If you were a gambling man...

[Eclipse]

If you can't make everyone happy, the next best thing is to make everyone equally unhappy...

Which is really where this should come to.

Somehow it's "OK" for 1/2 the adult membership to be different because we don't want to risk making the smaller pool sad?

[Майор Хаткевич]

If a cadet over 18 is out of weight standards, their core values should clue them in...

[THRAWN]

If a cadet over 18 is out of weight standards, their core values should clue them in...

If its behavior based sure. I knew an outstanding cadet who had a medical issue which made him built like Lou Costello. Put all members in the same unis and this problem ends very quicky.

[Garibaldi]

If a cadet over 18 is out of weight standards, their core values should clue them in...

If its behavior based sure. I knew an outstanding cadet who had a medical issue which made him built like Lou Costello. Put all members in the same unis and this problem ends very quicky.

I'm not sure how putting 18 year old army recruits in banana suits during basic if they don't meet h/w standards isn't hazing, but putting a 20 year old cadet is...

[THRAWN]

If a cadet over 18 is out of weight standards, their core values should clue them in...

If its behavior based sure. I knew an outstanding cadet who had a medical issue which made him built like Lou Costello. Put all members in the same unis and this problem ends very quicky.

I'm not sure how putting 18 year old army recruits in banana suits during basic if they don't meet h/w standards isn't hazing, but putting a 20 year old cadet is...

Because one is in the Army/Navy/Air Force/Coast Guard/Marine Corps and one is a Cadet in a service auxiliary. Apples and snow tires...sure they are both round....its also a visibility thing for the medics. If you cant pick out the husky cadet among the dozen at your meeting you might need new specs.

[PA Guy]

I have to wear the G/W and hate and resent it to the depths of my heart so I sometimes have to remind myself of why I'm in CAP.

Well, there's at least one other CAP member who feels as I do...


CyBorg,

Yes, I hate the G/W uniform but that is where we part company.  Unlike you I decided that what I DO in CAP is more important to me than my CAP wardrobe.  I learned a long time ago that CAP isn't Burger King and I can't always have it my way.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

CyBorg,

Yes, I hate the G/W uniform but that is where we part company.  Unlike you I decided that what I DO in CAP is more important to me than my CAP wardrobe.  I learned a long time ago that CAP isn't Burger King and I can't always have it my way.

I never said that the uniform is more important than the mission - and for those who may infer that, please do not.  I do not make inferences.  I either say it, or I do not.  Yes or no.

The disability issue in terms of uniforms is very, very probably a non-starter.  If CAP would not allow members to join because of a disability, that would be very bad for the organisation (SDF's are permitted to, but I think their actually being military forces and, in some cases, armed, allows that) and CAP would be looking at Lawsuit Central.  I have some experience with this having a disability and the ADA is full of Death Star-sized holes.

In all seriousness, you're from Area51 Composite, presumably more then average military involvement, and the civilians are essentially desiccated walking dead from too much time in the desert (or the casino) your membership is probably not typical.

A similar thought occurred to me, given where the Master Sergeant's unit is located (one of the Air Force's major bases) and the usually sunny-and-warm climate, conducive to the outdoor exercise that doctors and nutritionists extol.  However, I would not describe the civilians around Nellis AFB as necessarily "dessicated walking dead!"  Eclipse, sir, I hope you were being facetious.

I live in the frozen Great Lakes.  We have only now started having warmer weather permitting more outside activity.  Except for a few Coast Guard stations, there are no active military facilities in my state, so we do not have that environment.

However, speaking only for myself, even if I lived in the sunny climes of Nevada, I would be at a disadvantage with exercise.  I have arthritis settling in my lower back and hips, and in some cases I cannot walk alongside my wife for very long in the supermarket without my hips locking up and/or being in intense pain.  The chances are very good that within the next year or so I will require a cane to walk.  That is frustrating, because in years gone by I loved to walk and ride bicycle with my wife.

This also pertains to my general involvement in CAP.  I was once rated aircrew (Observer) and took active part in drilling, both teaching and participating, with the cadets (and seniors in my first unit).

I know CAP will not/cannot kick me out because of this.  However, nonetheless, I do feel a "second-tier" member because I cannot wear the blue uniform anymore, and because I cannot do the activities I used to be able to do.

[Panache]

Look.....we keep circling around the same thing.......the fat and fuzzies have no choice.....and it is true......it's not CAP's fault.   What is CAP's fault is their reluctance to piss off those member in CAP who can and choose to wear the USAF uniform.

I fail to see how making a couple of changes to the extant corporate uniform would anger those who can and choose to wear the USAF uniform...they would not be affected.

I thought we were talking about going to a single uniform.

I have no desire to take away the USAF-Blues from our First Class Members.   All I'm asking is changing the Corporate equivalent to something not terribad.  A colored shirt, a duty hat, and a service coat.  Done.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I have no desire to take away the USAF-Blues from our First Class Members.   All I'm asking is changing the Corporate equivalent to something not terribad.  A colored shirt, a duty hat, and a service coat.  Done.

Apparently it is too much to ask.

[lordmonar]

I have no desire to take away the USAF-Blues from our First Class Members.   All I'm asking is changing the Corporate equivalent to something not terribad.  A colored shirt, a duty hat, and a service coat.  Done.

