)

Well.... I certainly appreciate your out-of-the-box problem solving, but we probably don't want to ruin the relationship with Vanguard. I'm not aware of any other companies willing to agree to our contractual requirements to be our uniform vendor.

[Shuman 14]

Well.... I certainly appreciate your out-of-the-box problem solving, but we probably don't want to ruin the relationship with Vanguard. I'm not aware of any other companies willing to agree to our contractual requirements to be our uniform vendor.

That prompts a better question... when does our contract with Vanguard end and when can we open up the new contract for bidding?

I think there will be plenty of companies willing to take out a bid for a National CAP contract to supply our Insignia and uniforms.

[Capt Thompson]

Well.... I certainly appreciate your out-of-the-box problem solving, but we probably don't want to ruin the relationship with Vanguard. I'm not aware of any other companies willing to agree to our contractual requirements to be our uniform vendor.

That prompts a better question... when does our contract with Vanguard end and when can we open up the new contract for bidding?

I think there will be plenty of companies willing to take out a bid for a National CAP contract to supply our Insignia and uniforms.

First, per our contract with VG, if we part ways we have to buy out all existing inventory from them, so depending on how much of a stockpile they have, it might not be financially feasible. Second, do we want to go through the growing pains we had with VG all over again? They are churning out decent insignias now for the most part, after years of issues. Taking the entire inventory over to say Ira Green or another manufacturer might mean years of mismatched insignia, off colors and crooked patches before they finally get it right, and it probably wouldn't get the general membership any better pricing or service.

[Shuman 14]

First, per our contract with VG, if we part ways we have to buy out all existing inventory from them, so depending on how much of a stockpile they have, it might not be financially feasible. Second, do we want to go through the growing pains we had with VG all over again? They are churning out decent insignias now for the most part, after years of issues. Taking the entire inventory over to say Ira Green or another manufacturer might mean years of mismatched insignia, off colors and crooked patches before they finally get it right, and it probably wouldn't get the general membership any better pricing or service.

Do you have a copy of the contract? If so, I'd really like to read it and I know some CAP Legal Officers I know would like to review it too.

Generally speaking, most business contracts don't have a "forever" clause... short of chattel slavery and selling your soul to Lucifer.

Every business contract I've seen had an end date, with an option to renew at agreed to rates for the continuation.

IF CAP signed a "forever" clause... the Legal Officer that signed off on it needs to be disbarred.

Just because Vanguard is the Earl Scheib of the insignia world doesn't mean every other insignia manufacturer is going to have the same issues they did.

I suspect CAP went with the lowest bidder and we got what we paid for.

 

[Ned]

Actually, the last time we went through the bidding process, essentially nobody other than VG was in a position to be seriously considered.  Apparently, we are not a very large market, and not particularly profitable.

And although it has been a few years, I have seen the contract (actually a license.)

As you correctly note, it is for a period of several years. Near the end of the term, NHQ follows standard business procedures and invites companies to bid.  Just like Scouting, MLB, and anyone else with uniforms and insignia.

As a final note, no one is required to source their uniforms from VG.  I generally don't, but some members have fewer options than I do.  I do buy my insignia there, since they are our sole licensed vendor.

Peace.  Soon OCPs will be here and we will have something else to argue about.  Because to judge by the forums here, what we wear is far more important than what we do for our country.


Ned Lee
Former Vice Chair, CAP Board of Governors

[SarDragon]

And thus ends another chapter in the continuing saga of CAP uniforms.

Click.