Apparently it is too much to ask.

Have you asked?   No really....have you submitted a white paper to the NUC with your concerns and possible solutions?
That's not too much to ask, is it?

[Angus]

I have no desire to take away the USAF-Blues from our First Class Members.   All I'm asking is changing the Corporate equivalent to something not terribad.  A colored shirt, a duty hat, and a service coat.  Done.

Apparently it is too much to ask.

Have you asked?   No really....have you submitted a white paper to the NUC with your concerns and possible solutions?
That's not too much to ask, is it?

We did have a nicer corporate uniform however it went away because of the it's creator.  If that had gone through the correct vetting process it might still exist in some shape or form today.  But let's not forget HWSNBN had his on way of doing things. 

[Devil Doc]

All things are waiver-able.....in the USAF we routinely get shaving waivers for people with Pseudo foliculitis barbie (sp?),  Shoe waivers of all kinds. I have seen hair cut waivers for everything from healing scalp injuries to covering dis figuration of the ears and face.

So the argument that we hold people accountable to meeting the regs......and maybe not being able to meet those regs due to medical issues is not discrimination.

It is a good thing CAP has got a uniform those people can wear.

Look.....we keep circling around the same thing.......the fat and fuzzies have no choice.....and it is true......it's not CAP's fault.   What is CAP's fault is their reluctance to piss off those member in CAP who can and choose to wear the USAF uniform.

We.....go to the change management thread.....and let's start effecting the change.....you think you have heard "unreasonable comments" here on CT.......just wait till you broach that one to the general membership.  You will understand why I have been defending the NUC.

How hard would it to be to have an Addendum to the AF Blues? If you have a No Shave Chit,Medical Chit, or Waiver or some sort, so the AF Blues could be worn?

Also, when it comes to ADA, im pretty sure I have alot of "Disabilities" that qualify, im sure majority of mine do. I think CAP does what it can to confrom to the ADA, but as stated above I think a "Waiver" should be able to be used to wear the AF blues.

[lordmonar]

It does not quite work that way in the USAF......but that is the crux of the problem.   If USAF were to sign off on it....we could all be in USAF uniforms tomorrow.

[Angus]

It does not quite work that way in the USAF......but that is the crux of the problem.   If USAF were to sign off on it....we could all be in USAF uniforms tomorrow.

I wouldn't want to see it change and everyone be in Blues. But I do support waivers for medical and religious reasons.  But for someone who doesn't have either and won't make an effort I say keep the corporate alternative. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

It does not quite work that way in the USAF......but that is the crux of the problem.   If USAF were to sign off on it....we could all be in USAF uniforms tomorrow.

I wouldn't want to see it change and everyone be in Blues. But I do support waivers for medical and religious reasons.  But for someone who doesn't have either and won't make an effort I say keep the corporate alternative.

Why?

[Eclipse]

and won't make an effort I say keep the corporate alternative.

Define "effort" - like works 20-40 hours a week for CAP?

That's the only relevent "effort" the organization should concern itself with.

[Майор Хаткевич]

and won't make an effort I say keep the corporate alternative.

Define "effort" - like works 20-40 hours a week for CAP?

That's the only relevent "effort" the organization should concern itself with.

No, I think he means you're fat. You have no (diagnosed) issues. So because you clearly don't diet right or exercise, you aren't a good member to wear blues.

[Angus]

and won't make an effort I say keep the corporate alternative.

Define "effort" - like works 20-40 hours a week for CAP?

That's the only relevent "effort" the organization should concern itself with.

No, I think he means you're fat. You have no (diagnosed) issues. So because you clearly don't diet right or exercise, you aren't a good member to wear blues.

That's exactly what I mean and for the fuzzy side someone who just doesn't want to shave.

As far as not having everyone in blues not everyone should be in blues.  I will admit I don't think I should be in blues and I do meet the height and weight criteria.  It's just a case of some people look good in blues and some don't.  So having alternatives is a good thing.  But yes I will admit that the current corporate uniform isn't the greatest.  I think the TPU was a great idea just horribly implemented.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Have you asked?   No really....have you submitted a white paper to the NUC with your concerns and possible solutions?
That's not too much to ask, is it?

IF, IF, I post my White Paper for the third time, will you please review and critique?  I am asking this as a favour from a former enlisted ANG Airman and current CAP Captain to a retired USAF SNCO and current CAP SNCO.

It is very well organised, I think - I have done technical and business writing and am experienced with drafting proposals.  It has explanations for all my positions and photographs, phase-in/phase-out times (taken from my experience in systems analysis), and is relatively short and more minimum-change than you might think.

I am asking this to see if, in YOUR opinion, it would stand any sort of chance.  I would not ask for your opinion if I did not want it.

We did have a nicer corporate uniform however it went away because of the it's creator.  If that had gone through the correct vetting process it might still exist in some shape or form today.

But it does not, unfortunately, and it is seeming to become The Uniform Topic That Shall Not Be Named.

[Devil Doc]

I am not saying everyone should be in Blues, But....

There are people with legitimate Weight Issues, IE: Disability. If they can wear the uniform properly nice and neat and pressed etc, why should they not?